Despite the Logic Rant post. For you Logic users.

[Chrisac]

I stopped using Logic two years ago and as luck or bad luck would have it last week I had to get hold of Logic again to rework some old session. A friend of mine was kind enough to loan me his Dual 2ghz G5 and Logic 7 software. I really wasnt looking forward to the session:

Im impressed..........! Particularly with the Apple loops import/export functions. Ive been using another software which uses a rather nasty sounding granular timestretching algorithm and I just cant get over how much better Apple Loops sound. I was having a ball making my own Apple loops and I simplu couldnt hear undesirable audio effects unless I transposed more than 3 semitones or changed Tempo more than 10bpm.

I was also blown away by the huge amount of FX and instrument plugins I could run in the session without the CPU crapping out on me. Undoubtedly Logic is highly optimised software. The latency was V V V Good. I could actually play something with some fee for a changel

It wasnt all plain sailing though. Logic still has a lot of clutter' and audio editing is still a chore as well as arranging a large session. I also experienced missing files with no apparent reason.....another ???%4?? scenario, but overall its been vastly improved since I last used it and if Apple continue improving Logic as they are maybe Logic can get back to its former glory.

Now whether this means I would ever go back to logic ( as Im very unhappy about my current daws lack of features) I dont really know yet. Becoming an Apple disciple and digging deep every six months is my biggest turn off...........we shall see

[grahluk]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

Now whether this means I would ever go back to logic ( as Im very unhappy about my current daws lack of features) I dont really know yet. Becoming an Apple disciple and digging deep every six months is my biggest turn off...........we shall see

It could be worse. If you were in Digidesigns pocket you'd be shelling out every couple years for hardware as well to keep up with the Jones'. I'm a Logic user as well from 2.5. I agree Logic has some nice things about it. I'm uneasy about Apple though. I get the impression those in charge of what happens with Logic haven't been in the trenches for a long time if ever. I feel much of what has been added since their stewardship has been fringe bells and whistles. Enough with the add in FX and instruments and air fresheners. I think it would be a much stronger PRO app if they would refocus a bit on it's core operation and interface. Sequoia/Algorhythmix looks very alluring from my side of the fence these days. I would love for Emapple engineers to spend a couple weeks with that then get back to Logic and see where they could improve things. Oh yea DDP authoring for waveburner and some QC analysis for CDR burning would make it a real mastering tool. One can dream.

[anon]

Originally Posted by AngeloClematide

Yes, it's kind of funny, isn't it, you pay the price of a Ferrari, but it runs no better then any other Toyota...

but sure looks good!

WTF Are you talking about, a nicely tuned Ferrari is a billion miles better than ANY Toyota, What a silly thing to say.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by anon

WTF Are you talking about, a nicely tuned Ferrari is a billion miles better than ANY Toyota, What a silly thing to say.

The point is that a Ferrari is a better vehicle than a Toyota. The statement compares the price of Logic to the price of a Ferrari, then it compares the performance of Logic to the performance of a Toyota.

It's like saying: "When you buy Logic, you pay for the premium performance of a Ferrari, but you get the middle-of-the-road performace of the Toyota.

If the poster said that a Ferrari was not a better vehicle than a Toyota, then the comparison wouldn't make sense.


The above attempt at clarification has nothing to do with my opinion of Ferrari or Toyota motor cars or Logic software.

I've just purchased a copy of SX3, but something's always drawn me towards Logic. It may not be ideal for the way I work, but there's something really appealing about it.

I'd take this Toyota over this Ferrari:

[KimSira]

Originally Posted by grahluk

I feel much of what has been added since their stewardship has been fringe bells and whistles. Enough with the add in FX and instruments and air fresheners. .

That's interesting, I have started to feel the same!
What has really turned me off, is the lack of contact with customers that emapple have due to the non disclosure blurb. I landed a job with a good client and on the second session with them, every time I hit record on the Logic Control, Logic would crash.
Highly embarrased I spent all night (after I sent the client away) trying to pin point the cause. I finally found it and the only reponse I got was that they were aware of the problem. Well great! Thanks for letting the users know?!

