Recording to new Powerbook G4/DP/Fireface - Tips on improving rec performance?

[DavidKmusic]

I'd appreciate any tips on improving recording and playback performance in DP 4.6 recording to a new G4 powerbook 1.5 (w/1.5G RAM). My interface is an RME Fireface. I feel like I should be able to record more tracks, use more plug-ins before running into gliches and pops, etc. I'd appreciate any tips on settings in DP and/or increasing the RAM, or purchasing a desktop, whatever people think will improve performance.

I usually track with the buffer size set at 128 or 256 in the DP Hardware Driver (to reduce latency) and play back at 512. This presents another issue, since switiching the settings means you have to wait for virtual plug-ins like BFD to reload the drum kit, etc.

A typical project for me consists of 10 to 16 mono tracks, sometimes one to four MIDI instrument tracks (BFD or Symphonic Orchestra) and I use plug-in effects very scarcely since I do all my mixing at larger studios. I am recording projects at both 16 and 24 bit.

Thanks

[theblue1]

Well, a desktop machine could give you a big boost in processing power. The new G5 towers pack a lot more power than your G4 PB...

Others will no doubt have specific suggestions (and I'm not a Mac guy) but from my understanding, you will probably be well served (if sticking with your PB) by using a dedicated outboard FW audio drive. That said, I'll leave it to others to give you the specifics on that and other issues.

But at least this post will give the thread a bump.

[Geert van den Berg]

If you use the Fireface you have the advantage that via Totalmix you can have near zero latency while recording.

The other advantage is that you can can leave your buffersettings at 1024 which should give you the recording power you are missing. Another advantage, you don't have to switch buffersizes between recording and mixing.

A handy thing of DP is that you can disable the audio patchthru while recording live instruments. This way you will only hear the tracks you are recording while you press play but when you press record the tracks won't sound, but you can still hear them via Totalmix. This is a pretty good way for doing punch-ins.

[DavidKmusic]

Thanks, I just recently picked up the Fireface and it's clear that I'm not taking advantage of all it's features. So, Let me see if I'm understanding you. I can set the Buffers to 1024 in DP and monitor input sources straight from the Fireface without any latency? I understand the concept of disabling the Audio Through function, as you suggested, so that I don't hear the latent signal. But if I'm monitoring prerecorded tracks through Outputs 1 and 2 on the Fireface, I'm just not clear on how I would also directly monitor sources going into the Fireface while sending them to disk as well. But I'm guessing the manual might help me figure that out?

[Geert van den Berg]

Yes you will have to read the manual for a better understanding of Totalmix.

But in short. In the view section in at right top corner of the screen select submix (probably it's already on), this makes operating totalmix very easy.

The top row consists of input channels, the second row are the outputs of the software you are using (the outputs from the RME driver, which you select in your software of choice). And the bottom row are the physical outputs of your interface.

Adjusting any of the input faders will have no effect on your recording, your software is more or less pre-fader.

As you will see the bottom row is greyed out for the most part if submix is selected. Most likely output 1 and 2 are not greyed out. If you click on output 3 and 4 you will see that 1 and 2 are now greyed out. In this submix mode the faders represent which signals are routed to which physical output.

So most likely the faders in the middle row 1 and 2 will be up so you can hear what's coming from output 1 and 2 of your software.

I can't remember the default of the mixer anymore, but if you have for example patched a microphone in input 7, then raising the input fader of channel 7 in the top row will now route that signal to the currently selected output. (Remember that there is both an input 7 on the front and at the back, you can select which you want to use in the Fireface setttings window. There's also the setting to switch on phantom power)

And then if you make a record track in DP and also select input 7, if you would not disable audio patch thru in DP you would now hear the signal phasing because it's doubled and the roundtrip via the software is longer then via Totalmix.

[DavidKmusic]

I'm getting a much better grip on how to use Totalmix now. This is great for creating different headphone mixes as well, and also mixing in other inputs such as scratch tracks or a click to the monitor mix. I'm used to doing everything within the DAW and not really having mixing capabilities like this. Or, at least, I hadn't figured out how to get them. Now I just have to mess around with finding the optimal performance settings for DP, and BFD. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

If I'm still finding that I'm not getting the processing power for the sessions I want to do, do you think a G5 tower would make a significant difference? If so, what should I be looking for in terms of processor speed, RAM, etc? I've been in the powerbook realm for so long that I don't even understand the specs on the towers. I could also max out the RAM in the powerbook but I don't know how significant that would be. I've got a 1.512 in there right now but I can put up to 2G.

Thanks

Sincerely

DK

[Geert van den Berg]

I've noticed that DP becomes a little snappier when you have more RAM, but since you got plenty in your machine already I don't think that the extra 512 is going to make much of a difference.

Offcourse a G5 will give you more power and surely enough for what you want to do. But maybe your machine might give you just enough power if you aren't going to run many plugins. Your machine should do 16 tracks with ease, even 32, but it's the software instuments which use a lot of power.

