Waves CLA Signature Plugin Released.

[Mho]

Originally Posted by hiccup

The CLA vocal reverb is based on the L480 delayed plate preset. (well basically, that's what he uses, so the intention of the CLA-Vocal plugin was to emulate that...)..so you can either try to emulate his emulation of the actual gear, or just try to emulate the actual thing..get the lexicon native reverb bundle and you'll be close.

The delay is not ping pong. It's a left/right offset. Echoboy is the only reverb which i know does this, although you can do it manually with 2 mono delay plugs.
Basically, he calculates the 1/4 or 1/8 note delay times in ms, then sets a few ms longer for left, and a few ms shorter for the right channel (or vice versa), so you get a nice 'stereo' sounding delay. It's all done on the fly. I think the range is from 5ms to 25ms offset depending on the song, and how 'wide' a delay is required.

Thank you for the tip! I have the Lexicon Native Bundle. I have just tried every preset on the Plates trying to find a starting point... none of them sounds similar... Not better or worse, simply different.

I have found that Lex Plate > Large Halls > Any preset (dark setting) with predelay about 140 ms, sounds in the ballpark. Anyway, I would love to find something even closer, just for the sake of it, or knowing what it is happening. Any hints??

[Szorn]

Got the whole bundle from a friend.
First impression, wow, it magically makes my tracks sound fantastic...

After 2 minutes...

Wow, this thing really takes the fun out of mixing. Annoyingly so. The different settings for each drum is really sweet but it tells me nothing. Oh, I'm using it on kick, I'll use the kick setting... What am I, seven years old? Changing from OH to snare doesn't change the sliders like a normal preset, but it changes the sound.... How do I know what it's doing, there's no attack rate, threshold or anything with the compression, just "Push", "Smack" and "Wall"... the last two are overkill. This is the problem with engineers today, we're spoon feeding people "one button" mixing. It's scary! Yes it sounds beefy and fat, but really, I'd much rather learn how to do that with EQ and compression that just clicking a plug-in that polishes my track for me. Man, if it takes me 5 years to master it then fine, but I'll be a better engineer for it. ("and you'll be poor and have no clients" I hear you cry...)

Call me old fashioned but I'm really not a fan of plug ins, I mix OTB and always have as soon as I got Cubase, I was totally disillusioned with having a mixer on screen... why not just... use a mixer.... why not just use a compressor... or a delay... atleast then you know you're changing the sound and not some secret unknown magic plug in. Yes, I am well aware if I was to get the drum sound of CLA drums in hardware I'd need vintage compressors and what not... but here's the thing. I WANT that stuff. I'm saving my pennies for stuff that will help me learn, not stuff that will give me an all in one plugin for a quick fix in the mix. I feel like I'm cheating by using this stuff. It's like getting some-one else to compress for you and you just tell them more or less till you like the sound.

Oh, don't get me started on the Kramer stuff, all that crap does is boost levels. I can barely hear the difference when I bring the level back down to the original signal.

I'm gonna buy a dbx 119, yeah it's cheap but I can afford it, and I will have way more fun using it. It's something I can always use and I can twiddle knobs with one hand while my head is perfectly positioned to LISTEN for the changes... I don't have to look at a screen the reposition my ears to hear if it makes any difference... then I'll probably save for an 1176 or a 160VU. But when the times comes I'll know how to use them.

Sorry for the rant fellas, it's been building for a while. I know a lot of you will disagree and to be honest I'd like to hear your thoughts, we're all in this game to become better engineers....

Right?

I'm a purist at heart, I guess I'm forcing myself up the learning curve and not sitting back and letting a plug in do it for me...

Here's the kicker... if I was recording for clients and not myself, I'd use CLA on every drum kit and sample everything so it sounds big and huge and shitty little bands can be proud their song sounds LOUD and BIG. But, like I said before... this is cheating myself out of learning to be a better sound engineer. Work with what you've got, don't rely on sampling and you'll get better at mic placement and mixing. YMWDV.

It may help you to know The Upsetter's "Super Ape" LP has been spinning on my turntable most of today...

[Grahamdwc]

Sad thing for me is, I have the CLA Unplugged plugin and it sounds really good on my acoustic tracks, better than what i can get without it if i'm to be totally honest.

I think they (signature series) can be put to great use by songwriters, who are not engineers or not have the relevant skills to get similar results with individual processors, but are trying to get good sounding tracks.

Graham

[Szorn]

This reminds me of a quote by Maynard James Keenan on taking LSD:
"The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug."

