orchestra piece

[jrubbernek]

Hi, I am thinking about making a score, just for fun. but i don't know anything about an orchestra piece/band, when I say that I mean like, how many instruments are there in an orchestra piece/band, what does each instrument do, what is the tuning of each string on the instrument. Like I've seen a live show(only on TV), and i see a bunch of violin players(I also been told that there are also viola players which I don't have a clue what the difference is but for now I'll call them all violin players cuz they all look the same), and i wonder do they all do? I mean do they all do the same thing? out of all the instruments, o they all play at the same time? or are there moments in a piece where one guy is not doing anything? say if there is a part in a song where there is a chord, or interval, that consists of 3 notes, but the third note doesn't come until...say the 2nd bar...does this happen in a score?

I try to analize a score, and try to pick up these things, but my ear can't grasp it, cuz the overtones on the violins and everything are so rich that i can't tell exactly how many notes are being played...

I'm sure there are plenty music score composers on gearslutz that can give me info on this...I don't have any cool softwares yet, I am just working on the sounds that I have in logic pro.

thanks...

hope you guys can tutor me...

[Larry Mal]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

Hi, I am thinking about making a score, just for fun. but i don't know anything about an orchestra piece/band, when I say that I mean like, how many instruments are there in an orchestra piece/band, what does each instrument do, what is the tuning of each string on the instrument. Like I've seen a live show(only on TV), and i see a bunch of violin players(I also been told that there are also viola players which I don't have a clue what the difference is but for now I'll call them all violin players cuz they all look the same), and i wonder do they all do? I mean do they all do the same thing? out of all the instruments, o they all play at the same time? or are there moments in a piece where one guy is not doing anything? say if there is a part in a song where there is a chord, or interval, that consists of 3 notes, but the third note doesn't come until...say the 2nd bar...does this happen in a score?

I try to analize a score, and try to pick up these things, but my ear can't grasp it, cuz the overtones on the violins and everything are so rich that i can't tell exactly how many notes are being played...

I'm sure there are plenty music score composers on gearslutz that can give me info on this...I don't have any cool softwares yet, I am just working on the sounds that I have in logic pro.

thanks...

hope you guys can tutor me...

Groovy. I'm gonna try and jump in here and help you, because it's a good thing that you're doing for yourself. But first, I have to know, do you read music? Can you play an instrument? Can you play an instrument that isn't guitar, which won't lend itself to scoring easily?

The fact that you don't know the difference between a viola and a violin tells me that you're going to benefit from some musical training. Sorry, buddy, but what you're asking to do is pretty deep and somewhat involved- if everyone could do it, they probably would.

1) If you don't know any music theory then learn some. It isn't hard. It does take time. But without it, you're just going to beat yourself up and not accomplish shit. Find a musician, who gives lessons, and pay that person to teach you music theory. I paid a guitar teacher to not teach me guitar but to drill me in theory. But don't stop there. Get books, and read those books. Without it, it's possible to do a score, I guess, but pretty hard, and you'll need some help. If you want to do music then learn music. Beatmaking and guitar playing only cut it so far. Learn music, brother. It's the same as being able to speak English but not read it. Possible, but not the same, and ultimately more trouble.

2) If you do know some, or just want to jump in and see what you can do, this is a good book:

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Arranging and Orchestration [With CD] by Michael Miller (Paperback): booksamillion.com

3) A lot of it has to do with voices. Let's take a string quartet: 2 violins, a viola, and a cello, is common. Well, two of those are the high voices, one the mid voice, and one the bass. If you learn music, then you can imagine yourself singing one of those and two of your friends singing the other three. Well, you can do some of that in your head now. With training, you can do a lot of it.

The same is sort of true with guitars, think of a bass guitar (bass) and an electric guitar (I'm going to call it mid-range, believe it or not). Voices within the same instrument family. This is true with most instruments, they are parts of families. In other words, once you know how voices work together, and I sang in some choirs to help me with this, then you have greater insight into music in general. In short, any kind of learning you can find will benefit you in what you want to do.

I'm really going to need you to tell me where you are musically and then maybe I can help you better. For now I'll answer your questions:

A) "I mean do they all do the same thing?" Sometimes, sure, but basically not. Again, voices. When writing a score, you'll imagine what is the lead voice? What are the other melodies? What is keeping the beat? Are they playing parts of a chord individually? In an orchestra, many of the instruments are capable of doing any of those roles, and do. This is also true with other music- reggae, for instance, often plays melodies on the bass guitar and the guitar plays percussive/chordal things.

