Moving from Pro Tools LE to Logic 9 or Cubase 5.

[NWSooner]

Hi all. I'm currently running Pro Tools 8 LE with an 003 on a PC which is also my primary home computer. I'm planning to get a dedicated DAW computer which is going to be one of the new Mac Pros as soon as Apple announces upgrades to the current line. I'm also going to switch DAWs, interfaces and control surfaces at this time. I've ordered a book on Cubase 5 and one on Logic 9 for starters and I also wanted to get some feedback here.

I write primarily electronic music (lots of MIDI) and work with a hybrid ITB/OTB setup. (A bunch of hardware synths, some hardware effects and filters, electric guitar/bass, vocals are all OTB, lots of plugin instruments, EQ, dynamics, and effects ITB.) I'm moving away from Pro Tools 8 LE primarily because I want ADC, I want better MIDI support, I want support for more than 18 inputs, and I want to be able to use any hardware interface (specifically a MH ULN-8 with all 16 I/Os).

Current System:
Windows PC
Digidesign 003 (via Firewire)
Steinberg MR816 CSX (into 003 via ADAT)
Pro Tools 8 LE

Proposed System:
Mac Pro
Metric Halo ULN-8 (via Firewire)
Steinberg MR816 CSX (via Firewire)
Euphonix MC Control + MC Mix
Logic 9 or Cubase 5

What are the pros and cons of the various DAWs for my purposes and which one would you choose if you were me? I don't have any experience with either Cubase or Logic so I'd be learning either one from scratch. I don't particularly care how steep the learning curve is; more what the workflow is like once you know the software well. (My personal favorite software was Studio Vision long ago.)


Cubase 5

• Supposed to have great MIDI support.
• The audio editing is supposed to be good (better than Logic).
• I'm not enamored with the look of the interface from the screenshots and videos I've seen. Not sure about the workflow, but the UI itself seems cluttered/busy and bright.
• No 64-bit for the Mac yet I believe?
• Some people say that Cubase's Mac compatibility/support isn't very good compared to Windows. Is that still true with version 5?
• Doesn't support AU. I would have to check all my plugins to see which ones wouldn't be usable with Cubase. I know that my McDSP plugins should be available in AU soon for Logic but VST support is still a good ways off.
• Integrates nicely with the MR816.
• Is the Euphonix MC Control/Mix integration in Cubase as good as the Logic integration?

Logic 9

• Supposed to have great MIDI support.
• I've read that the audio editing is not that great; certainly not compared to Pro Tools, and I've read that Cubase's audio editing is better too.
• The interface seems clean and unobtrusive. Don't know about the workflow.
• 64-bit is here with 9.1 which is great; I'd prefer to run the 64-bit version of whichever DAW I choose as soon as possible.
• I'm pretty sure that all of my current plugins support both RTAS and AU (or in the case of McDSP they will soon) so I don't think I'll lose any plugins (other than the Digi ones) by moving to Logic.
• Doesn't have any special integration with the MR816.
• The Euphonix integration is supposed to be good.

What else should I consider when choosing between the two programs? How is Logic for audio editing? That seems to be a major complaint on the boards here, and I do plenty of that. (Vocals, guitars, etc.)

Thanks!

[Phaidon]

Seeing that you're PC based and own the MR816, it makes more sense
for you to go with Cubase 5.
I know the GUI,like you stated, is kinda busy(and tasteless if u ask me)
but I guess you'll get used to it after a while.
You can't go wrong with either daw but personally I think C5 is a bit of a better program,and since you mentioned that you do a lot of edits in audio,
C5 is much better for the task.


Cheers

Phaidon

[EddieTheRed]

I use Cubase 5 / Logic 9 / PT 7.4 . . .

I'm primarily a Cubase user, but I find the Audio Editing in Logic 9 to be much more PT-ish and much more powerful than Cubase.

The elastic audio thing in Cubase is absolutely ****ing useless . . .

Nowadays, I track and edit in Logic Pro 9 on a Mac and mix in Cubase 5 on a PC.

It works.

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by EddieTheRed

Nowadays, I track and edit in Logic Pro 9 on a Mac and mix in Cubase 5 on a PC.

It works.

Why that? why not stay in Logic for the mix as well?

[greggybud]

You said "lots of plug-in instruments" which makes me wonder why you chose a Mac over a PC.