So, use CLA to get the sound you hear in your head (or on big name records) then spend ten years trying to get that sound without the use of the plug in.

And hopefully reach enlightenment in the process.

[tombuur]

Originally Posted by Szorn

So, use CLA to get the sound you hear in your head (or on big name records) then spend ten years trying to get that sound without the use of the plug in.

After several months with CLA I still love these plugins. And yes, it so easy just to switch off EQ, compression, delay or reverb and the substitute with another plugin trying to make it sound even better. That way I have a good starting point and at the same I learn to do it my own way.

I also have the JJP set which I sometimes try, but always end up removing again. Some of the Masserati stuff can be useful too, but nowhere near what CLA gives me. Only the HX plugin can be added to CLA Unplugged to get an even greater sound on acoustic guitar. I demoed the Kramer set, but only found the bass plugin useful.

[britune]

I bought the CLA Signature Series and have been using them for a few months. Here are my thoughts:

They give you an excellent starting points for sounds very quickly. When you put them on drums, you have great sounds in seconds. When I bought them, I had already mixed a song for a project. I re-mixed it with and CLA and it sounded about the same, maybe a shade better... but this happened in minutes. The original mix was perfected over many hours and many mixes over months.

PROS: All of the plugins sound excellent, and worth a lot more than the cost. Great sounding defaults, although you'll want to tweak them some. Very easy to use.

CONS: Compressors have no settings. You are stuck with the basic controls that are there. You will find your self using them in conjuction with other compressors to get the control you want. The EQs are at a set frequency and they only boost. You'll find yourself using other EQs with this to get the control you want. They delays and reverbs have no time settings. The plugins are very CPU heavy. Get ready to replace your PC.

Overall: Highly recommended way to quicker, easier mixes. A great value. I love the sound, but they are not very tweakable.

[Grahamdwc]

Hi britune, nice mini review and welcome to the forum.

I bought the Cla vocal and unplugged singles and find them really great and fast.

The vocal plug doesn't work for me every time but when it does it does so effortlessly.

I do find the unplugged plugin great!

Graham

[tombuur]

Having used CLA Signature for almost a year, I have to agree with the above post. I also tend to replace parts like EQ, compressor or reverb of the plugins.

Only recently it occured to me that the Masserati Signature use a lot less cpu than the CLA, like only 1/5. So I have now put Masserati on a lot of things in the composing/recording phase. They actually sound good too, particularly when also using the bus plugin which we miss with CLA.

[WarrenBeat]

Originally Posted by Szorn

This reminds me of a quote by Maynard James Keenan on taking LSD:
"The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug."

So, use CLA to get the sound you hear in your head (or on big name records) then spend ten years trying to get that sound without the use of the plug in.

And hopefully reach enlightenment in the process.

Thats why I dont mix with these plugins, I just enhace the sound a bit with them and then mix.

[WarrenBeat]

Originally Posted by tombuur

Having used CLA Signature for almost a year, I have to agree with the above post. I also tend to replace parts like EQ, compressor or reverb of the plugins.

Only recently it occured to me that the Masserati Signature use a lot less cpu than the CLA, like only 1/5. So I have now put Masserati on a lot of things in the composing/recording phase. They actually sound good too, particularly when also using the bus plugin which we miss with CLA.

I have the Maseratti GRP plugin too, great stuff

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by britune

CONS: Compressors have no settings. You are stuck with the basic controls that are there. You will find your self using them in conjuction with other compressors to get the control you want. The EQs are at a set frequency and they only boost.

Incorrect.

Yes the compressors have settings, but they are STUCK at CLAs preferred settings. You must remember, CLA uses a cookie cutter approach to mixing and doesnt mess with settings on his compressors. Instead....he swaps it out with a different compressor instead of tweaking dials.

He has 'Go to" pieces of compressors that are always his first choice for certain instruments, and each of those compressors have a setting that never changes. Its just the way he does things....and these plugins do exactly just that.

As far as EQs on his signature plugins only allow boosting.....not true either. I ran some white noise through each of his plugins and looked at a spectrum analyzer while messing with the EQ faders...

and they do both cut and boosts.....your only limited to the frequency of the cut and boost (his three colors, or edge/top/roof as it shows). Each of his plugins are fixed at certain frequencies depending on the instrument plugin. Some do Bell curves, some do shelving ......depends on the instrument plugin.

[tombuur]

Yes, that's how CLA mixes with hardware with fixed settings. And I guess that is why the CLA Signature plugins are the easiest to use because they are relatively fixed around settings that usually work.

