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Michael Brauer buss technique in Cubase SX??
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illacov
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7th November 2005
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Question Michael Brauer buss technique in Cubase SX??

I was wondering if a person could build their own multiband compression scheme, based on Michael's method of using multiple busses.

The thing is, I dont think a person could route the same track to 3 busses and get 3 distinct tracks without still having to deal with the original tracks sound being blended in, since if you mute it (trying to hear just the 3 busses of lows, mids, and highs) you would lose the routed audio to the 3 busses.

(Would i have to mixdown the track I wanted to do this with and then copy it 3 times??? Then set those 3 tracks to the frequencies? Would there be phase problems???)


Does anyone know if you can do it where you would send the audio to 3 different busses for lows, mids and highs and be able to hear those 3 busses? Instead of the original track?

What Im trying to do here is take all of my tracks and send them to a buss and then have specific compressors for specific frequencies. Like using GCO only for the lows 400 hz and down, Voxengo Crunchessor for the mids 400 hz to 4000 khz and Maybe Magneto for the highs or GPP something along those lines.

I have a theory i havent tried yet, that if i sent the audio on 3 fx sends to 3 different group tracks and then had them lo passed, band passed and hi passed that i would get tracks of 3 different frequency ranges, but then what i would do is have them routed POST fader, so that i would only hear the effected audio routed onto the track instead of the original sound blended with the effect.

Do you think this is how i would get this to work? Does anyone have any better ideas??

Thanks for your help
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8th November 2005
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I cant answer your whole query but I can mention that I have tried the multi compression method. Two things I noticed.

1. Doing it ITB using plugins didnt have the desired effect. Lack of flavour/excitement.....just didnt sound that great regardless of what I did and what plugs I used.

2. summing externally and inserting some decent outboard (not as good as michaels) sounded MUCH better. I was able to get some very nice unexpected results.

I only have three stereo compressors available and none of them are really suited to this job but I can hear that if I had some better outboard this could get very interesting. I had one stereo compressor set up for slamming and added a lot of eq and fx. Just sending random stuff to this buss came up with some very interesting results with th least expected source material.

Definitely worth trying out but I think a good console and great outboard is needed to get that 'sound'
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8th November 2005
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What's the problem with your cancept?

Three pre fader Aux sends
Mute the original channel
Filter the Effect channels
Insert the compressors
route them all to one group


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8th November 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisac
I cant answer your whole query but I can mention that I have tried the multi compression method. Two things I noticed.

1. Doing it ITB using plugins didnt have the desired effect. Lack of flavour/excitement.....just didnt sound that great regardless of what I did and what plugs I used.

2. summing externally and inserting some decent outboard (not as good as michaels) sounded MUCH better. I was able to get some very nice unexpected results.

I only have three stereo compressors available and none of them are really suited to this job but I can hear that if I had some better outboard this could get very interesting. I had one stereo compressor set up for slamming and added a lot of eq and fx. Just sending random stuff to this buss came up with some very interesting results with th least expected source material.

Definitely worth trying out but I think a good console and great outboard is needed to get that 'sound'
Hey Chrisac what ITB plugins did you try it out with ?
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8th November 2005
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Thumbs up Okay Part 2

I found out my theory was correct and plus The Sweetener had already confirmed it. Now the question arises that if this method of mixing is a possibility, what are some compression plug ins that a person might suggest for say low frequencies or a compression plug in that is better suited for mids or a compression plug in better suited for highs???

So far ive tried this technique out with GCO, GPP and BuzzMaxi2. But im sure people who are doing things in the box are using plugs to better success than i am.

So far i havent gotten a chance to try this on a full mix, only on a mixdown that wasnt mastered and it sounded "interesting" if thats a clue as to my suprise and also to my desire for yet a better sound out of the whole ordeal. If anyone can provide some more suggestions on ways to optimize or get better results out of this process then please be my guest.

