Native, no more outboard gear?

[Roger Starr]

Just wondering how many already use only their PC or Mac and plugs to do whole productions without any outboard gear. F.i. only Logic and it's plugs, maybe with some third party stuff, and no outboard modules anymore...?

Is this the end of major sales of synths etc. for the Rolands, Yamaha's etc.?

Regards,

RS

[autodidactic]

I don't think it's the end of the hardware synth. Hardware synth afficionados will always be around the same way there will always be guys who mix OTB with analog gear. The advantages to using hardware synths.... HW synth will always be compatible with your OS, platform independant, doesn't tax your CPU.

My $0.02

[stuartdixon]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

Just wondering how many already use only their PC or Mac and plugs to do whole productions without any outboard gear. F.i. only Logic and it's plugs, maybe with some third party stuff, and no outboard modules anymore...?

Is this the end of major sales of synths etc. for the Rolands, Yamaha's etc.?

Regards,

RS

I feel like this question has come up a lot before...

Plugin synths are great, unless you like to touch knobs (that sounded wrong
even with my Oxygen8 doing the knob controller duty, I still feel more at home turning native hardware knobs. the response just feels better.

I like analouge outboard for bass stuff. Just smells better. Those Korg Legacy plugs sure do sound fantastic, though.

Sampling duties are supposed to be easier ITB, but I just can't seem to find a software sampler that I like (tried Kontact, Halion). Any suggestions anyone for s a soft sampler that will do granular stuff as well?

Stuart Dixon
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[synthdogg]

I think the bigger synth manufacturers have been dealing with slumping sales for years, and for many different reasons, not just soft synths. The compannies that continue to be successful will be the ones that learn to adapt with the changing marketplace, and we've already seen keyboard manufacturers starting to produce soft synths, hardware boxes that integrate more seamlessly with DAW environments, and we've seen them start to buy some of the DAW manufacturers. The hardware synths will always be around (some people actually enjoy sittting around and playing them like INSTRUMENTS believe it or not...), but more competition in the market isn't such a bad thing.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

Just wondering how many already use only their PC or Mac and plugs to do whole productions without any outboard gear. F.i. only Logic and it's plugs, maybe with some third party stuff, and no outboard modules anymore...?
Is this the end of major sales of synths etc. for the Rolands, Yamaha's etc.?
Regards,
RS

Your question has two main parts to it:

Outboard question:
I work mostly ITB doing breakbeat rigtht up until the mixing stage.
It is fine- nut the real punch comes at mixdown- neve console and great outboard gives it the overall timbre I need.

Synth question:
I had been working mostly with softsynths for the last year- recently rediscovered the racks of synths I have.
They are excellent and sound unique.
I think days of JV1080 style productions boxes are gone (although I still like the 1080) but there will always be a market for unique synths.
Softsynths are cool- faves are Albino, ES2, Indigo TDM, Spectrasonnics Trilogy and Stylus RMX.
Allmost all the breaks tracks I am doing have all those VI's in there somewhere.

Logic's Sculpture is excellent also.

JR

[jcschild]

yeah this is kinda like analog vs digital.

at least now we have computers that can actually handle it.
well a computer for sure.

Dual dual core optis!

with Dual Core Intel Xeons on the way even more choices

no comment on present mac dual cores~
wait until they are mactels.

at least you can now work ITB, not to mention orchestrate real time with 2-6 GIga/VSTi boxes to go with it.

Scott
ADK

[Brandino221]

Oneday it just might be all digital. Who knows. If that happens it won't be for a WHILE. The thing is is that you always have to buy buy buy with Digital (updates, computers, converters, plugs and so on). That is what really sucks. I don't see how people can keep spending tons of $$ every few years to keep up. It gets crazy. But that might be the new way to keep the "small guys" out of the market later on.
It crazy to think how back in the day you would buy a bunch of gear and thay not only hold value but they can still work today. Now you buy all this grear and after some years it's trash and old tech.

