27" iMac i7 Quad-Core VS. Mac Pro

[Person99]

It really comes down to what you are going to do with it. Are you mostly an ITB electronic musician or a primarily audio guy recording full drums?

It really comes down to expandability. Bottom line, do you need expandability? You get one firewire bus, depending upon your needs this might not be enough. For instance many like to record to a separate drive.

Do you really need a 2tb hard drive? Do you really need 16 GB? It comes with 4 from Apple (2x2) and two empty slots and it is much cheaper to buy RAM not from Apple

I'm an ITB mostly MIDI/Electronic guy running Logic 9.1 and I love my 27" i7 (or I will in 3 weeks when they come out with the yellow screen fix).

YMMV

[Khaos Phreak]

Originally Posted by Person99

It really comes down to what you are going to do with it. Are you mostly an ITB electronic musician or a primarily audio guy recording full drums?

It really comes down to expandability. Bottom line, do you need expandability? You get one firewire bus, depending upon your needs this might not be enough. For instance many like to record to a separate drive.

Do you really need a 2tb hard drive? Do you really need 16 GB? It comes with 4 from Apple (2x2) and two empty slots and it is much cheaper to buy RAM not from Apple

I'm an ITB mostly MIDI/Electronic guy running Logic 9.1 and I love my 27" i7 (or I will in 3 weeks when they come out with the yellow screen fix).

YMMV

im mostly hip-hop and R&B however im going to be recording rock too anywhere from linkin park to slipknot style's, im going to also be doing video editing in final cut thats why i said 2 tb Harddrive, the 16 gb of ram is because im doing 90% in he box mixing and i saw a few video's where using 8gb the track count in logic couldnt go over 38

i was looking into a symphony system however i heard about the orpheus and ULN-8 and people say they're both better than the ad/da16x's

and both of those are firewire, also i dont plan on using more than 16 tracks ad/da at a time (and only that during drums)


another option i was looking into (and sweetwaters convinces me it is great) is the ensemble with an OCX antelope masterclock and a Liquid 4Pre.

[lukass]

you should save yourself £1500 and build pro audio pc yourself.
but if you wanna mac both machines are top of the range and will do you just fine.

[Khaos Phreak]

Originally Posted by lukass

you should save yourself £1500 and build pro audio pc yourself.
but if you wanna mac both machines are top of the range and will do you just fine.

saving money's why ive worked off pc but i like osx better and i want to use final cut pro to make muzic videos and its only for mac, but thanks for the reply

[Dysanfel]

I just ordered a 27inch iMac with the i7 CPU. For what I do its perfect. The full 16GB of RAM is too expensive for me right now. 16GB is around $800.

[MattiMattMatt]

I've been using a tower for a while and I like it for all the usual reasons, expandability, the PCIe slots, extra hard drives, etc.

At the same, it started to piss me off. My tower pissed me off. I’m not one to get emotional about my equipment, ever, but I started to f*cking hate my Mac f*cking tower. F*CK!

So I up and got an iMac i7.

I have both now, and I’m in the process of migrating my recording to the iMac to see how it goes. I guess I could always go back to a tower if it didn’t work out – not this one but one that had a bit more juice and made a bit less noise.

I haven't really put the iMac through its paces so I can’t really say much about it other than so far, it’s a beautiful beast of a machine.

So first of all, I would have to advise you to get the iMac i7 because recommending other people buy what I buy helps me justify my own purchasing decisions, and by extension validates my existence.

Having validated my existence, it's hard to say.

The iMac is a lot more affordable and clean once you add up all the things you'd have to buy with the Mac Pro. The tower, at least mine, can become a growing mess of crap, and you have to add in all the costs of all the stuff you add to it. Maybe I’m fooling myself that I don’t need all of that, but wouldn’t it be great if I didn’t? With the iMac i7, it seemed worth a try.

However, if you are going to require several hard drives with simultaneous high performance connections, or if you require the flexibility only a tower can provide, or are willing to pay a premium for what may be an incremental advantage, then you might want to get the tower.