But sure, sometimes, they all do the same things as well. It can be powerful for a bit.

B) "or are there moments in a piece where one guy is not doing anything?" Well, sure. It would pretty much be terrible if everyone just hammered away all the time. Understand this: music is not about notes. It's about the spaces between notes. I forget which well-known musician I'm getting that from- Branford Marsalis is coming to mind. But just to mention an example, with timpani in an orchestra, a lot of times that player is just standing and waiting for the one part that they play. And it's more powerful if you don't hear it all the time.

C) "say if there is a part in a song where there is a chord, or interval, that consists of 3 notes, but the third note doesn't come until...say the 2nd bar...does this happen in a score?" Yes.

Anyway, I hope you're not ****ing around here, these are some pretty basic questions. Good luck, let me know if I can help in some way.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

how many instruments are there in an orchestra piece/band, what does each instrument do, what is the tuning of each string on the instrument.

This might help:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra1.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra2.gif

Description:

I created the two charts Instruments of the Orchestra and Their Ranges to help me when composing, and I'm sure others will find them useful too. The GIF files for Page 1 (70 KB) and Page 2 (80 KB) list the playable ranges for all of the instruments in the orchestra, and also show what ranges are appropriate for amateur players. Besides note ranges, the woodwind "break points" are also shown, so you know what note pairs are difficult to finger and should not be trilled. For trombones, the slide ranges are shown so you don't write a slide that's impossible to play. Offsets for all transposing instruments are also given.

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

Hi, I am thinking about making a score, just for fun. but i don't know anything about an orchestra piece/band, when I say that I mean like, how many instruments are there in an orchestra piece/band, what does each instrument do, what is the tuning of each string on the instrument. Like I've seen a live show(only on TV), and i see a bunch of violin players(I also been told that there are also viola players which I don't have a clue what the difference is but for now I'll call them all violin players cuz they all look the same), and i wonder do they all do? I mean do they all do the same thing? out of all the instruments, o they all play at the same time? or are there moments in a piece where one guy is not doing anything? say if there is a part in a song where there is a chord, or interval, that consists of 3 notes, but the third note doesn't come until...say the 2nd bar...does this happen in a score?

I try to analize a score, and try to pick up these things, but my ear can't grasp it, cuz the overtones on the violins and everything are so rich that i can't tell exactly how many notes are being played...

I'm sure there are plenty music score composers on gearslutz that can give me info on this...I don't have any cool softwares yet, I am just working on the sounds that I have in logic pro.

thanks...

hope you guys can tutor me...

Funny you mention that.

The other day I was thinking of sending a rocket into space. I know there's the rocket thing itself that actually blasts into space, so there's that (and it's usually painted), and then there's that room with a bunch of people using computers who help out, so I'll need them too. Anything else or is that just about it?

No offense. You should go for it! But writing orchestral scores takes a couple decades of study and practice to even begin to get right. And even then... you never stop learning. Every instrument has its idiosyncrasies, how instruments combine to make different sounds, how to translate ideas to notation to actual music that sounds good... there's a reason why so few people are good at it.

A good way to start is 1) buy and read books about orchestration to learn the mundane basics. 2) find orchestral pieces you like, listen to them, analyze them, buy the scores to follow along and understand the link between the notes on the page, the physical production of sound, and the aggregate production of orchestration, 3) write something simple for a few instrumental friends who play instruments, give them food, have them play your score, don't get discouraged when your first - 100th attempts sound like shit, take notes on everything they say 4) find someone with experience to help you, look at your scores, give you advice, in person, 5) keep at it (10-50 years recommended). Good luck!

[audio ergo sum]

THis is one of the funniest thread openings ever. thumbsup

I would guess it is actually written by someone like Hans Zimmer or so to get entertained by the responses.

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

...

I try to analize a score, ...

Ouch.
Let's start with lesson one:
The anus is not in the score but in front of it: the conductor, also often the one responsible for sodomizing it.

[R3altruth]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This might help:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra1.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra2.gif

Description:

Oh if you could just hear the trumpet range of me and my college marching band mates

[R3altruth]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

Funny you mention that.

The other day I was thinking of sending a rocket into space. I know there's the rocket thing itself that actually blasts into space, so there's that (and it's usually painted), and then there's that room with a bunch of people using computers who help out, so I'll need them too. Anything else or is that just about it?