Cheers
Kim

[Roger Starr]

Originally Posted by max cooper

The point is that a Ferrari is a better vehicle than a Toyota. The statement compares the price of Logic to the price of a Ferrari, then it compares the performance of Logic to the performance of a Toyota.

It's like saying: "When you buy Logic, you pay for the premium performance of a Ferrari, but you get the middle-of-the-road performace of the Toyota.

If the poster said that a Ferrari was not a better vehicle than a Toyota, then the comparison wouldn't make sense.


The above attempt at clarification has nothing to do with my opinion of Ferrari or Toyota motor cars or Logic software.

I've just purchased a copy of SX3, but something's always drawn me towards Logic. It may not be ideal for the way I work, but there's something really appealing about it.

I'd take this Toyota over this Ferrari:

If you're trying to say that Logic is expensive then this is simply not true! Logic is actually relatively cheap. Cubase f.i. is much more expensive. Oh yeah, you will say, this is not true, BUT with Logic you get a soft sampler and an awesome amount of great plugs. Now, if you get Halion and SX you have already the same price as Logic is and still you don't have half of the plugs LP has. So, in other words, with LP you pay rather the price of a Toyota and get a good Mercedes...

RS

[mersisblue]

or rather

a ferrari that looks like a ferrari

but breaks down like pontiac

[anon]

Originally Posted by max cooper

The point is that a Ferrari is a better vehicle than a Toyota. The statement compares the price of Logic to the price of a Ferrari, then it compares the performance of Logic to the performance of a Toyota.

It's like saying: "When you buy Logic, you pay for the premium performance of a Ferrari, but you get the middle-of-the-road performace of the Toyota.

If the poster said that a Ferrari was not a better vehicle than a Toyota, then the comparison wouldn't make sense.


The above attempt at clarification has nothing to do with my opinion of Ferrari or Toyota motor cars or Logic software.

I've just purchased a copy of SX3, but something's always drawn me towards Logic. It may not be ideal for the way I work, but there's something really appealing about it.

I'd take this Toyota over this Ferrari:

Ah I see, In that case I apologize, I misunderstood the meaning.

[mersisblue]

Originally Posted by AngeloClematide

Ferrari price = Mac
Toyota price = Wintel

Logic is fine / work ever since with / was never a problem / price is good / Cubase is fine too / was never a problem either / Pro Stools work fine too / concern is price of Mac / don't like too much to shovel the money out the macdow / but it's not important at all / will buy new Mac's / Wintel has to go because all my partners work with Mac's / have to be compatible / Logic has to be on same Mac as Pro Stools at mix stage / never drove a Ferrari / was more into things like Stutz Bearcat or Blackhawk as a young man / don't own a car since 20 years no more / all cars ever owned demolished in frontal crashes / was never injured / lucky boy i am / still alive and prosper / yyy doodieee

.

[Sqye]

http://www.digitalmediatraining.com/...ro7/index.html

Check out the Logic training dvd - JP is the man!!!!

[Roger Starr]

Oef, that guy who does the presentation is soo boring! Really, couldn't they get that done better? Not very uplifting...

RS

[jonnyclueless]

I'm glad this thread has come up. Because I am a huge fan of logic and use it extensively for production work. But recently I used it for mixing (using an external mixer). Boy was that the biggest nightmare of my life.

You got your arrange window track name, which corrisponds to an audio object wth a name, and that corrosponds to an actual audio track in that engine. Start moving things around and it gets out of hand. Having to manually change paths one channel at a time (I can change a big group of audio objects all to the same buss/output, but if I want them to be consecutive, I have to do them one at a time). No means of sending LTC. Audio constantly playing out of time (randomly). regions moving by themselves. No way to disable TDM plugins (freeing up DSP) w/o removing them all together. Tracks would come in stero interleved, and I couldn't easily convert them to split and automatically replace the audio regions in the session already. Having to line stero stuff up on odd/even groups of tracks. Had a hard time doing fades on large groups of regions (either had to grup them or do one at a time).