Hell, if it turns out my iMac isn't doing it, I'll go back to a tower. But I’m really hoping the iMac works out because it’s such a beautiful beast of a machine.

[BassSaxMan]

What didn't you like about your Mac Pro?

I had an iMac 27" for about a month (actually two because of problems, I had to return it) and eventually I just got disheartened with the whole thing and got a refund.

If your tower pisses you off that badly...that doesn't bode well, what was the problem?

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by BassSaxMan

What didn't you like about your Mac Pro?

I had an iMac 27" for about a month (actually two because of problems, I had to return it) and eventually I just got disheartened with the whole thing and got a refund.

If your tower pisses you off that badly...that doesn't bode well, what was the problem?

Ehh, I think we're experiencing the same thing but with different machines. My Mac Pro crashes a lot and runs hot and loud. And it has some odd quirks. Maybe some of the problems, like not waking up from sleep half the time, can be fixed. But for some reason, this particular computer has always been a handful. To use your word, I'm disheartened.

So for me, the iMac 27" which runs perfectly is a breath of fresh air.

My setup with my Mac Pro was also getting progressively complex, with a lot of cables running all over the place like spaghetti. By comparison, the iMac is simple and neat, so I can purge my studio of a lot of complexity.

If the iMac turns out to be insufficient, I'll bring in a new tower and start from scratch. The next generation Mac Pro will likely be released fairly soon.

[pdiddy boy]

What model Mac Pro did you own because I own a Mac Pro 2.8 - 8 core running logic Pro without a hitch !

[JH4music]

Originally Posted by Khaos Phreak

the 16 gb of ram is because im doing 90% in he box mixing and i saw a few video's where using 8gb the track count in logic couldnt go over 38

Track count has nothing to do with the amount of installed RAM, it's about the speed and/or fragmentation of the disk you are recording to. Getting a faster disk or adding more disks to spread your tracks across is what will increase your track count.

On the imac you only have the FW800 bus to add drives to, unless you are willing to take it apart and replace the optical drive with a second hard drive like I did.

[jonutarr]

I've had my i7 iMac for around a month now, I'm really liking it, no issues with HDD noise or yellow screen colours, the only thing I don't like is 27" mirror like screen, why oh why must we suffer these glass glossy screens, unless you are in PITCH black darkness you will have glare, they make the computer look great except when it's turned on, I could rant all day how much I hate them

.. anyway I got one of these Reduce Glare on MacBook, iMac and Apple Cinema Displays with ClearCal Anti-Glare Film - RadTech Products asap now things are much better

[everythinglouder]

I think the biggest shortcoming with the i7 iMacs (and all other iMacs) is the lack of a SATA connection for additional hard drives.

For recording audio and streaming samples, SATA is really quite superior to FW800. With a Mac Pro you can have up to 4 internal drives on SATA and a ton more via an eSATA connection to external drives, if you get an eSATA PCIe card.

This was probably the biggest improvement I saw when I upgraded from an older iMac to a Mac Pro. I'm really running just about problem-free in Logic as far as my audio recording and samples go.

[Person99]

Originally Posted by everythinglouder

I think the biggest shortcoming with the i7 iMacs (and all other iMacs) is the lack of a SATA connection for additional hard drives.

For recording audio and streaming samples, SATA is really quite superior to FW800. With a Mac Pro you can have up to 4 internal drives on SATA and a ton more via an eSATA connection to external drives, if you get an eSATA PCIe card.

This was probably the biggest improvement I saw when I upgraded from an older iMac to a Mac Pro. I'm really running just about problem-free in Logic as far as my audio recording and samples go.

As mentioned above, the optical swap really does make the iMac viable for 99% of the folks out there. The vast majority don't need more that a couple 2 TB drives. This frees your FW port up for your interface. Simply put your optical drive and external backup drives on USB ports.

Bottom line: Given OP's usage, there is a 98-99% chance an i7 iMac would work for OP especially if willing to do the optical swap. I can get over 40 tracks of software instruments each with a Space Designer insert and not have to freeze any tracks on it! A comparable Mac Pro system with an inferior monitors will cost you $1500 more than the i7. I can think of a bunch of good uses for that $1500.