No offense. You should go for it! But writing orchestral scores takes a couple decades of study and practice to even begin to get right. And even then... you never stop learning. Every instrument has its idiosyncrasies, how instruments combine to make different sounds, how to translate ideas to notation to actual music that sounds good... there's a reason why so few people are good at it.

A good way to start is 1) buy and read books about orchestration to learn the mundane basics. 2) find orchestral pieces you like, listen to them, analyze them, buy the scores to follow along and understand the link between the notes on the page, the physical production of sound, and the aggregate production of orchestration, 3) write something simple for a few instrumental friends who play instruments, give them food, have them play your score, don't get discouraged when your first - 100th attempts sound like shit, take notes on everything they say 4) find someone with experience to help you, look at your scores, give you advice, in person, 5) keep at it (10-50 years recommended). Good luck!

True... if you've never been in an orchestra then it will be hard to write for one....

[reid]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

The anus is not in the score but in front of it: the conductor, also often the one responsible for sodomizing it.

Very funny, and too often very true.

[loujudson]

Deeply significant in this, whether satire or serious, is the godawful junky music one hears too often, and also lots of professional musicians out of work while some clown plays at a keyboard with fake or sampled instruments... Sad it is, that anyone thinks they can be an orchestra!

Even that lame conservative Newshour on PBS recently dropped their corny old theme musc recorded with a real orchestra and now they have a cheesy synth player making fake music... Must save millions a year in royalties.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

Funny you mention that.

The other day I was thinking of sending a rocket into space. I know there's the rocket thing itself that actually blasts into space, so there's that (and it's usually painted), and then there's that room with a bunch of people using computers who help out, so I'll need them too. Anything else or is that just about it?

No offense.

LOL Ditto on that. Anyone can buy a sample library and write for "orchestra". Learning orchestration, couplings, doublings, voicings, how to weight the strings, the instruments and overall counterpoint is a life long journey. Many don't make it to the end.

From your comments (OP) it seems like you don't have a lot of legit musical training or education. I'd suggest you start there with some music theory, orchestration and arranging classes. Although I'm not a huge fan of "traditional education" when it comes to music (either you've got it in your soul or you don't), orchestration is one area that I'd say study and traditional approaches work very well.

[siloo]

Upon reading the opening to this thread, I've succumbed to a weird mixture of emotions. Rarely have I ever been so simultaneously amused, offended, shocked, and entertained by such a God-awful proposition.

Are you serious???? Really????

I think I might actually print this out and hand it out to the players at my next orchestral session. They would get a serious kick out of this. Oh, and of course, I will leave the original spelling in there for that extra added value...

BTW, please submit a recording of your first "arrangement". I can't wait....

[siloo]

Two more things:

You've got no business trying to arrange for an orchestra if you don't know what a viola is, and two, try to at least approach this whole "endeavor" with a different mindset than one which allows for word "cuz" to appear in your common everyday communication.

And good luck with that alto clef... it's a real beyotch!!!

Jeesh!!!

[joris de man]

Nah, it wouldn't be too disimilar to me coming from an orchestra rehearsal, walk up to some homies and say that I'd like to make some beats!

Seriously though, the OP should have considered a quick google...that could have told him half of his questions already.
If he is serious, then he needs to take the subject matter more serious.
You don't walk up to a band and say 'hey guys, I'd like to write for you. I don't know what the hell you're all playing, or what the difference between a guitar and a bass guitar is, but it would be kinda cool, wouldn't it......'

[drBill]

OK, in the spirit of good fun, here's a TRUE life story from the trenches in LA. For the OP - if you don't "get it" (the joke I mean) time to go back to school.

Rock artist "composer" gets hired to do a film score. (You all know this score, and most are probably familiar with the composers "record" work.) Brilliant at what he does, but has no technical or orchestral music training at all. He's on the stand, "conducting". Cue goes down and there's a trainwreck. Appears to be a bad note for the F. Hns. So, the principal horn player raises his hand and asks what their note should be. Composer analyses score and answers - "G". Pretty sure that "G" is the wrong answer, the horn player asks again "Is that a CONCERT G?". Composer : "I don't understand the question". Horn player : "Is that a CONCERT G". Composer answers back : (This is for real, no joke) "No, this isn't for a concert, it's a recording session". Orchestra tries to not fall completely on the floor in laughter. Composer looses all face with the orchestra..... Joke circulates around LA film music circles faster than a wildfire in LA during fire season.

