Using Outboard latency/phasing

AndrewG · 9th November 2005, 09:12 PM

Hi All,

I'm Using Samplitude 8.2 pro and am trying integrate ouboard compression/eq/reverb. I've been struggling a bit.

I patch it all in, run sound through the system and compare the original to the newly recorded wave to determine the system latency.

In my case it's seems to be 28 samples. Even when I match up the waves there seems to be some phasing? Is that normal? When doing anything in parallel are you always going to have some phasing effect?

Ae there any plugins to make the process easier?

Any help on integrating outboard would be appreciated. I want to be able to have 4 outboard compressors running in parallel for drums, guitars, bass and vocals.

Thanks,

Andrew

**Geert van den Berg** · 9th November 2005, 11:26 PM

There shouldn't be any noticable phasing issues when doing parallel compression. Before I had the RME Fireface I found it extremely difficult to achieve a result I liked.

What software and hardware are you using? Maybe someone with a similar setup can help.

True North · 10th November 2005, 12:07 AM

Hi Andrew,

I have a Digi002 Rig and I experience noticeable latency issues with my system as well. I know what you mean buy phasing issues on Parallel compression. I was just on another thread a couple of days and someone gave me a workaround. The only problem is that I think the workaround only works for plug ins. I currently trying some tests on using the basic principles to use see if it works on a hardawre based compressor.

The ITB solution requires that you create two stereo drum bus groups (one of them compressed). Put your plug in on both buss groups and deactivate the plug on the channel that you want to be compressor free - this gets rid of the phasing issues.

I tried a similar workaround for hardware but on PT/LE you can't use i/o on more than one channel. PT automatically deactivates the i/o which may do the trick , I just haven't had time to test it.

I don't if what I just said makes any sense to you, but if you need any furhter clarification let me know, thanks.

AndrewG · 10th November 2005, 03:20 AM

Thanks for the replies - -

Samplitude has latency compensaton for the plugins so that's not a problem. It's when I send to outboard. Even though I'm compensating for the latency, it seems to be a little phasy and swishy sounding when mixed with the original.

I have a rosetta 800 and rme hdsp 9632. I'm sending my drums out to 2 urei/jbl 7110.

Vox to dbx 162

Guitars to RNLA

and Bass to dbx 119

Midlandmorgan · 10th November 2005, 01:18 PM

Are you hearing the phasing during the tracking part or playback? If during tracking, using Totalmix, turn down the main outs (sliders 1/2) and turn up the sliders going out....all of this on the second row of controls....

That should solve it...I fought that for a few days in Samplitude after getting my FireFace800, and this did the trick...don't forget, though, to mute/inactive the original signals if you don;t want them in the mix...if you DO want the originals blended parallel, you may have to slide the return tracks over a few samples to get perfect alignment....

Hope this was helpful...

AndrewG · 10th November 2005, 05:27 PM

Thanks on the totalmix tip. That part I struggled through and figured out. I can get things to work fine as inserts, but I want to do all my stuff in parallel.

It seems like even when I move stuff over and line it up sample for sample, it sounds like there something going on. It's slight, but you can really hear it in the cymbals.

When I move one way or the other it seems worse, so I'm nearly positive that I'm lining it up correctly.

Is anyone doing outboard parallel compression with a track ITB with samplitude?

hollywood · 10th November 2005, 09:27 PM

I'm not familiar with samplitude or your hardware at all, but is it possible to copy the signal to another track so that you have two identical tracks, send both tracks out of your D/A, route one to the compressor then to the A/D and then the other directly back into the A/D? You would have both tracks time aligned with each other, just not with the other tracks. Though, that shouldn't be noticable.

max cooper · 10th November 2005, 09:35 PM

I should think it would be better to spare the 'dry' track one more D to A to D trip.

There are a lot of ways you can have a reference if you're talking about syncing a track to itself. That kind of technology goes all the way back to clapper boards.

AndrewG · 10th November 2005, 11:54 PM

I'm able to line up the waves manually if I record something, but I need to be able to monitor properly.

One thing that seems strange is that the track that's going to outboard and back is actually ahead of the other tracks, not behind. Is that right? Samplitude has record offset that you can set up manually to adjust for latency, but it's pushing the tracks in the wrong direction.

The tracks are 28 samples apart. When I put 28 into record offset, the tracks become 56 samples apart because the recorded track is already 28 samples ahead.

I must be doing something wrong here.

**Geert van den Berg** · 11th November 2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG

because the recorded track is already 28 samples ahead.

I recall having the same problem (a track already recorded sent out of the interface and then routed to a new track or aux was 48 samples ahead.), but I didn't find out what it caused. Anyone know the answer?