The screen on this thing is extremely nice looking. I've not even bothered to hook up a second monitor to mine yet because I find the workspace pretty usable (was used to 2 1600x1200 monitors). You have to spend almost as much as an iMac just to get a comparable screen--and I tell you, after working on this screen, the LCDs from Dell, Sony, and the screen makers just look soft and lifeless!

[nyne]

Can u please tell me more about the optical drive swap ? I read about it and want more info--basically the DVD rom can be swapped for another hard drive , right ? Which drives would qualify for this mod ?

Thanks

[ableton]

google it some companies claim to do it. To be honest you would be better off saving up for a Mac Pro. Whatever about the extra power even on the base models...you just cannot beat the expansions options...4 firewire 4 hard drives loads of USB as many PCI slots as you want.

[JH4music]

Originally Posted by nyne

Can u please tell me more about the optical drive swap ? I read about it and want more info--basically the DVD rom can be swapped for another hard drive , right ? Which drives would qualify for this mod ?

Thanks

You need to use a 2.5" SATA drive(Notebook size). You also need a special caddy to put the hard drive in as the SATA optical drives have a different connector. What makes the most sense is a solid state drive, since mechanical drives in the notebook size are never as fast as their 3.5" big brothers. You also need a set of suction cups to pull the glass off. This is not for the faint of heart, but if you're used to working on laptops it's not that much different.

ifixit has a complete teardown tutorial:

iMac Intel 27" Teardown - iFixit

You can also buy the optical to HDD adaptor from them:

12.7 mm SATA Optical Bay SATA Hard Drive Enclosure - iFixit

I put an 80GB intel X-18M SSD in mine, and use it as a boot drive, I use the 1TB drive for audio and storage. The performance increase from the SSD is amazing. My imac boots in 5-10 seconds, and applications and sessions load ridiculously fast.

[jonutarr]

Originally Posted by JH4music

You need to use a 2.5" SATA drive(Notebook size). You also need a special caddy to put the hard drive in as the SATA optical drives have a different connector. What makes the most sense is a solid state drive, since mechanical drives in the notebook size are never as fast as their 3.5" big brothers. You also need a set of suction cups to pull the glass off. This is not for the faint of heart, but if you're used to working on laptops it's not that much different.

ifixit has a complete teardown tutorial:

iMac Intel 27" Teardown - iFixit

You can also buy the optical to HDD adaptor from them:

12.7 mm SATA Optical Bay SATA Hard Drive Enclosure - iFixit

I put an 80GB intel X-18M SSD in mine, and use it as a boot drive, I use the 1TB drive for audio and storage. The performance increase from the SSD is amazing. My imac boots in 5-10 seconds, and applications and sessions load ridiculously fast.

Well that certainly sounds orsm

I will do something like that down the track for my i7 iMac when I start pushing it's limits, It's great the have everything in a tidy iMac package, when mixing ITB I like to have as much ITB as possible

[drBill]

For what it's worth, I've probably had well over 25 macs over the years. I'm a hard core mac lover.

But.....

EVERY SINGLE Imac I've owned has gone south. At least once. Some more often. They are not built for the heavy lifting that a DAW puts them through.

Every tower has been stone solid.

I'd never trust an iMac for DAW type work.

Just my $.02.

[Dysanfel]

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on iMac supposed lack of HD expansions. USB2.0 is 480mbs and is more than fast enough to transfer files too and from an audio drive on the FW800 port.

I am setting my 27inch i7 iMac up with my FW800 500gig drive daisy chained to my FW400 Duet. Then 2 dual USB2.0 SATA enclosures with a total of 3 additional TB of drive space. With the internal drive that is 4.5TB of space.

Can't imagine needing more anytime soon for what I do.