I'm sure there are work arounds and a lot of my problems came from teh TDM side of Logic, but the experience made me never want to touch logic for audio again. Almost as bad as doing MIDI in pro tools.

[Mr Edit]

Again, it has to be said, to a large extent its what you're used to using. I've been with Logic all the way and I'm used to the way it works. I think to get the best out of Logic you HAVE to learn a lot of key commands which takes longer term commitment. But once your up on the shortcuts you can fly through audio editing etc.

Now, stick me on cubase and I fall flat on my arse. Though I'm told by so many people how easy it is to use.

Protools IS still king for audio recording though I will admit that.....

The one thing that really gripes me with logic is the bugs, I'm sure they will have been found at beta testing, so they release it anyway, causing much frustration to those of us who use the software every day, and pay for upgrades everytime.

[7 Hz]

I have used logic on PC for years, always a good app. Now I got to use logic on a mac, and it is NOT a nice experence. It crashes or ****s up BADLY at LEAST once per session, it doesn't sound good either. F**c Mac and f**c Logic, I'm switching ASAP.

[jonnyclueless]

Mr Edit

No doubt. Not being used to a program is usually the biggest factor in problems. But some of the problems I have run into there don't seem to be fixes for. One big issue is not having an auto-save. I know a lot of Logic users don't see a need for this, but man just the ease of mind of having it is worth it alone. With other apps, if there's a crash you know nothing more thana minute is lost. When I crash in logic, the first thought is to how far back I saved. In a perfect world we all hit save every second, but when we get caught up in things it doesn't always happen.

Here's a scenario I ran into the other day, maybe you have some advice. My auto-load has 64 TDM tracks in it. I never even come close to using that many as I don't generally do a ton of audio in it. I get files for some 100 tracks. So I have to manually create 40 some off new objects and assign them voices one at a time. Is ther an easy way to create a large bunch of audio objects with consecutive voices (whatever you want to call them).

Then it comes to assigning the utputs. Now in PT (not implying i,s better, just using an example), I highligh every track (like you can do in logic by rubber banding them), and use modifier keys to set the outputs 1-96 consecutively. In Logic I hd to spend about 30 minutes assinging outputs one by one. And if I changed my mind about the track order...God help me.

It seems the answer gnereally is to have an autoload prepared. But I am not always able to predict and have an autoload for every situation. The outputs aren't always going to be the same, etc.

I'm sure there's gotta be easier ways to do this stuff that I am just not aware of. For now some of the things which take no time for me, end up taking 10 times as long to do. And the crashing.....When it's stable it's great, but when it gets unstable, it can be crash after crash.....

But again, on the production side, I don't think I could be any happier.

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by AngeloClematide

Not necessarily!

i solved that with a autoload template who has 128 tracks,
delete the one you don't need is faster done then creating
new output assingment. Of course with simply pushing delete.
Sometime is just a matter of having reverse ideas. I remember
the first thing i did when Environment came along was to create
a total all included Environment.

Another ways is, to open two songs, and simply drag&drop
form a existing song to a template autoload. This workflow
is also handy, when you later decide to make a score of any
type.

Further, you can drag&drop the whole environment to a another
song, just erase the old one first. That's what i do when a song
is delivered from a third party.

Rearranging tracks can be done very fast, just bring the tracks to
the order you wanna have them, and drag them to the a new
template.

did God help?

.

But that only works if you happen to already have a template that already exists.In my case, because I so rarely use Logic for audio on any large basis, I didn't have such an autoload. For the most part it's uneeded and I would have to delete tracks on every session to get back the DSP. Now that I have got a bigger session I have to go make a pile of audio units. In this case DSP wasn't an issue, I just hadn't had the objects in an autoload. But Is it too much to ask for the ability to create a whole bunch at once? How hard would it be to have a command that made a set number of objects and consecutive voices?