I will comment that the mix sounded alot flatter and less alive before i tried out the triple buss technique on it. However i think that I should use a smaller frequencie range for the 400 hz up range and stop it at 1500 khz and then create a fourth buss for the range of 1500 khz to 4000 khz, between the 400 hz to 1500 khz and the 4000 khz to 20000 khz.

If anybody thinks that I might be going about this the wrong way please give me some feed back or pointers etc.

Thanks for the replies this thread is getting interesting!!
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12th November 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marky
Hey Chrisac what ITB plugins did you try it out with ?

I was trying out all my plugin compressors. I got the best results from the following.

Voxengo Soniformer
Sonalksis EQ + compression
Waves LINMB+ Waves Phase EQ
Hydratone EQ + Voxengo Crunchessor+Subtle Ambient Verb+a delay again subtle.

The fourth multichain was the one I got the best things happening. Just straight compression wasnt really doing all that much that I liked.

The better results were from this

1. Distressors *2
2. RNC comp
3. MPDC
4. Ensoniq DP4 (effext box with some interesting compression stuff)

As you can see my outaboard isnt really suited to these tasks but still the results were much better. I could hear that given comps more suited to the job I could achieve some great results. Add some happening EQ boxes and bobs your uncle.

Of the 4 it wa steh distressors and the DP4 which gave me a sound with character. I wasnt going for transparency.

Definitely worth a try though

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12th November 2005
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I don't have or use Cubase, but I wondered if it's possible to route a track to more than one group at the same time, or to a group and also the masterfader at the same time. Part of Michael's approach is that it's in parallel. As I read here it's just dividing intruments into groups and then to the master. I stand corrected if I misunderstood anyone, I am just trying to find out something about the bussing possibilities in Cubase/Nuendo. I know it's possible to route to different groups via aux sends, but that defeats the purpose a bit.
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12th November 2005
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hi folks,

does michael do any freq-band separation before the comps in his busses ???
I don´t think so......I thought these were just different "flavours"
...e.g. the "neve-comp & pultec bus" for the top-end.... means:
he´s boosting the HF on the pultec to get an instant HF-bump on everything that´s (maybe additionally) routed to this bus! I guess he´s not cutting everything below (whatever..lets say) 4kHz e.g.

..... am I wrong ???

will soon try this all in Logic with UAD,URS and some outboard, when the place is finally done.........geeeeezz some more weeks


cheers tom
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12th November 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude
hi folks,

does michael do any freq-band separation before the comps in his busses ???
I don´t think so......I thought these were just different "flavours"
...e.g. the "neve-comp & pultec bus" for the top-end.... means:
he´s boosting the HF on the pultec to get an instant HF-bump on everything that´s (maybe additionally) routed to this bus! I guess he´s not cutting everything below (whatever..lets say) 4kHz e.g.

..... am I wrong ???

will soon try this all in Logic with UAD,URS and some outboard, when the place is finally done.........geeeeezz some more weeks


cheers tom
Tom, Michael's approach is featured in a Tape Op article which is also posted on his website. www.mbrauer.com

direct link to the article
http://www.mbrauer.com/articles/tapeop.asp?pp=1

But maybe you already read this. It seems there is no frequency seperation going on.
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12th December 2005
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I had a chance to ask Michael this exact question at the gearslutz meeting - if this a Multiband separation we're talking about?
So the answer was IT IS NOT the idea.
I'm not a 100% sure if I got it right though,
but I think it's more about group stuff by color, character and
amount of compression.

Like a guitars group.
Drumz group.
Pads.
Bass, kik, sner lead voc he usually sending its own way.
But after that some of that might go(or not) to one of the groups too.

Sort of.

One of his phrase was like,
" I'm using compressors as a color/character instead of EQ"
and
" I'm not necessarily using actual compression when sending signal to it"

Personally I didn't have a chance to play with this yet,
but I think U can't completely understand it, till U touch it with your own hands.

I just remember some times ago I tried once this stuff with loops,
without even knowing this method,
and it was so different, so I thought it's not right to do things like this.
It just made me scary I guess..