[BassSaxMan]

Originally Posted by Person99

As mentioned above, the optical swap really does make the iMac viable for 99% of the folks out there. The vast majority don't need more that a couple 2 TB drives. This frees your FW port up for your interface. Simply put your optical drive and external backup drives on USB ports.

Bottom line: Given OP's usage, there is a 98-99% chance an i7 iMac would work for OP especially if willing to do the optical swap. I can get over 40 tracks of software instruments each with a Space Designer insert and not have to freeze any tracks on it! A comparable Mac Pro system with an inferior monitors will cost you $1500 more than the i7. I can think of a bunch of good uses for that $1500.

The screen on this thing is extremely nice looking. I've not even bothered to hook up a second monitor to mine yet because I find the workspace pretty usable (was used to 2 1600x1200 monitors). You have to spend almost as much as an iMac just to get a comparable screen--and I tell you, after working on this screen, the LCDs from Dell, Sony, and the screen makers just look soft and lifeless!

You can get the EXACT same panel used in the iMac 27" from Dell. It's called the u2711. It's 1099 at the moment, but it should drop to the 800 range in short order I imagine. Shipping in February.

Remember, it's not an Apple monitor, it's simply an LG panel that others will use. HP will have a model soon as well.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by drBill

For what it's worth, I've probably had well over 25 macs over the years. I'm a hard core mac lover.

But.....

EVERY SINGLE Imac I've owned has gone south. At least once. Some more often. They are not built for the heavy lifting that a DAW puts them through.

Every tower has been stone solid.

I'd never trust an iMac for DAW type work.

Just my $.02.

Have you seen the specs for the new imacs? They are very impressive to say the least. Compare the cost to a mac pro and it's a no brainer imo. As far as expansion goes - what's wrong with recording to the internal drive? Also, more and more plugins are going native - eliminating the need for external cards.

[everythinglouder]

Originally Posted by roderick

Have you seen the specs for the new imacs? They are very impressive to say the least. Compare the cost to a mac pro and it's a no brainer imo. As far as expansion goes - what's wrong with recording to the internal drive? Also, more and more plugins are going native - eliminating the need for external cards.

I don't think drBill is arguing whether or not the specs are impressive. He's saying that all of his iMacs have physically failed. And I think he means they went south in a way that computers are not supposed to.

I was working on a 24-inch iMac for a while, and I agree with drBill. It turned into a piece of shit.

The way they're built, with poor ventilation and VERY hot working parts, they simply don't last long if you push them in ways that a DAW user would.

My 24-inch iMac lasted a little over a year. It was hardly acceptable for what was supposed to be a relatively high-performance machine. After a year it started having overheating problems and would, when even a tad bit hot (even during the winter), respond as though it was an 866 MHz G3.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by roderick

Have you seen the specs for the new imacs? They are very impressive to say the least. Compare the cost to a mac pro and it's a no brainer imo. As far as expansion goes - what's wrong with recording to the internal drive? Also, more and more plugins are going native - eliminating the need for external cards.

I'm sure the specs are great. All I'm saying is that they are not built up to the rigors of what a busy DAW will throw at it. If you're surfing the web an hour a day, emailing, and doing the occasional recording, it will be fine. For awhile. Then it will die. Like they all do.

Until Apple figures out iMac's and why they all seem do go south with easy use after a couple of years, I'll stick with the towers. More $$? Certainly. And worth it if you make your living on music like I do. thumbsup

[drBill]

Originally Posted by everythinglouder

I don't think drBill is arguing whether or not the specs are impressive. He's saying that all of his iMacs have physically failed. And I think he means they went south in a way that computers are not supposed to.

I was working on a 24-inch iMac for a while, and I agree with drBill. It turned into a piece of shit.

The way they're built, with poor ventilation and VERY hot working parts, they simply don't last long if you push them in ways that a DAW user would.

My 24-inch iMac lasted a little over a year. It was hardly acceptable for what was supposed to be a relatively high-performance machine. After a year it started having overheating problems and would, when even a tad bit hot (even during the winter), respond as though it was an 866 MHz G3.

Yup. That's exactly what I was talking about.