Offcourse if you are playing and recording MIDI for your software instruments then you still want to have the buffersettings set to a lower figure. Then your machine might run short of power, but after you're recorded and perfectioned your MIDI, you could freeze the software instrument. So you might only need to have one instrument active at a time.

It's a bit of a workaround, if it's too much hassle, you should purchase a new machine if budget allows, but with some trickery that might not be necessary. I would always opt for the fastest Mac you can buy. It's not the same as with PC's to buy the 2nd best. I think this will give you more satisfaction for a longer term. But as most current machine will give you the power you need it might be more interesting to look at a slightly older model dual 2gHz. These go for very interesting prices.

Right now, if you can delay your purchase I would wait a bit and see what Apple and Intel are going to deliver next year. Most likely the Power Mac's will either be end of next year or slightly after that. But I still would like to see how the new powerbooks perform and also if users have many complications with the software.

If you're running a company and really need the faster machine then there's not a reason to delay the purchase, because it will pay itself back quite fast.

[6strings]

Are you recording to a fast external hard drive?

Do you have "processor performance" (under energy saver control panel) set to "maximum" (not minimum, which is the default for battery usage)?

Doesn't BFD need an external drive for itself? I understand BFD can be pretty CPU/bandwidth intensive by itself.

Is it CPU or I/O bandwidth you're running short on? If it's bandwidth, then you might look into some sort of PCI card expansion chassis so you can unload some of the burdon on your Firewire bus. If it's CPU, then keep looking into ways to further optimize BFD. (use other drums sampler for recording, then freeze BFD tracks during mixing?)

Yes, a G5 is a whole 'nother experience, but it's there's no way in hell you'll want to move one out of your studio for a live or mobile gig. They're wicked heavy! (if you get one, buy Applecare, so they will service it at your house!!)

Just some things to consider...

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by 6strings

Are you recording to a fast external hard drive?

Do you have "processor performance" (under energy saver control panel) set to "maximum" (not minimum, which is the default for battery usage)?


Is it CPU or I/O bandwidth you're running short on? If it's bandwidth, then you might look into some sort of PCI card expansion chassis so you can unload some of the burdon on your Firewire bus.

Yes, a G5 is a whole 'nother experience, but it's there's no way in hell you'll want to move one out of your studio for a live or mobile gig. Just some things to consider...

I was recording to a firewire 400 drive (7200?), with BFD running on the local. It made no difference in performance, and I've read that whatever benefit you get from writing to an external drive is negated somehow by the limitations of Firewire. Perhaps getting a Firwire 800 drive and using that port on my powerbook could make the difference.

I do have the performance settings on maximum, and yes, BFD is very taxing on the CPU. I believe it's CPU power that is the issue, but I'm not sure. How would I best determine that?

As for mobile recording. I also have an old Motu 828, and I take along my Great River pre for on-location stuff. It would be a nightmare to try to bring my full rack of stuff anywhere, so I'm not worried about the tower not being portable. I will take your advice on the Applecare though, If I go that route.

thanks so much

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

But as most current machines will give you the power you need it might be more interesting to look at a slightly older model dual 2gHz. These go for very .

This is what I was thinking. There are a bunch of dual G5s on Ebay. Just the CPU without any accessories or OS. Which is all I'd need as I already have an external cinema display that I use with my powerbook and I already have all the software I need, etc. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for in terms of RAM and such in those machines. I don't know how 512MB performs in a G5 dual 2.0 vs. how it performs in a G4 1.5. I don't know a front side processor from a back side, from my elbow. I'm just not familiar with the machines so I'm trying to get educated on the functionality of these specs as they pertain to recording music.

Music I understand, computers...eh.

Thanks

[6strings]

Originally Posted by DavidKmusic

I was recording to a firewire 400 drive (7200?), with BFD running on the local. It made no difference in performance, and I've read that whatever benefit you get from writing to an external drive is negated somehow by the limitations of Firewire. Perhaps getting a Firwire 800 drive and using that port on my powerbook could make the difference.

I do have the performance settings on maximum, and yes, BFD is very taxing on the CPU. I believe it's CPU power that is the issue, but I'm not sure. How would I best determine that?

I'm not sure where you heard that bit about the Firewire limitation, but that's a crock (unless you're multi-tracking @192khz!). Don't record audio to the OS drive. Even if your problem is CPU, not bandwidth, multi-tracking to your OS can cause trouble down the line. Use and external drive with Journaling set to off.

Anyways, you can tell how your CPU is doing by launching the Activity Monitor app (utilities folder). Enable the floating CPU monitor window and keep your eye on that while you work.

Good luck!

[6strings]

Originally Posted by DavidKmusic

I'm just not sure what I'm looking for in terms of RAM and such in those machines. I don't know how 512MB performs in a G5 dual 2.0 vs. how it performs in a G4 1.5.

A dual 2 will blow the doors off any G4 (I have a Powerbook 1.25 and a dual 2.0 to compare). You should save up for at least 2 Gig of Ram for the machine to really sing though! 512 is just enough for the OS to run comfortably and your music apps will be punching that virtual memory right off the bat with only minimum RAM. Yuck! Add a 2nd SATA internal drive for media and you're set for life! (or at least a couple years)