Like the previous poster said, if you don't know what a viola is, it's time to study some more before approaching a pencil or keyboard - or God forbid - a real orchestra.....

[jrubbernek]

Damn, didn't realize that I woud get this kind of response, I come in peace...
Nah I was listening to a few music/movie score, and I was just amazed at how amazing it was. I am a music composer my self, i write stuff, and I arrange stuff just for fun but mostly POP or Rock. I am not a multi instrumentalist but I can play the guitar, bass, drums, piano/keyboard. But I have never touched any violins, or cellos. yes I can read a bit. and I am willing to read alot of books to teach my self more about orchestration. guys, don't be such a smart ass, just because you studied music for four years to 6 years, not everyone have the chance to go to expensive music schools. I have friends who read music and play the violins very well, but can't write or compose anything. or if they do it's usually shit or uninteresting or has no soul. a well written piece or music is not in the technical stuff. it starts with an idea, a good taste in music and don't forget a BIIIGGGG PASSION and SOUL for music. sure you need some skill and need to know how to play a few instrument to write a song or music. but you don't have to go to school for years to do so. especially with todays technology. even a kid can do it, if he has ideas he can get it down, he can work around the technical stuff with an actual person that can read and play music later on. but he still needs to know just a bit about the instruments and what it does, right?

I think I just forgot to mention that I was thinking of writting it on my computer, with a software. I wasn't saying that I was gonna write an orchestral piece, and hire string players to play my piece. GUys, this is gearslutz remember?. but still I can get my ideas down on a computer. but I still need to know what actual individual parts do in a piece or song. There are also sofwares like BFD or EZ drummer that has pretty realistic drums sounds, but if you wanna make it sound more human, you have to make a beat that is humanly possible to play to make it sound realistic. and then you can hire an actual drummer to play it when the demos are done and do re-take.. YOu get where I'm going here?, there are even guitar sampling sounds too, but if you don't know how to play guitar then what? you make midi notes that isn't human or possible to play on the guitar........the list goes on guys...

I'm asking this because, I don't want to make technical mistakes...like maybe I don't want the bass to be playing a note that is too high for a bass to play. or a violin that is playing a note that is too LOOWWWW..

Thanks for the replies guys...Good stuff.thumbsup...and again I come in peace

[Larry Mal]

Rubbernek, I don't think anybody here wants to discourage you. But, you're going to have to learn how to write. Like I've said, you can speak whatever language your family uses without much thought. But you have to be shown to write it.

The same is true for music. Most folks are musical to some degree. And it's becoming more and more common for folks to make music without knowing anything about it- the prevalence of the guitar is much to blame, and hip hop and sampling hasn't helped matters.

But if you want to write music, you have to first know how to write it- after all, you're giving it to someone to play, so it has to be very, very understandable. You may have never met the person- you may never meet the person- so you sort of need to be very clear on what it is you are writing.

You also need to know theory, but really, don't be scared- most folks think it's harder than it is. But otherwise you are just presented with options and no way to know how to put them together. It would be the same as handing someone a dictionary and saying, "Here's the language. Now speak it." So learn music theory. It takes time. It isn't hard.

You also need to know instruments- as many as is feasible. When I was younger, I had learned guitar, and bass guitar, and music theory (to a degree at that point). I thought I'd write a piece for a string quartet, or a violin part for a song I was writing. I quickly realized that writing on the guitar wasn't going to translate to the violin very well. I also realized that had I learned to use my voice- still a huge weakness- then I could sing what I wanted the violins and whatnot to play better than the guitar could do. I tried to learn the violin a bit- didn't get anywhere with it. So I learned piano, still a work in progress, and I can write on the keyboards for other instruments to a degree. You don't have to be the greatest musician at all of them, but it really helps to have played it as much as possible.

But whenever I can, I talk to musicians about instruments and music. The good thing is musicians are understanding and supportive folks who help each other to learn- you don't need to look any further than this forum, when we're not busting each other's balls about how Digital Performer sounds or what (it sounds great), or Mac vs. PC (****ing Mac, man).

You also need to know music. As has been pointed out, you're just not going to be able to write classical music if you don't know what it sounds like- or what a viola is, much less what voice it plays in music (which changes depending on what setting its in).