[valis]

My 2006 iMac's "vertical lines" problem didn't fully 'set-in' until I passed the 1-year Applecare mark. Silly me, no local Apple store and I believed the "Apple will soon have a driver fix" I was told to delay me (until my Applecare expired.) Really I didn't want to wait the turnaround time to ship it back, but after watching all the imac/macbook pro issues over the last few years I'll not make that mistake again. Of course there was an out-of-coverage offer later but

So the 'additional' info that I'm providing here (aside from my own iMac anecdote) is that you should become close buds with your local Apple store, or if you don't hae one make sure you've more than 1 machine to work on. And 3-years of Applecare is recommended even for (unfortunately) Mac Pro's and certainly for iMac & laptops.

[nyne]

Woah, are iMac's not reliable machines ?
What about MacBook Pro's ?

My G5's video card died after 5 years, the rest of the machine is fine. I want to upgrade but have been in confusion hell!! Was looking at the iMac closely or a Macbook Pro.

What do u recommend for atleast 5-6 yrs ?
Thanks

[roderick]

Originally Posted by everythinglouder

I don't think drBill is arguing whether or not the specs are impressive. He's saying that all of his iMacs have physically failed. And I think he means they went south in a way that computers are not supposed to.

I was working on a 24-inch iMac for a while, and I agree with drBill. It turned into a piece of shit.

The way they're built, with poor ventilation and VERY hot working parts, they simply don't last long if you push them in ways that a DAW user would.

My 24-inch iMac lasted a little over a year. It was hardly acceptable for what was supposed to be a relatively high-performance machine. After a year it started having overheating problems and would, when even a tad bit hot (even during the winter), respond as though it was an 866 MHz G3.

Well, I got Apple Care and i'm pretty sure the newer machines are better built.

[ableton]

Originally Posted by nyne

Woah, are iMac's not reliable machines ?
What about MacBook Pro's ?

My G5's video card died after 5 years, the rest of the machine is fine. I want to upgrade but have been in confusion hell!! Was looking at the iMac closely or a Macbook Pro.

What do u recommend for atleast 5-6 yrs ?
Thanks

If you asking what is the best machine for the job, then it is a Mac Pro by miles. After that its up to you.

What compromises are you willing to make, you know you will have less power, relative inferior build quality, lack of expandability and arguably less durability for heavy studio using the Imac. Do you absolutely need the portability of a MBP?

And of course what you can afford!!

BTW in my opinion the Imacs and MBP's are great machines...but for studio I find the MPB annoying. After you have an external screen hooked up, external keyboard and mouse, the midi keyboard, the Virus Ti, the interface, the external hard drive etc things get very cluttered. You can forget about trying to daisy chain off the single Firewire slot too.

[valis]

Well on the flipside, my Mac Pro has worked flawlessly. Since I went 2.66ghz in 2008 I don't even have heat related issues like some of the 3.2's did at first. I don't do enough to push it to its limits even still, though I could use more per-core horsepower now.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to get a Macbook Pro, and my G4 Powerbook has been out of commission for a while. I should have just bought in 2008, the 2009 models are less compelling and now that nehelem is available across the board elsewhere I'm really wondering when Apple will get something out past Core2 (and guessing there must be cooling issues or they're sorting out something in the OS/drivers/grand central etc.)

I do think the iMac is a fine machine for general use, but I'm chiming in with others here to say skipping the 3 year Applecare is a bad idea if you're going to put it to heavy use. Already, aside from the cracked 27" iMac screen issue there also seems to be an issue with the backlight filter becoming misaligned and affecting your perceived colors (referred to as the 'yellow screen' problem or similar.) I'll be honest also, if there was eSata & an expresscard interface I would seriously consider the 27" iMac myself. Perhaps usb3 will mitigate that issue somwhat (and SSD's becoming more mainstream in terms of cost/volume) in the next few years.

As a cost effective Mac it's certainly a great machine. And I know there are people who still use G5's, G4's and early Pentium 4's to put out tunes that are played around the world (and Atari's etc)...