If you are wanting to work with most Native Instruments, Arturia, and have an awareness of the huge amount of plugs via places like KVR...at the least I would explore what is available on the PC side that is not on the Mac side.

Yes, NI does Mac as well as Steinberg, but keep in mind the number of PC users that use NI and Steinberg vs Mac. Both companies started out on the PC end. In the past I have used tools from MOTU but easily realized that PC was an afterthought for them. I'm told overall both NI and Steinberg work better now with Macs, but it's something to consider.

Personally, for music composition and production, there are dozens of tools only available for PC that I could not live without. Even programs such as Wavelab for mastering.

Regarding editing, Cubase used to be horrible and for years has been playing catch-up. If you are serious about editing I would choose a dedicated editor such as Wavelab instead of going the all-in-one-box route. There is a reason mastering engineers such as Brian Gardner use Wavelab. It contains tools such as Smart Bypass that are not found in any other application that I know of.

So I guess I'm saying make sure you will be content with the route you take.

[EddieTheRed]

Originally Posted by Phaidon

Why that? why not stay in Logic for the mix as well?

It's partly because, for no rational reason, mixing in Logic drives me absolutely insane. I know, I know . . . It's just the little things . . . the metering, the faders . . . the way every parameter snaps to one of 128 steps so if you try and pull all the faders down your balance changes a little . . . I know it's irrational, and weird, but I've honestly got no problem moving between DAW's for different parts of the process. It kinda helps me to approach things from a different perspective, too . . . If I'm in Cubase I have my mixing hat on . . .

I quite literally couldn't mix the way I do without Nebula, and it's a much smoother experience on PC. I use loads of PC-only plugins too, including some amazing free stuff from Antress and Bootsy.

I use a c.2GHz MacBook Pro and an i7 PC. I'm running in 64 bit with 8GB of RAM and and jBridge, so the PC KILLS the mac.

And yes, with maximum buffers I still max out the i7 on every single mix

FWIW, I master on PC in Studio One. I'm slave to no DAW!

[DrSax]

Cubase 5 and your 816 wiould be perfect for what you're describing

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by EddieTheRed

I use loads of PC-only plugins too,

[EddieTheRed]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

What?

I don't get it

[NWSooner]

Originally Posted by greggybud

You said "lots of plug-in instruments" which makes me wonder why you chose a Mac over a PC.

If you are wanting to work with most Native Instruments, Arturia, and have an awareness of the huge amount of plugs via places like KVR...at the least I would explore what is available on the PC side that is not on the Mac side.

Yes, NI does Mac as well as Steinberg, but keep in mind the number of PC users that use NI and Steinberg vs Mac. Both companies started out on the PC end. In the past I have used tools from MOTU but easily realized that PC was an afterthought for them. I'm told overall both NI and Steinberg work better now with Macs, but it's something to consider.

Personally, for music composition and production, there are dozens of tools only available for PC that I could not live without. Even programs such as Wavelab for mastering.

As far as I know I'm not using any plugins that aren't available on both platforms, so I don't see the platform as a real issue for me plugin-wise unless some of them are known to have issues on the Mac. (Currently using NI Komplete 6, Fxpansion BFD 2/Guru/SynthSquad, Korg Analog/Digital Legacy, Arturia V-Collection, SSD 3, NI Maschine, Way Out Ware TimewARP 2600, Spectrasonics Trilian, FabFilter Total Bundle, Pro Audio DSM, Waves SSL 4000 Native and Vocal Rider, Rob Papen RG, and the Celemony Melodyne Editor.)

Anyway, I don't really want to get into a PC vs Mac thing. I have a PC (and I'm quite happy with it as my primary computer), but I want a Metric Halo ULN-8 so I'm going Mac for my DAW machine.

Originally Posted by greggybud

Regarding editing, Cubase used to be horrible and for years has been playing catch-up. If you are serious about editing I would choose a dedicated editor such as Wavelab instead of going the all-in-one-box route. There is a reason mastering engineers such as Brian Gardner use Wavelab. It contains tools such as Smart Bypass that are not found in any other application that I know of.

Whether or not I end up using an external editor for some things I want to do most of my audio editing (crossfading between takes, etc.) in my DAW. I'm happy with the editing in Pro Tools, it's those other issues (mentioned in my original post) that have convinced me to move away from it.

What are the issues that people see with audio editing in Cubase or in Logic? I don't really care if the workflow is different from Pro Tools, just how effective you can be when you really know the program.

Thanks!