I really don't understand why anybody who wanted to make music wouldn't listen to any kind of it- jazz, bluegrass, classical, hip hop, house, reggae, afro-pop, you name it, it's all good, and it all has lessons to learn from. So get some classical music, is the easy part, and listen to it.

In short, total immersion is the key. But it's easy, and it's fun, and you can do it bit by bit for the rest of your life. And go ahead and write something while you're doing it, can't hurt. Good luck!

[jrubbernek]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This might help:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra1.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra2.gif

Description:

thanks ethan just what I needed...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

Damn, didn't realize that I woud get this kind of response, I come in peace...
Nah I was listening to a few music/movie score, and I was just amazed at how amazing it was. I am a music composer my self, i write stuff, and I arrange stuff just for fun but mostly POP or Rock. I am not a multi instrumentalist but I can play the guitar, bass, drums, piano/keyboard. But I have never touched any violins, or cellos. yes I can read a bit. and I am willing to read alot of books to teach my self more about orchestration. guys, don't be such a smart ass, just because you studied music for four years to 6 years, not everyone have the chance to go to expensive music schools. I have friends who read music and play the violins very well, but can't write or compose anything. or if they do it's usually shit or uninteresting or has no soul. a well written piece or music is not in the technical stuff. it starts with an idea, a good taste in music and don't forget a BIIIGGGG PASSION and SOUL for music. sure you need some skill and need to know how to play a few instrument to write a song or music. but you don't have to go to school for years to do so. especially with todays technology. even a kid can do it, if he has ideas he can get it down, he can work around the technical stuff with an actual person that can read and play music later on. but he still needs to know just a bit about the instruments and what it does, right?

I think I just forgot to mention that I was thinking of writting it on my computer, with a software. I wasn't saying that I was gonna write an orchestral piece, and hire string players to play my piece. GUys, this is gearslutz remember?. but still I can get my ideas down on a computer. but I still need to know what actual individual parts do in a piece or song. There are also sofwares like BFD or EZ drummer that has pretty realistic drums sounds, but if you wanna make it sound more human, you have to make a beat that is humanly possible to play to make it sound realistic. and then you can hire an actual drummer to play it when the demos are done and do re-take.. YOu get where I'm going here?, there are even guitar sampling sounds too, but if you don't know how to play guitar then what? you make midi notes that isn't human or possible to play on the guitar........the list goes on guys...

I'm asking this because, I don't want to make technical mistakes...like maybe I don't want the bass to be playing a note that is too high for a bass to play. or a violin that is playing a note that is too LOOWWWW..

Thanks for the replies guys...Good stuff.thumbsup...and again I come in peace

That's all well and good -but just because you're writing using a computer, all the rest of the basic principles apply - it's not a short cut, just an easier way to hear what you're trying to do.

You got the advice you needed in post 2 - buy a book on arranging. Assuming you can write the actual melodies, once you know the ranges and roles of instruments in a traditional-style orchestra, then you're good to go.

Orchestral/large ensemble writing is one of the areas of music where you HAVE to know some theory - it's not like playing a few notes on a guitar and humming a melody. I've studied classical music (up to A-Level), played clarinet during my education, and whilst I can write a string arrangement or some brass parts, I'd struggle with an orchestra - and that's 10 years or more of classical experience.

It's not impossible (read up on Danny Elfman's life story) without education, but it's not just learn the ranges and away you go. It's going to be hard work and a lot of self education, if you actually want to come out with something worthwhile.

Good luck!

[Larry Mal]

Hey, I didn't see your post until I had written the above. So none of it is really relevant now, but I'll leave it up, maybe someone will get something out of it.

Well, sure, there are a lot of books on orchestration and if you have some understanding of writing and theory, then you can write a few melodies and begin arranging them into more complicated songs.

Try the "Complete Idiot's" book I suggested above (I own it). It has a song that the author wrote, and you can arrange that in a lot of ways. With Logic, you can assign the parts of the song to various instruments in the EXS, and while that's gonna sound ****ing awful, you'll learn a lot from it.

Good luck!

[kiopo]

God guys, some seriously unhelpful responses! If someone hasn't had any formal music training, they may be very talented but still clueless as to how to go about writing for orchestra etc.

To the OP - like some people have said, writing for orchestra takes years and years to master (if ever), but it's really pretty simple to get started if you have a good ear. As for writing scores, that'll probably take quite a bit longer if you've never done music theory.