There is a phase game involved in it too.
Now I think - it's very interesting potentials in this method.
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12th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov
I was wondering if a person could build their own multiband compression scheme, based on Michael's method of using multiple busses.

The thing is, I dont think a person could route the same track to 3 busses and get 3 distinct tracks without still having to deal with the original tracks sound being blended in, since if you mute it (trying to hear just the 3 busses of lows, mids, and highs) you would lose the routed audio to the 3 busses.

Mt. Olympus Records
Interesting concept, i think it can be done as long as monitoring is done by SX instead of hardware.
I´m going to try it.
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12th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisac
I was trying out all my plugin compressors. I got the best results from the following.

Voxengo Soniformer
Sonalksis EQ + compression
Waves LINMB+ Waves Phase EQ
Hydratone EQ + Voxengo Crunchessor+Subtle Ambient Verb+a delay again subtle.
i gotta agree on the hydratone. the urs is good too... i also tried a bunch of compressors and the best results came from the following:

psp mixpressor
psp mastercomp
compadre beatpuncher
kjaerhus gco
waves rencomp

i couldn't get the sonalksis or voxengo marquis to sound as good as the others - maybe i didn't spend enough time with them...

illacov: have you tried this out yet? if not let me know. i've been doing this in sx3 - if you like, i could show you how my routing is set up. take care.
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12th December 2005
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hey when you guys make busses in SX, why is it that when I make a bus later on in a mix, and I want to route it somwhere else (like another bus) my options are limited and won't show all the groups.

Like I'd love to be able to route my reverb send channel to another channel with a different effect on it. But when I open up the little routing slot it just lets me go straight to the 2 bus and shows no other groups i can route too.
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12th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab
hey when you guys make busses in SX, why is it that when I make a bus later on in a mix, and I want to route it somwhere else (like another bus) my options are limited and won't show all the groups.

Like I'd love to be able to route my reverb send channel to another channel with a different effect on it. But when I open up the little routing slot it just lets me go straight to the 2 bus and shows no other groups i can route too.
the thing with cubase is group channels can only be routed to other group channels with higher numbers. page 236 in the cubase manual explains this a little better...

a good idea might be to set up your group channels in this order:

1) subgroups / stems
2) fx group channels (like delays etc)
3) compressor group channels

then, you'll be able to route all your outputs to the compressors and mixbus. hope this helps...
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12th December 2005
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man, thats a great idea..i was thinking it was like that the way it did things in order..but then i thought "no way, thats not right"..guess it is ;(


so if you decide later on in a mix that you want to add an effect send or something are you screwed? because i work that way a lot.


in the future, ill do what you said though...i need to make a new template i guess..uggh.
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12th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab
man, thats a great idea..i was thinking it was like that the way it did things in order..but then i thought "no way, thats not right"..guess it is ;(


so if you decide later on in a mix that you want to add an effect send or something are you screwed? because i work that way a lot.


in the future, ill do what you said though...i need to make a new template i guess..uggh.
yeah, it took me a little trial and error to figure out how the output routing worked. it might be a good idea to make a few extra aux group channels just to leave yourself some headroom, though...
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13th December 2005
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definitley..thanks for that info. I watched 3 DVD tutorials, ran through the manual and I still missed that.
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13th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab
definitley..thanks for that info. I watched 3 DVD tutorials, ran through the manual and I still missed that.
no problem.

btw, it's only group channels that behave like this. you can always add fx channels in any order you like... thumbsup
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13th December 2005
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I tried to recreate MB's set up somewhat ITB using PT plug ins but couldnt get past plug in phase issues.. (despite time aligning them to sample accuracy) So I gave up...