AndrewG · 11th November 2005, 04:28 PM

I checked over my record/monitoring settings and they all seem normal --

AndrewG · 12th November 2005, 05:34 PM

I changed my audio settings from ASIO to MME and it fixed the problem. Audio going to outboard and coming back to the computer is now late as it should be.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Outboard gear latency	Hope209	Music computers	0	8th June 2006 06:53 PM
Sonar 4 outboard latency compensation	wilkinswp	So much gear, so little time!	4	11th April 2006 09:44 PM
Bus&outboard Latency..digi002	Dog_Chao_Chao	So much gear, so little time!	6	30th January 2006 08:16 PM
latency using outboard with digital desks	mac black	So much gear, so little time!	17	10th October 2005 08:07 PM
Latency using outboard with Daw?	Charlie-O	Music computers	7	2nd October 2004 03:00 PM

9th November 2005, 09:12 PM	#1
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	Using Outboard latency/phasing Hi All, I'm Using Samplitude 8.2 pro and am trying integrate ouboard compression/eq/reverb. I've been struggling a bit. I patch it all in, run sound through the system and compare the original to the newly recorded wave to determine the system latency. In my case it's seems to be 28 samples. Even when I match up the waves there seems to be some phasing? Is that normal? When doing anything in parallel are you always going to have some phasing effect? Ae there any plugins to make the process easier? Any help on integrating outboard would be appreciated. I want to be able to have 4 outboard compressors running in parallel for drums, guitars, bass and vocals. Thanks, Andrew

10th November 2005, 12:07 AM	#3
True North Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Richmond Hill, Ontario (Canada) Posts: 2,478	Hi Andrew, I have a Digi002 Rig and I experience noticeable latency issues with my system as well. I know what you mean buy phasing issues on Parallel compression. I was just on another thread a couple of days and someone gave me a workaround. The only problem is that I think the workaround only works for plug ins. I currently trying some tests on using the basic principles to use see if it works on a hardawre based compressor. The ITB solution requires that you create two stereo drum bus groups (one of them compressed). Put your plug in on both buss groups and deactivate the plug on the channel that you want to be compressor free - this gets rid of the phasing issues. I tried a similar workaround for hardware but on PT/LE you can't use i/o on more than one channel. PT automatically deactivates the i/o which may do the trick , I just haven't had time to test it. I don't if what I just said makes any sense to you, but if you need any furhter clarification let me know, thanks. __________________ "In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey" - Beck, Loser "I do use compressors/limiters but not for controlling dynamics, I use EQ for that!" Jp22 (damn I miss him) "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -- Will Durant, historian (1885-1981) "I try to get a boom out of the bass drum, in one of my albums, my CD, boom, I try to get that big boom, I could not get a big boom, I paid bucks, and could not get the boom" - Recording Expert, Tad Donley

10th November 2005, 01:18 PM	#5
Midlandmorgan Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Midland TX Posts: 1,079	Are you hearing the phasing during the tracking part or playback? If during tracking, using Totalmix, turn down the main outs (sliders 1/2) and turn up the sliders going out....all of this on the second row of controls.... That should solve it...I fought that for a few days in Samplitude after getting my FireFace800, and this did the trick...don't forget, though, to mute/inactive the original signals if you don;t want them in the mix...if you DO want the originals blended parallel, you may have to slide the return tracks over a few samples to get perfect alignment.... Hope this was helpful... __________________ Ken Morgan Wireline Studio Midland, TX Don't Blame Me, I Just Recorded What You Played

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

9th November 2005, 11:26 PM	#2
Geert van den Berg Mac Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 2,579	There shouldn't be any noticable phasing issues when doing parallel compression. Before I had the RME Fireface I found it extremely difficult to achieve a result I liked. What software and hardware are you using? Maybe someone with a similar setup can help.

10th November 2005, 03:20 AM	#4
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	Thanks for the replies - - Samplitude has latency compensaton for the plugins so that's not a problem. It's when I send to outboard. Even though I'm compensating for the latency, it seems to be a little phasy and swishy sounding when mixed with the original. I have a rosetta 800 and rme hdsp 9632. I'm sending my drums out to 2 urei/jbl 7110. Vox to dbx 162 Guitars to RNLA and Bass to dbx 119

10th November 2005, 05:27 PM	#6
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	Thanks on the totalmix tip. That part I struggled through and figured out. I can get things to work fine as inserts, but I want to do all my stuff in parallel. It seems like even when I move stuff over and line it up sample for sample, it sounds like there something going on. It's slight, but you can really hear it in the cymbals. When I move one way or the other it seems worse, so I'm nearly positive that I'm lining it up correctly. Is anyone doing outboard parallel compression with a track ITB with samplitude?

10th November 2005, 09:27 PM	#7
hollywood Gear Head Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 50	I'm not familiar with samplitude or your hardware at all, but is it possible to copy the signal to another track so that you have two identical tracks, send both tracks out of your D/A, route one to the compressor then to the A/D and then the other directly back into the A/D? You would have both tracks time aligned with each other, just not with the other tracks. Though, that shouldn't be noticable.

10th November 2005, 09:35 PM	#8
max cooper Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: tx Posts: 8,819	I should think it would be better to spare the 'dry' track one more D to A to D trip. There are a lot of ways you can have a reference if you're talking about syncing a track to itself. That kind of technology goes all the way back to clapper boards.

10th November 2005, 11:54 PM	#9
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	I'm able to line up the waves manually if I record something, but I need to be able to monitor properly. One thing that seems strange is that the track that's going to outboard and back is actually ahead of the other tracks, not behind. Is that right? Samplitude has record offset that you can set up manually to adjust for latency, but it's pushing the tracks in the wrong direction. The tracks are 28 samples apart. When I put 28 into record offset, the tracks become 56 samples apart because the recorded track is already 28 samples ahead. I must be doing something wrong here.

11th November 2005, 04:28 PM	#11
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	I checked over my record/monitoring settings and they all seem normal --

12th November 2005, 05:34 PM	#12
AndrewG Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 43	I changed my audio settings from ASIO to MME and it fixed the problem. Audio going to outboard and coming back to the computer is now late as it should be.