If you look at something like Sibelius and panic, then get a good orchestral library and play around. They can be quite educational and intuitive themselves, as you get to learn very quickly how an orchestra works, the different frequency and dynamic ranges of the various sections, and the possible playing techniques. Once you're okay with all that, you really only have to worry about learning to translate all that onto a score, which you could probably learn in 3-4 years. So, if you have a good ear and can play keyboard pretty well, just throw yourself in at the deep end and see what happens.

If you just want to use an orchestra to reinforce your rock / pop work, then this is probably as far as you need to go. Professional songwriters tend to get arrangers to do this work for them anyhow. Even for TV / Games / Animation, you often find very talented people working who didn't have a formal music education.

I'm sure those of us with music degrees would agree that even though you gain a lot in technique, proficiency and the speed at which you work, there's still no substitute for raw talent. If you have it, then it is achievable to learn all the rest.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more advice on writing for orchestra.

[thehuman]

Originally Posted by siloo

Two more things:

You've got no business trying to arrange for an orchestra if you don't know what a viola is, and two, try to at least approach this whole "endeavor" with a different mindset than one which allows for word "cuz" to appear in your common everyday communication.

And good luck with that alto clef... it's a real beyotch!!!

Jeesh!!!

Geez, what an asshole. (This AND your previous post.)

Heaven forbid someone who is not as much of a genius as yourself try something new and tickle his creative fancy, if only for fun. He never said he was going to try to submit it to the New York Philharmonic. Relax a bit, snob.

[jrubbernek]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

Rubbernek, I don't think anybody here wants to discourage you. But, you're going to have to learn how to write. Like I've said, you can speak whatever language your family uses without much thought. But you have to be shown to write it.

The same is true for music. Most folks are musical to some degree. And it's becoming more and more common for folks to make music without knowing anything about it- the prevalence of the guitar is much to blame, and hip hop and sampling hasn't helped matters.

But if you want to write music, you have to first know how to write it- after all, you're giving it to someone to play, so it has to be very, very understandable. You may have never met the person- you may never meet the person- so you sort of need to be very clear on what it is you are writing.

You also need to know theory, but really, don't be scared- most folks think it's harder than it is. But otherwise you are just presented with options and no way to know how to put them together. It would be the same as handing someone a dictionary and saying, "Here's the language. Now speak it." So learn music theory. It takes time. It isn't hard.

You also need to know instruments- as many as is feasible. When I was younger, I had learned guitar, and bass guitar, and music theory (to a degree at that point). I thought I'd write a piece for a string quartet, or a violin part for a song I was writing. I quickly realized that writing on the guitar wasn't going to translate to the violin very well. I also realized that had I learned to use my voice- still a huge weakness- then I could sing what I wanted the violins and whatnot to play better than the guitar could do. I tried to learn the violin a bit- didn't get anywhere with it. So I learned piano, still a work in progress, and I can write on the keyboards for other instruments to a degree. You don't have to be the greatest musician at all of them, but it really helps to have played it as much as possible.

But whenever I can, I talk to musicians about instruments and music. The good thing is musicians are understanding and supportive folks who help each other to learn- you don't need to look any further than this forum, when we're not busting each other's balls about how Digital Performer sounds or what (it sounds great), or Mac vs. PC (****ing Mac, man).

You also need to know music. As has been pointed out, you're just not going to be able to write classical music if you don't know what it sounds like- or what a viola is, much less what voice it plays in music (which changes depending on what setting its in).

I really don't understand why anybody who wanted to make music wouldn't listen to any kind of it- jazz, bluegrass, classical, hip hop, house, reggae, afro-pop, you name it, it's all good, and it all has lessons to learn from. So get some classical music, is the easy part, and listen to it.

In short, total immersion is the key. But it's easy, and it's fun, and you can do it bit by bit for the rest of your life. And go ahead and write something while you're doing it, can't hurt. Good luck!

...I know abit of music theory my self. but self tought...I never had the luxury to go to expensive music schools, but I wish I did. I can read a bit. I know music composition. I have a fairly good listening skill. I have already listened to a bunch of classical music, but I find it difficult to tell appart of which instrument is doing what? you know what I mean? if it is a quartet then maybe yeah I can tell, but even then I still have trouble, cuz I have no clue what the lowest note of the Bass is, or the cello...etc..

and I listen to pretty much anything, rock, blues, jazz, pop, hip hop, RnB, you name it.