[Exmun]

I hate to sound too old school, but there is an immediacy and stability to hardware boards that I haven't had with software synths. I use Gigastudio and it's very powerful. I like the fact that all of my samples are right there in the box. I can store litterally Gigabytes of samples.

But there is something creatively satisfying about being able to just push one button and play... no operating system issues, no cpu... just play, tweak and create. I like software for getting particular sounds. The software sound quality (when it's right) is unbeatable. But if I compare one to one... software to hardware with no hybrid setup... Hardware wins.

Like everything on this site... you need both.

[aussie_techie]

Native, no more outboard gear? are you insane?
these will always be outboard gear, you have to get that great sound ITB to start with or you cant work with it pain and simple you cant do away with real instraments. protools has replaced tape, but most high end projects are still done with n*** style pres great dynamics processors and mixed on big SSL desks.
to sythns;
there are so many reasons for hardware, stability, relability, compatability, know what it can and cant do, short loading time, latency, patching buttons, somthing you can touch, ease of use and of course the sound (but then some say soft synths can sound better). anyone playing live needs the reliability of hardware

that said softsynths have there merits aswell, number for most people is price. you should be open to both sides, and use what works for you. softsamples are doing well, but its still sampeling a real instrament, dedicated hardware samplers seems to be diminishing but samples built into sound modules are growing sound modules will never die nor will a real keyboard or grand painos. you wouldnt trade a grand paino for a 2 octave controller, but you might add it to your arsenal to give your self more options.
forget what others thing is the 'best' use whatever you are comfortable with

recently ive been working in logic with all the soft synths, and it can be hard to get the sound you want and you can spend all day trying to pick a sound insted of actually writing something. once i got my real hardware (although it is limited and outdated) i could work again and used hardware sounds for the majority and added the extra flavour with the soft synths.

the market is changing but these is a place for both, use what works for you.

[jcschild]

well heres a question then,

how many of you use UAD/Poco effects rather than the read deal.

how many can afford the real deal.

i know i can do an effect's box for "LIVE" for about $6-8k that replaces $50k-100k
worth of outboard gear. (for LIve does it have to sound as good as the real thing?) and many things are so close now.

on the other hand you dont have to worry if your 1176 is gonna boot!

on the piano side hmm my Bosendorfer sample sounds way better than any piano i could afford to buy. not to mention where the heck would i put it? now if i could just get a better "weighted" feel to my Yamaha.

you have to admit in the last few yrs sampling in the box has come along way.

of course i dont think Ray Charles would want to come to your studio if he had to sit at a midi keyboard either.

Scott
ADK

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by jcschild

of course i dont think Ray Charles would want to come to your studio if he had to sit at a midi keyboard either.

if it sounded good and had decent action (and many kb's these days do) he most certainly would.

Ray would wail on the Scarbee collections.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by jcschild

well heres a question then,

how many of you use UAD/Poco effects rather than the read deal.

how many can afford the real deal.

Scott
ADK

For me the convenience of the plug-in versions of hardware trumps the 5-10% sonics I might gain by going to outboard, assuming the outboard is well maintained and warmed up. This is for individual channel compression EQ, and reverb. Some special FX are just not available in the box (i.e., Eventide). So when I do go OTB, its digital.

Its not that I'm opposed to hardware, I used it for years, but I can recognize that huge progress has been made in the digital realm.

Its just silly to buy $50,000 in hardware boxes these days, unless you enjoy complicating your life.

Trust me. I was that guy with every outboard compressor and EQ. I sold them. All. No regrets. Joy. Music. Freedom. Space.

There are only one or two boxes I miss, and I've found workarounds.

Mixes recall instantly, and sound EXACTLY the same as when I left them. Not "almost the same" because we are using a different patch cable and the console isn't fully warmed up yet, and someone left the LA2A on last night and it overheated, and might need new tubes.

I can pack my entire studio: monitors, computer, A/D, mic pres, mics, cabling etc... into a pair of 24 space shock racks and go anywhere in the world with it.

And record MUSIC. Thats what this is about, the MUSIC.

Not 5% of something only 5% of the world can tell the difference on.