And this is just one of a hundred scenarios. I would have to have a huge arsenal of various autoloads for different situations, and no way of knowing what will be needed in the future. And no autoload is going to cover all audio output arrangments. They still have to be done one at a time.

Sure you can drag objects around, then I run into the problem where I have these different tracks names with different audio object names, assigned to different voices, and it becomes one big confusing mess. I have a hard time telling which voices are being used, and run into certian tracks not playing right, or files not exporting (track to audio) right, etc etc. Some of these features are great for production, comping etc, but when it comes to a mix session they create more of a headache for me than good.

Another one I run into, and maybe you can help with. When I want to drag like 50 audio files/regions from the audio window into teh arrange window. I can only seem to select everything, or one at a time (shift-clicking). How do you rubberband a large number of audio files?

Another issue I have found, it when exporting tracks to audio is that the audio on some tracks willbe in the wrong place. Whil in the original region a part may start at bar 7, in the newly created audio file, it may end up at bar 10. This seems random, and I have to examine track by track which ones are wrong. This can be a PITA when you aren't very familliar with the material.

Here's a minor one. When I want to import audio into a session, it doesn't move the audio into the project audio folder. I seem to have to go into the finder, manuallycopy the audio into my project audio folder, then import. or I can import the audio files where they are, and use copy/convert to copy them into the audio fiels folder, but then I end up with two copies in the audio window. I wish the import window would give the option to copy and/or convert the audio into the audio files folder and into the format of the session.

Sometimes when importing a file, it will throw off the timing of the other audio tracks. I imported a short audio file o its own track, with it's own audio object voice, etc. And my kick and snare audio tracks would start playing out of time. Totally random. Sometimes when starting at the top of the song while locked to LTC, one of the tracks will play 5 bars before it's supposed to, etc.

A big gripe for me is that with TDM, recording in WAV format results in white noise in the audio files. This has been happening since around version 5. That leaves me ith the choice of sd2, which is only mac compatible and corrupts if moved to a non-mac formated drive, or AIF which doesn't support time stamping. Maybe it has been fixed in the last update, but I have been too afraid to try as the results are ear-splitting noise.



I'm not writing this to bash on Logic, but rather to hopefully find work arounds for my newly formed issues.

[Mr Edit]

Jonny,

I totally agree with the things you have highlighted, in particular the creating new tracks thing. Recently I've been importing loads of strips from protools with 96 audio channels. The work around I found was to use one of the template files that comes with L7, but I must admit that it was 3 tracks in before I thought to do this.

As for the autosave, though it may not do it on every computer. Everytime Logic fully crashes on my it creates a backup (crashed) file, so far (touch wood) it has always worked for me. Though I'm getting way less crshes now than I did on L6 on os9.

The auto assign tracks thing, well, you can assign multiple channels at once, as for them increasing numerically, I will look in to that one.

One part of logic worth checking out though, is the start up asssistant. In their you can get Logic to crreate a new autolaod file, based on you specifications, this relates to track count and input assisngment, It woudl be much quicker to do that at the start of a project than do the whole manual create thing.

Just one litttle nugget that I use in logic though is the enviroment. Using that you ca create your own custimised mixer pages that I then assin to screen sets. So for example on a current project I have an audio track mixer, bus mixer, aux mixer, my stems, and master outputs. It makes navagating the audio mixer a whole load quicker.

[bigbaby987]

so does logic angelo, it's pretty simple. there is a create tracks menu in logic and you decide and go from there. if you don't as many as you started, just highlight and hit the backspace key. simple. logic generally starts off with the autoload and then you adjust. but just remember, you can create as many templates as you want. i know that cubase and nuendo, but that's the way we do it in logic.

b

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by Mr Edit

Jonny,

One part of logic worth checking out though, is the start up asssistant. In their you can get Logic to crreate a new autolaod file, based on you specifications, this relates to track count and input assisngment, It woudl be much quicker to do that at the start of a project than do the whole manual create thing.