[jrubbernek]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

Hey, I didn't see your post until I had written the above. So none of it is really relevant now, but I'll leave it up, maybe someone will get something out of it.

Well, sure, there are a lot of books on orchestration and if you have some understanding of writing and theory, then you can write a few melodies and begin arranging them into more complicated songs.

Try the "Complete Idiot's" book I suggested above (I own it). It has a song that the author wrote, and you can arrange that in a lot of ways. With Logic, you can assign the parts of the song to various instruments in the EXS, and while that's gonna sound ****ing awful, you'll learn a lot from it.

Good luck!

Thanks mate, I will look it up..I am also looking the complete idiot's guide to music theory...is that any good?

[Saudade]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

I try to analize a score, and try to pick up these things, but my ear can't grasp it, cuz the overtones on the violins and everything are so rich that i can't tell exactly how many notes are being played...

tutt It's never good to analize anything

you asked a very wide topic that people spend a lifetime figuring out. For a start read up on books. Or go to the Garritan website where there are some tutorials or basic info about orchestral writing. Or the Northern Sounds forum (if it still exists).

[jrubbernek]

What's up with the "do not analize" thing with you people? there are already 2 people laughing at me about it.....what is it? is it wrong to analize a piece of orchestra, am i missing something here? cuz I constantly do it...I'd listen to something and i go...woah that's a cool little line there, or oooh that's an awesome synth sound, or oooh how many instruments are there in that part? or like "damn, that is deffinately a fender telecaster, I know that sound!!" or "how the hell did dave grohl do those amazing drum fills in that song?"

well that's my version of analizing, I don't know about you maestros...

you get what I mean?

[Larry Mal]

The word is "analyze". You are saying you want to "anal-ize" the goddamned orchestra.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This might help:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra1.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/orchestra2.gif

Description:

formula?

[siloo]

Originally Posted by thehuman

Geez, what an asshole. (This AND your previous post.)

Heaven forbid someone who is not as much of a genius as yourself try something new and tickle his creative fancy, if only for fun. He never said he was going to try to submit it to the New York Philharmonic. Relax a bit, snob.

Hey, pal. I'm certainly not claiming to be a genius, but come on. Just because someone is really great at Guitar Hero doesn't mean he can arrange music for a rock band.

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that both of my comments probably were a little over the top and could have been ratcheted down a notch or three, but the general sentiment remains. Although I applaud the OP for the sense of adventure, it will save him hours, days, weeks, perhaps months or years of frustration by hunkering down and getting some serious training, formal or otherwise, before diving into this type of arranging. Just getting some "softwares" and dabbling with it just isn't going to get him anywhere anytime soon.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by jrubbernek

What's up with the "do not analize" thing with you people? there are already 2 people laughing at me about it.....what is it? is it wrong to analize a piece of orchestra, am i missing something here? cuz I constantly do it...I'd listen to something and i go...woah that's a cool little line there, or oooh that's an awesome synth sound, or oooh how many instruments are there in that part? or like "damn, that is deffinately a fender telecaster, I know that sound!!" or "how the hell did dave grohl do those amazing drum fills in that song?"

well that's my version of analizing, I don't know about you maestros...

you get what I mean?

Please tell us where you are from and how old you are to put this into perspective, otherwise it really hurts the mind to read this.
Orchestration skills - more complex writing in music - are pretty much processed in the same brain areas than language processing. So it might be a better idea if you spare your environment your orchestration attempts, as I wold prefer you would spare us your attempts at using written language.

Writing scores has a lot in common with writing language artistically. First you have to master the many rules about spelling and grammar. From there you can start getting creative. But there is no shortcut.
I suggest you stick to a field that requires less knowledge and can be handled more intuitively.
If you happen to be a genius with melodic and rhythmical ideas only, you might want to think about hiring a skilled arranger.

[uncle duncan]

A realistic approach would be to find a local orchestra and get permission to sit in on some rehearsals. Or at least go to some performances. That would be a good way to familiarize yourself with what the different instruments are doing. Or even find some video on Youtube or PBS or something.

Using the charts Ethan linked, you could probably approximate what an orchestra would do, but keep in mind, even if you had Danny Elfman writing your score, it's all going to come down to the actual music. If your music is compelling, it won't really matter how you score it. If it's not compelling, well... what's that old saying? "You can dress up a pig, but it's still a pig." Or is it, "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it won't turn into a bulldog."

Good luck.