As a contrast I can never figure out how to get a good sound from the JJP Signature plugins that I long have regretted I bought.

[WarrenBeat]

Originally Posted by tombuur

Yes, that's how CLA mixes with hardware with fixed settings. And I guess that is why the CLA Signature plugins are the easiest to use because they are relatively fixed around settings that usually work.

As a contrast I can never figure out how to get a good sound from the JJP Signature plugins that I long have regretted I bought.

I demo'ed JJP Guitars and it sounded horrible at first, but it just needs more tweaking than CLA Guitars. I think that's why JJP plugins have more faders and knobs.

I think JJP vocals is great though.

[Grahamdwc]

Originally Posted by WarrenBeat

I think JJP vocals is great though.

It really is!

Graham

[britune]

Originally Posted by bryan k

Incorrect.

Yes the compressors have settings, but they are STUCK at CLAs preferred settings. You must remember, CLA uses a cookie cutter approach to mixing and doesnt mess with settings on his compressors. Instead....he swaps it out with a different compressor instead of tweaking dials.

He has 'Go to" pieces of compressors that are always his first choice for certain instruments, and each of those compressors have a setting that never changes. Its just the way he does things....and these plugins do exactly just that.

As far as EQs on his signature plugins only allow boosting.....not true either. I ran some white noise through each of his plugins and looked at a spectrum analyzer while messing with the EQ faders...

and they do both cut and boosts.....your only limited to the frequency of the cut and boost (his three colors, or edge/top/roof as it shows). Each of his plugins are fixed at certain frequencies depending on the instrument plugin. Some do Bell curves, some do shelving ......depends on the instrument plugin.

If you call having NO CONTROL PRESETS as "settings", you live in a different universe than me. I call settings something that I can "set" or "change". I guess it makes you feel big about yourself by calling others incorrect, instead of understanding their post. Fact of the matter is, you cannot change the "settings" on the compressors' attack or release, they are PRESET. I do stand corrected on the EQs. I went and worked with them again, and you are correct. They do cut.

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by britune

I guess it makes you feel big about yourself by calling others incorrect, instead of understanding their post.

Im sorry, I didnt mean it to come out as "big'ish".

But you do have to understand what this plugin suite offers. Its simply CLA's exact signal chain and his habits. His "go to" compressors for instruments/tracks are the 1176, LA2A, LA3A, and a L1 Limiter (push/spank/wall respectively on his plugins). All those compressors don't have a attack/release control, with the exception of the 1176. This compressor I agree with you.....it sucks that you cant adjust its parameters on his plugin. BUT its serving you with the standard settings that CLA uses (medium-slow attack/Fast release) in which he never changes, they stay at those settings. The La3/La2 compressors (push/spank) really dont need more than the fader thats in his plugins suite. Works the same way as the hardware....push the fader up, get more compression.....pull it down....and it goes to no compression.

So the plugin suite I think is quite flexible.........IF and ONLY IF you want that 'cookie cutter' sound, like to work the same way CLA works, and you favor those particular compressors that they model....which dont have much of parameter controls to begin with (again, with the exception of the 1176)

[chrisjones]

Originally Posted by bryan k

Its simply CLA's exact signal chain

Not quite...

[Northstar]

As a musician progressively learning how to record and produce my music, I started using CLA plugins about a year ago to get better mixes right away while I focused on other aspects of making music. Since them I have been progressively learning/reading a lot about mixing and weaning myself off of the CLA plugs, using them when I really can't get a better sound without them (which is still about 75% of the time).

The only thing I'm fighting with is how they were "intended" to be used in the stereo field. If I wasn't using them, I would take my mono tracks and place them around the stereo field, with vocals, kick and bass in the center for example. If I wanted to widen the mono tracks I would either use delay/reverb bussed an panned off somewehre else, or would have recorded stereo tracks to begin with.

With CLA, my vocals, kick and bass become stereo. Is the "intention" to put the resulting left stereo track of my vocal, bass and kick panned complete left and the resulting right stereo track complete right? Or to pan them both to the middle? A little confused... I am just using my ears, which I guess is good, but wondering how other people deal with this, or know how they were intended to be used. I'm considering just chopping off one side of the stereo for things I want down the middle. For tracks I want spread out around the whole field I would keep the stereo.

Would appreciate any thoughts... thanks

[shreddinator]

I see a lot of guys complainning that these plugins take the fun out of mixing but I suppose then they will have more time to learn the finer techniques of writing songs and playing their musical instruments all that much better . Hip hip hooray I say .