This was the first thing I tried in the current project.I kind of thought to myself "I'm short about 40-50 tracks in my template, Maybe I can just run the assistant and start a new one". But for some reason, it only covered things ike the monitor configuration, and the keyboard shortcuts, after that the only other option was "finish". Perhaps it only works if there is no auto-load in the templates folder or something? Even if this is that case, I think Apple could easily address some of these problems (maybe technically they aren't problems, but fixes could make things more easily accessable) such as beefing up the setup assistant. They could make it so the assistant opens on top of the session (not closing it) and allow you to add stuff into the existing session. Or they could ease up my fingers by making it so you don't have to hold down the mouse button when selecting outputs/inputs/plugins, etc.

One song at a time I am honing in on speeding things up. Little things like "lock regions to SMPTE" etc are helping speed things up.

Angelo has come up with some great suggestions as well. I have already been starting to use them before his posts, as I figured a lot of them out the hard way (such as not naming track objects and going by the region names, as well as coloring). But great stuff just the same. Apple is known for their usability so I have high hope that a lot of these usability issues will be addressed.

Is there a way to select all tracks and assign them to "no output"? This would make my life a lot easier.

PS - The saving upon crash is kinda 50/50. When there is a crash message it saves, when the app just dissappears, there's none. Also oddly, it seems to crash the most when recording (printing back into Logic).

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by AngeloClematide

Yes, it's kind of funny, isn't it, you pay the price of a Ferrari, but it runs no better then any other Toyota...

but sure looks good!

Actually, Toyotas are a lot more dependable than Ferraris. I've never owned a Ferrari but I've talked to a few owners. It's a labor of love. Ferraris are not about dependable transpo, by any stretch.

Er... not to break the analogy.

Glad to hear things are going better in Logic land, anyhow!

[jonnyclueless]

Someone on another thread pointed out a great feature, which is 'select multiple' in the arrange window. Brings up a dialog and creates as many audio object as you like, and assignes them consecutive voices (ie if you create 40, it will give them voices 1-40). I figured there was something in there I just didn't know about.

[groovuru]

my Logic 7.1.1 is quite happy on Mac G5 D2 GHz OS 10.4.3

[Empire 21 Music]

I'm still on 10.3.9 and Logic 7.0 something - and I get a crash more often than I want - Guess I need to spend the $20 for Logic and the $100 for Tiger...
Other than that - I been with Logic since 3.5 and its been good to me.

[wooster]

I've used Logic 7 since it came out last year
the only time I've ever crashed with Logic 7, was with an earlier driver for Metric Halo 2882. since their driver update last summer, I have not crashed once.

It seems the interface companys have to scramble to keep up with the Apple updates, but when their drivers work it is all peachy king.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Empire 21 Music

I'm still on 10.3.9 and Logic 7.0 something - and I get a crash more often than I want - Guess I need to spend the $20 for Logic and the $100 for Tiger...
Other than that - I been with Logic since 3.5 and its been good to me.

7.0 was the crappiest piece of software on machine ever. (including freeware hacks) 7.1.1 is relatively stable. It does crash, when I put any plugin over a Spacedesigner, and start messing with the controls. It doesn't like that at all. Also look out for offline bounces. CHECK YOUR NEW FILES. they might be square waves. (happens 50% of the time here) Also annoying is that it only looks for impulse responses in its own folder, and refuses to see aliasses. A nice external (over LAN) sample library, together with Kontakt impulses is therefore not really doable. Very nice is the function to stream audio and midi over a LAN. Guess they couldn't leave this out, after Jack came to the Mac.

I do agree with earlier posters, Logic could use some work. Emagic was making big improvements in workflow every update, they should keep the focus on that. Guess it is not easy when it has that many functions. Sculpture is awesome btw.