[mfd232]

I am using an 8 core Mac Pro to run PT LE complete to record/mix, as well as Logic 9, and Nuendo 4. I use Wavelab6 to master. I run Wavelab on a workaround on the Mac Pro.

I think a studio, at least a commercial studio, needs to have multiple tools for different projects. Nuendo is my favorite, followed by Logic, then PT 8 LE complete.
Cubase/Nuendo is an excellent choice for mixing IMO.

I also have he MC MIX, and MC Control. They work great with logic, but they work extremely well with any application that your Mac is running. You can control iTunes(!?) if you want to. With cubase/nuendo you just have to be willing to take some time saving a config that will help you with YOUR workflow.

Cubase vs. PT LE has a couple obvious advantages- Unlimited track count (with modern CPUs) and thousands of plugins to choose from. I tend to use the UAD plugins on 80% of my mixes, with Nuendo I just have a few really cool plugins that won't run in PT.

Curious what upgrade to Macs you are looking for? USB 3, solid state drives, DDR 4

[NWSooner]

Originally Posted by mfd232

Curious what upgrade to Macs you are looking for? USB 3, solid state drives, DDR 4

Oh, I'm not waiting for anything specific with the new Mac Pros, just that the current ones are almost certainly about to be refreshed by Apple given their previous timelines.

For example:

Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy Your Mac, iPod or iPhone

[NWSooner]

Originally Posted by mfd232

Nuendo is my favorite, followed by Logic, then PT 8 LE complete.

What puts Nuendo/Cubase ahead of Logic for you?

Originally Posted by mfd232

I also have he MC MIX, and MC Control. They work great with logic, but they work extremely well with any application that your Mac is running. You can control iTunes(!?) if you want to. With cubase/nuendo you just have to be willing to take some time saving a config that will help you with YOUR workflow.

That's good to know. Sounds like integration with the Euphonix stuff isn't really a differentiator between Logic and Cubase. Is it just as easy to control plugins and such within the DAWs via the Euphonix controllers?

[bollibompa]

Originally Posted by EddieTheRed

It's partly because, for no rational reason, mixing in Logic drives me absolutely insane. I know, I know . . . It's just the little things . . . the metering, the faders . . . the way every parameter snaps to one of 128 steps so if you try and pull all the faders down your balance changes a little . . . I know it's irrational, and weird, but I've honestly got no problem moving between DAW's for different parts of the process. It kinda helps me to approach things from a different perspective, too . . . If I'm in Cubase I have my mixing hat on . . .

I quite literally couldn't mix the way I do without Nebula, and it's a much smoother experience on PC. I use loads of PC-only plugins too, including some amazing free stuff from Antress and Bootsy.

I use a c.2GHz MacBook Pro and an i7 PC. I'm running in 64 bit with 8GB of RAM and and jBridge, so the PC KILLS the mac.

And yes, with maximum buffers I still max out the i7 on every single mix

FWIW, I master on PC in Studio One. I'm slave to no DAW!

I am planning to build a new PC with i7 and windows 7 64-bit. Is your i7 stable and is is possible for you to tell me your configuration, mobo, CPU etc? I am using Cubase 5.
Thanks
/B

[LQM]

I agree that Logic's Flex audio is better than Cubase's timestretching (but this is a new feature and I expect Steinberg to improve their audio warping in the next release). Logic has improved it's audio editing since v8, but they still include Soundtrack Pro in there too which is a good audio editor in it's own right. Cubase is fine for audio editing, and the new Variaudio feature is killer.

I use both and love both of them, but if I had to pick one system it would be Cubase on PC and Logic on Mac. Logic just integrates so well with Mac. Cubase 5 actually performs well on a Mac (some earlier versions less so) though. I've always liked Cubase's workflow and GUI better than Logic's even though Logic has improved in that area. Just a personal choice.

I like the choice of in line editing, or floating window editing (Cubase provides these options). Granted, I've been a Cubase user since the Atari ST, but Logic was a mindscrew until recently, some people say Apple have dumbed it down for Logic 8 and 9, well I appreciate it, because using Logic Audio Platinum 5.5 on PC was a mindf*ck.

Both companies could use some improvement on the customer service and support front mind.

[Multi-Monitors]

I use logic 8 with a macbook pro...macs rule, get one..you won't be sorry...also I use an apogee ensemble interface which is integrated in with logic pro...and the apogee converters are sweet!