[jimbridgman]

These plugins remind me why the saying "the dumbing down of America" exists.

These might be ok, for a beginner to learn how to hear the diffrence between what they have done and what one CLA, or Eddie Kramer, or JJ Puig, or Tony Maseratti does, but it is not going to teach you how to get that sound without those plugs.

I have Waves murcury in all the Rooms at my pro facility and at my home studio. I think these signature plugins suck. Yes you can control certain things, but not a whole lot.

The other issue is, do you really want your mixes to sound like they were done by one those mixing engineers? Don't you want to deveolp your own mixing sound and abilities?

Before there was computers in the studio, we used our ears, and did not really care too much what setting so and so used on thier compressors, did they print them to tape, or just use them during mixdown. We had to decide on our own, and did not have internet to find out.

Back then you really had the chance to make your own thing, my mixes sound nothing like Eddie Kramer, and he is one of my heros in recording and mixing. To me that is a good thing. Do my mixes maybe have some of his characteristics, yeah, because I have listened to his stuff my whole life, and his mixes sound good, but I want to pave my own way and make my own sound on a mix or recording.

I like to call using these plugins "cookie cutter mixing".

I will leave everyone with one last thought:
If everyone on this board used just these plugins for thier next project, what would make your album, or your clients album stand out from the rest? They will all sound like one of those engineers mixed ALL of the next albums that came out from all of our studios. How do you sell your sound to the studio, when they say "Wow I just recieved 12 other albums that have alot of the same tone and characteristics as yours, what makes this one any better than thiers?".

And yes I know I made a ton of assumptions here, like songwritting ability and performances being equal, and styles of music of the competition for a record contract being the same.

Just my thoughts on this subject.

Jim

[tombuur]

Originally Posted by jimbridgman

These plugins remind me why the saying "the dumbing down of America" exists.

....... (cut)

Just my thoughts on this subject.

Jim

Before I went to medical school long, long time ago I was a press photographer, so I know all the basics about setting aperture, shutter etc. myself. Don't even need at light meter to do it. Nevertheless with my new digital Nikon I usually just use an auto setting, and I get excellent pictures concentrating on the motive, lighting etc. When needed I can always use 100% manual settings.

I think these signature plugins work the same way for me. They give me quick results, and I can concentrate on the composition. If needed I can pull out EQ, Compressor etc. and put it together with a whole lot more work.

I actually do mix the signature plugins, and recently have become more fond of the Maserati ones that seem to use less cpu yet often sound great. Quite often I will insert all four signature series and then quickly audition which one sounds best for the track. Only JJP almost never comes out the winner.

[Northstar]

If I was a professional mixer I would probably never go near these plugins, except maybe to make a quick rough mix for a client. As someone who composes, performs, tracks, an mixes my stuff, they are a lifesaver as I can focus on the other parts and still get decent sounding mixes. Hopefully throughout the years I can get better at mixing, and I believe I have been as I am not using them exclusively anymore, but I could never compete with a professional mixer nor should I. If I was doing this in the hopes of being succesful professionally, I would hire a professional mixer. Seeing that I'm just doing it to make music that inspires me and maybe a few friends, that expense is not worth it. So for someone like me, these plugins are great and they really do sound good a lot of the time.

I'm not sure why professional mixers would get offended at that - I'm a physicist and I don't get offended when people come to me with questions about the latest crazy time-warping popular physics book!

I'm still hoping someone can answer my question about how these were "intended" to be used in the stereo field... anyone? Let's say you wanted to use them with an LCR philosphy?

[Jeezo]

I sent a track to one artist a produce ....she made a hook and a verese first for me to valid the vide and developpe or not , then i asked here to make another hook , she did , very good hook but i was not seeing this for this song (note that she send me vocals via internet) ....so i decided to make a track around the new hook !! 2 hours laters done , bounce and send !!! just put the the CLA Vocals for qa quik pre mix ...then i will go deep ( with my own vocal chain (not in that order) : Cl1 B , tridend , Veq 4, LA2A ,Rdesser , H delay, Tsar verb ect .....)if the track is validated !!

This the type of use i make and see a reason for this plugins existence ....Pro users on time rush , musician that have a ear and not ingeneer skills , and newbee that want to ear what a treated vocals sounds and what kind of effect we put on (delay , wideneer (via short delay), verb , type of Q, compressor , gates ..Ect ....

Mercury afficionado here ..

[GearNerd]

These are literally "stupid plugins".

Ok, that was a troll... or was it?