[Reggie Love]

There's a DVD interview with Brian Eno (in this month's SoS if it's okay to mention the various recording Mags on here) in which he talks very fluently about the benefits of DAWs and some of the soft synths he likes... (He's a big fan of Native Instruments FM7 being a DX7 hero). He also makes some very subtle points about how working totally ITB has the potential to limit the types of activity you get involved in and hence the types of sound you produce.

The core of his argument comes down to using your muscle memory and these types of skills less and less reduced the potential for putting together innovative sounds. Interestingly he uses the Kaoss Pad - a DJ tool - as an example of a device that takes about 5 seconds to learn but can introduce human animation to what is going on inside a mostly ITB mixed / soft sound designed recording.

I found his arguments very persuasive and will be trying to introduce even more sounds created using recordings and samples of real world stuff - a path I had been tending to follow more and more anyway.

I know that is a certain amount of the pre-converted preaching the confirmation of his conversion, but having eschewed many of the big studio items, I still find that really good recordings come from recording live things then playing with them. Softs synths are great and I use them alot, particulalry alot of the Native Instruments stable, but I also find myself running around hitting stuff with hammers and dropping things in echoey stairwells just as much to achieve interesting sounds.

My 2p...

[robmix]

I've been down both roads and I'm on the way back to a console, racks of outboard and external synths. I like the premise that cdog is talking about but for me all "soft" just didn't do it. I think it's much greater than a 5% difference. Maybe it's 5% difference on each track which when added up is a much bigger percentage. ITB and outboard each have their strength, they're just tools and each of us needs to find the tools that inspire us to make music. The trend towards ITB in the last few years has produced very little music that compares with the great musical works of the past 5 decades we all aspire to.

[stuartdixon]

Originally Posted by cdog

Some special FX are just not available in the box (i.e., Eventide).

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EVTANTHOLOGY


They ain't cheap, but they sound fantastic

Stuart Dixon
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Version

[Exmun]

Originally Posted by robmix

... I'm on the way back to a console, racks of outboard and external synths. I like the premise that cdog is talking about but for me all "soft" just didn't do it. ..

Same here. Me too. Couldn't have said it any better.

Originally Posted by robmix

The trend towards ITB in the last few years has produced very little music that compares with the great musical works of the past 5 decades we all aspire to.

Preach it! I also wonder whether the fact that people are not creating with other people, whether by writing, recording, mixing, etc, has anything to do with it also. It seems that the whole in-the-box approach is often synonymous to only one person working alone. I think the lack of interaction with others, particularly at the creative stages limits our ability to come up with new mojo... and results in limited gains in the music, if any.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by robmix

The trend towards ITB in the last few years has produced very little music that compares with the great musical works of the past 5 decades we all aspire to.

Originally Posted by Exmun

I also wonder whether the fact that people are not creating with other people, whether by writing, recording, mixing, etc, has anything to do with it also. It seems that the whole in-the-box approach is often synonymous to only one person working alone. I think the lack of interaction with others, particularly at the creative stages limits our ability to come up with new mojo... and results in limited gains in the music, if any.

many of the younger people coming through (many working on their own) dont have the knowledge of the older music that many of us aspire to. subsiquently they dont have the same basis to build from. not saying i have an intimate knowledge of everything in the last 50years but in general i would rather listen to an album from the 60s than what’s on radio these days.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

Just wondering how many already use only their PC or Mac and plugs to do whole productions without any outboard gear. F.i. only Logic and it's plugs, maybe with some third party stuff, and no outboard modules anymore...?

Is this the end of major sales of synths etc. for the Rolands, Yamaha's etc.?

yeah, right.. just like the DX7 killed analog...

why do ppl start these ridiculous threads?

[Reggie Love]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

yeah, right.. just like the DX7 killed analog...

why do ppl start these ridiculous threads?

I don't think anyone is suggesting hardware kit will die totally, there'll always be a need for onstage use as long as OS platforms remain so unstable. However, the hardsynth industry already seems to be becoming more boutique at the pro level. I guess they'll always be prosumer units gathering dust in garage studios though.