[florent]

I have Logic 9 ,cubase 5 ,PT le 8(mbox 2 pro) all running on mac ,with apogee symphony,I ordered PC i7 ,so my plan is to run logic on mac ,cubase on PC.so I have best of everything(and no wars btw.platforms and programs)

[Rokus666]

I do a lot of concert recording, medium sized bands, pop vocalists, midi sequencing, TV jingles, post productions, Electronic music, mixing records with plugins, Playing different instruments in multi-microphone setup,etc.
I am versatile musician and I find Cubase the most intuitive even though I've learned to deal with it's bugs and glitches. It does the job completely! Even on an old G5... It doesn't perform as I expect it to, but I still prefer it over logic. Although logic is the most efficient software on the mac, it totally *****ng stupid and illogical that it's such a shame for company like apple to have shitty workflow like that one. By now, audio editing in logic should be like using freaking iPhone...Easy and it "does itself" intelligently and "LOGIC-ALLY"
For real, if you are a computer geek and gear and software update freak lover, Logic is the route to go. You will also need a pair of glasses for it seriously.
For me is Cubase and it always will be. If Steinberg goes out of business on mac, I have no other alternative but to find another route. And it's definitely going to be non Logic9 route.

[paynebabes]

Originally Posted by mfd232

Curious what upgrade to Macs you are looking for? USB 3, solid state drives, DDR 4

Going to be waiting a very long time for DDR4.. Unless intel miraculously includes a DDR4 memory controller onto a new batch of i7's. DDR4 wont be out for a couple years. USB 3 has been available on DS7's for a while now for PC users.

Originally Posted by EddieTheRed

And yes, with maximum buffers I still max out the i7 on every single mix

Thats what overclocking is for

[davey boy]

I personally think you just have to get stuff and try it out for yourself. Isn't there a demo for Cubase 5? I started in Digital Performer (which is great btw) and made Logic my main DAW last year. i also have PT LE. Once you actually learn Logic it's great. You can't beat all it's components in terms of value. Even if you end up getting Cubase too I think that for electronic music (which isn't my main thing), Logic totally excels at. The way you can just make arrangements very quickly, loop regions, quantize regions (non destructively) seems perfect for that genre. Work flow wise, I'm now faster at using Logic then I am at DP, and, I've used DP for 14 years. The only thing I really miss, that I use all the time in DP, is the melodyne like pitch correction ability which cubase has. Happy hunting.

[NWSooner]

After reading a book about Logic 9 and a book about Cubase 5 I've decided on Logic. Thanks everybody!

[everythinglouder]

Originally Posted by NWSooner

After reading a book about Logic 9 and a book about Cubase 5 I've decided on Logic. Thanks everybody!

Now THAT's the way to choose your DAW.

[Radiogal]

From what I´ve heard /read in different forums.
Logic /PT on Mac
ProTools runs better on MAC
Cubase runs better on PC

[Lifted]

Originally Posted by NWSooner

Hi all. I'm currently running Pro Tools 8 LE with an 003 on a PC which is also my primary home computer. I'm planning to get a dedicated DAW computer which is going to be one of the new Mac Pros as soon as Apple announces upgrades to the current line. I'm also going to switch DAWs, interfaces and control surfaces at this time. I've ordered a book on Cubase 5 and one on Logic 9 for starters and I also wanted to get some feedback here.

I write primarily electronic music (lots of MIDI) and work with a hybrid ITB/OTB setup. (A bunch of hardware synths, some hardware effects and filters, electric guitar/bass, vocals are all OTB, lots of plugin instruments, EQ, dynamics, and effects ITB.) I'm moving away from Pro Tools 8 LE primarily because I want ADC, I want better MIDI support, I want support for more than 18 inputs, and I want to be able to use any hardware interface (specifically a MH ULN-8 with all 16 I/Os).

Current System:
Windows PC
Digidesign 003 (via Firewire)
Steinberg MR816 CSX (into 003 via ADAT)
Pro Tools 8 LE

Proposed System:
Mac Pro
Metric Halo ULN-8 (via Firewire)
Steinberg MR816 CSX (via Firewire)
Euphonix MC Control + MC Mix
Logic 9 or Cubase 5

What are the pros and cons of the various DAWs for my purposes and which one would you choose if you were me? I don't have any experience with either Cubase or Logic so I'd be learning either one from scratch. I don't particularly care how steep the learning curve is; more what the workflow is like once you know the software well. (My personal favorite software was Studio Vision long ago.)