[Chrisac]

Ha Ha!

Im still using logic for some sessions. Isnt that weird.........

But seriously, its not bad at all. Cubase SX has more clutter than Logic 7 now due to SX not implementing dedicated Virtual Midi/instrument tracks. Sx can do more funky stuff but I have no doubt Logic will catch up by the next major update.

Ive done a few mixes entirely using only Logic instruments and plugins ITB. This is not a critique of Logics audio engine at all which is stellar, but for me anyway mixing using only Logic EQs is more difficult than my usual VST eqs. I couldnt get a decent sound. Thats just logics eq plugins so theres no doubt that If i had the same plugs I use on SX (on a PC) I could get the same results. Still Logics included VIs and plugs is by far the best value for $$ and some of the virtual instruments are highly useable.

[rashadrm@hotmai]

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

I'm glad this thread has come up. Because I am a huge fan of logic and use it extensively for production work. But recently I used it for mixing (using an external mixer). Boy was that the biggest nightmare of my life.

You got your arrange window track name, which corrisponds to an audio object wth a name, and that corrosponds to an actual audio track in that engine. Start moving things around and it gets out of hand. Having to manually change paths one channel at a time (I can change a big group of audio objects all to the same buss/output, but if I want them to be consecutive, I have to do them one at a time). No means of sending LTC. Audio constantly playing out of time (randomly). regions moving by themselves. No way to disable TDM plugins (freeing up DSP) w/o removing them all together. Tracks would come in stero interleved, and I couldn't easily convert them to split and automatically replace the audio regions in the session already. Having to line stero stuff up on odd/even groups of tracks. Had a hard time doing fades on large groups of regions (either had to grup them or do one at a time).

I'm sure there are work arounds and a lot of my problems came from teh TDM side of Logic, but the experience made me never want to touch logic for audio again. Almost as bad as doing MIDI in pro tools.

exactly...... if we could only have protools audio editing, and logics midi functions that would be the undisputed best music software program.....Any software developers out there?......

[MDM]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

Oef, that guy who does the presentation is soo boring! Really, couldn't they get that done better? Not very uplifting...

RS

I fully agree !

and what's up with all the beginners talk about oscilators blah blah boring


As for Logic .. Logic is an awesome application , which, when used in the right way, can give me everything I need from a DAW
Of course, you need to get to know it - you got to use the key-commands .. you got to understand how environments work ..
If you know Logic well, you shouldn't run into any weirdness - unless something is up with your drivers / soundcard .. I dunno .. I always had great results with Logic Pro in combination with both RME HDSP9652 and later Metric Halo modules ... Just with the PowerCore and Logic things can get messy .. For the rest, I really have NO CLUE what everybody is whining about ! -- Been doing so many full-on arrangements and mixes with Logic since Logic 4 ... And it's just getting better !
BTW, I couldn't care less about all the stupid soft-synths that come now with Logic - That's the only waste of money in my opinion ... they sound really bad, I find.
I'd like to add to this heavy statement, that I own real vintage synths as well as many digital synths / fender rhodes etc ...
Yes, the softsynths are what make Logic feel more amateurish , less slutty I would say- for the rest it's way cool ! - They should swap the softsynths for some decent compressor-plugins that'd be good.

[Roger Starr]

Originally Posted by rashadrm@hotmai

exactly...... if we could only have protools audio editing, and logics midi functions that would be the undisputed best music software program.....Any software developers out there?......

Don't wanna stirr to much up, but you have something very, very, very close that in Cubase as well in Nuendo! I don't think SX is clutter by the way. Virtual instruments are done as easily, quick en intuitive using adding midi tracks. Don't see the problem there. Logic tho' has indeed the so complete package of plugs, it is in that sense so much more a true total music production kit, which in that sense Cubase or Nuendo aren't...

Regards,

Roger

[Switchcraft]

damn, I love logic.