I do mean to give it a go with hardware outboard one day though!
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13th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I tried to recreate MB's set up somewhat ITB using PT plug ins but couldn't get past plug in phase issues.. (despite time aligning them to sample accuracy) So I gave up...
I read somewhere here actually,
U can insert the same plug twice -
in to source track and a group track,
and mute your plug on source track.
Means one plug is active only,
but delay time would be the same.
Know what I mean?
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13th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abit
I read somewhere here actually ,
U can insert the same plug twice -
in source track and group track,
and mute your plug on source track.
Means one plug is active only,
but delay time would be the same.
Know what I mean?
that's true, but doesn't the new version of protools have a plugin delay compensation plug? i thought i read about that somewhere...
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Not useing PT anymore.
Steinberg have dcomp for a while.
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13th December 2005
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Yeah assuming you have delay compensation, why not just set up an Aux send with the compressor on the aux channel. Then you just send 100% to the Aux and you should have a fader on the AUX channel to control its level in the mix. That way if you want to send it to 3 seperate groups of AUXs you can. If you don't want it on the master fader any more then just change its channel output assignment from whatever is the master bus (lets assume master is 1 and 2) and change it to say channel 3. Then you don't have to worry about the woes of muting.

Of course if you can't have umlimited Aux sends you're screwed.

Hope all that makes sense!

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14th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezoboy
Yeah assuming you have delay compensation, why not just set up an Aux send with the compressor on the aux channel. Then you just send 100% to the Aux and you should have a fader on the AUX channel to control its level in the mix. That way if you want to send it to 3 seperate groups of AUXs you can. If you don't want it on the master fader any more then just change its channel output assignment from whatever is the master bus (lets assume master is 1 and 2) and change it to say channel 3. Then you don't have to worry about the woes of muting.
that's one way to do it... fwiw, i've got my routing set up like this:
individual tracks -> subgroups -> compressor busses -> mix buss

it seems to work pretty well for sending more than one group of instruments to the same compressor. for parallel compression, it's easy to use an aux send to route some of the dry signal to the mix buss (or another compressor)...

btw, are any of you guys using "auto-makeup gain" on your compressors or are you setting the output manually? would there be much of a difference? any other ideas?
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10th April 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junior View Post
any other ideas?
See the Sound on Sound April 2009 issue!
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11th April 2009
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Talking

Wow Welcome to 2009 haha.

I don't even use Cubase SX anymore.

I acutally don't even care about this technique to be honest with you, I have a Mastering Engineer now.

As far as the Michael Brauer spin on stuff, I have way more tricks up my sleeve now for parallel processing than this thread which started nearly 4 years ago.

Jesus I used to be this dumb??

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11th April 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
As far as the Michael Brauer spin on stuff, I have way more tricks up my sleeve now for parallel processing than this thread which started nearly 4 years ago.
Parallel processing/multing seems to work for Tony Maserati... check out:
Mix Magazine
Gearslutz Q & A session

Any tips & tricks you want to share?
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11th April 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBlizz View Post
Parallel processing/multing seems to work for Tony Maserati... check out:
Mix Magazine
Gearslutz Q & A session

Any tips & tricks you want to share?
Folding back a copy of the mix that's passed thru analog pres back upon itself to taste.

Hitting tape after tracking to digital helps to alter the tone positively during post production etc...

I usually just do a nice foldback thru a preamp and mix it in with the original mix. This also coincides with me mixing OTB though. But folding back a mix is a old school trick from what I've heard. Helps to futz around with the beef. Usually I'm hitting transformers when I'm using the preamp nowadays. But before it was probably opamp distortion haha. Not anymore though.

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12th April 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
hey when you guys make busses in SX, why is it that when I make a bus later on in a mix, and I want to route it somwhere else (like another bus) my options are limited and won't show all the groups.

Like I'd love to be able to route my reverb send channel to another channel with a different effect on it. But when I open up the little routing slot it just lets me go straight to the 2 bus and shows no other groups i can route too.

I came into that when I used SX, I ended up making a template with a crap load of group tracks right off the bat. If you make a ton of them from the start of the project you will have them as options for later use in the drop down menu. Like you said if you add them down the road one at a time you don't get that option.

that was my work around with SX and group tracks anyway hope it helps.
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