Cubase 5

• Supposed to have great MIDI support.
• The audio editing is supposed to be good (better than Logic).
• I'm not enamored with the look of the interface from the screenshots and videos I've seen. Not sure about the workflow, but the UI itself seems cluttered/busy and bright.
• No 64-bit for the Mac yet I believe?
• Some people say that Cubase's Mac compatibility/support isn't very good compared to Windows. Is that still true with version 5?
• Doesn't support AU. I would have to check all my plugins to see which ones wouldn't be usable with Cubase. I know that my McDSP plugins should be available in AU soon for Logic but VST support is still a good ways off.
• Integrates nicely with the MR816.
• Is the Euphonix MC Control/Mix integration in Cubase as good as the Logic integration?

Logic 9

• Supposed to have great MIDI support.
• I've read that the audio editing is not that great; certainly not compared to Pro Tools, and I've read that Cubase's audio editing is better too.
• The interface seems clean and unobtrusive. Don't know about the workflow.
• 64-bit is here with 9.1 which is great; I'd prefer to run the 64-bit version of whichever DAW I choose as soon as possible.
• I'm pretty sure that all of my current plugins support both RTAS and AU (or in the case of McDSP they will soon) so I don't think I'll lose any plugins (other than the Digi ones) by moving to Logic.
• Doesn't have any special integration with the MR816.
• The Euphonix integration is supposed to be good.

What else should I consider when choosing between the two programs? How is Logic for audio editing? That seems to be a major complaint on the boards here, and I do plenty of that. (Vocals, guitars, etc.)

Thanks!

If you doing MIDI, Logic is your friend. I'm using Logic 8 Pro and love it.

Cubase is nice as well, but more for editing the audio. Logic's niche is MIDI, Cubase's niche is Recording/Editting imo

[markham]

Sounds like the OP has made his decision, but regardless, I'll chime in.
I'm a very happy Logic user who switched over from Pro Tools several years ago. I've also done a bit of work in Cubase at a good friend's studio, but I don't own it.

I do mostly rock and folk music, with the occasional electronica or classical or jazz project. Logic has been great on every one of those styles for me. The MIDI support is fantastic, the implementation of software instruments is great, and the various MIDI editors are really good. Those are the things everyone tends to say. But I also want to say that the audio editing is really, really good, which is probably more important for me. Spending most of my time in a rock or folk vein has worked great in Logic. The audio editing is all I need it to be. The only audio editing feature I like better in Cubase is the "volume handle" on each individual audio region, which makes it easy to do a quick volume change. The Logic handling of a feature like this is simple, too, but it's just a two step process (double click on the audio region, which automatically brings up the waveform or sample editor, then change the volume from a menu there) instead of a one-step process. But that's really it, and I rarely need to do something like that, anyway. The audio editing is great for me in Logic.

It'll take you a little while to make the transition from Pro Tools to either Logic or Cubase anyway, and since you're going with a Mac, I really do believe that Logic is the way to go. The other apps in the bundle are great, too. Soundtrack Pro is really nice, as is WaveBurner. I don't use Mainstage personally, but I have friends who do, and they love it, as well. When it comes to GUI layout and overall design, there is a certain amount of individual taste that comes into play. While I respect Cubase/Nuendo from an application standpoint, the GUI on it makes me feel crazy. The symbols, the colors, the way the buttons are grouped together, etc. It always just feels very busy to me, and distracting. I like Logic's clean interface. It "gets out of the way" for me very well. But again, there is a certain amount of personal preference in those kinds of things.

Regardless of all that, Logic Studio really is a great package, man, and I think you'll be happy once you get your workflow down with it.

Cheers, and best of luck.

[Jay M]

It looks like you will have over $15,000 invested in this system, why not just buy both? Most busy composers I talk to are proficient on, and own all the DAWs so they can easily work with whoever they need to.

I'm also curious about the Metric Halo box? It seems very expensive, and it's not even multi-platform. Since a Mac Pro can run Windows, I would want a multi-platform audio I/O such as RME.

Considering that your know Windows, you may want to keep that as an option in case you want to run some windows only software like Vegas, Wavelab or Sonor.

~Jay

[markham]

As an owner of both of the cheaper boxes from Metric Halo, I would say that Metric Halo alone would be enough reason for me to go Mac.

Just my opinion, of course. thumbsup