the ultimate Mac vs. PC slam death fest

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Subversounds

Some examples of fine PC mods that macs cant do:

Priceless! Utterly freakin' priceless.

I also want to dish out props to Suda Badri for his excellent curation of varioius Mac vs PC graphics and vids. (The one I didn't see, though it may have been in there, was the 'transformers' style ani. That thing is magical. Or maybe I was just easy to amuse that day. )


FWIW, my beloved old Dell (a P4HT 2.8, no rocketship by today's standards) is probably as quiet as it is (and it's so quiet that the first time I turned it on, I thought it didn't power up and was about to kick it when I looked up and saw the flippin' Windows XP logo on the screen) is because it's got a big, nutty-looking hole in both sides that goes straight through, providing a huge air intake that goes across a pretty massive heat sink.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by MonkeyAdam

I know, I know. It's more of a case of devil's advocate to the point where I'm annoyed with myself too.

As it happens, once breeched, it was possible for the hack to hijack services that run as root. But this usually can't happen without user interaction, but also it can be done in very slick ways. Suffice to say that I found the details I was looking for.

Life was so much simpler before dynamic scripting languages...

I actually went back and toned that down [edit: before I read your post quoted here]... I am definitely sorry about the tone of that comment. Not really in keeping with the basically fun spirit of this thread.

As I think we've both noted before, you and I have a similar tenacity when arguing something out that occasionally might lead us astray from our normal conviviality and good cheer. (Wait, am I talking about me, there? Let's say my aspiration to conviviality and good cheer. )

Anyhow, you're a good guy, MoneyAdam, and I wish you -- and everyone else here on all sides of all fights -- a warm and happy holiday season. (Uh, unless you're in the middle of an Australian or other southern hemisphere desert or tropical zone in the middle of summer, then I wish you a cool and comfortable holiday season!)




_______

But don't let that sudden outbreak of positive vibes spoil anyone's fun -- back to your arguments, guys! We probably won't have this opportunity again for a long time...

And in keeping with last bit, and getting back to the PWN2OWN contest: these are drive-by browser attacks bringing down (all) the machines (where applicable); not socially engineered exploits that require a download and install by the user.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

I was gonna get into a long post about vulnerabilities but isnt the thread for it. Put simply...ALL computers are vulnerable to attack... they all share a common trait........ THE END USER.

Mac vs PC

Ha!!! you are ALL using PCs - Personal Computers. Unless you are typing from a Database Server- then you are excluded.

OSX vs Windoze vs Linux.....

well of all three of them....Linux will be the first to make your coffee in the mornings due to someone in the Open-Source Community feeling the need to add as a peripheral a coffee maker and app upon timed boot-up.

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by MonkeyAdam

Off the top of my head, I was referring to expose´, spaces, the dock, stacks, etc., not to mention a number of excellent conveniences afforded by the trackpad on my MBP. Windows is starting to compete with these kind of features, so... good for them.

OH yeah I was meaning windows 7 does all that... I am enjoying your posts man!

[Subversounds]

Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM

I was gonna get into a long post about vulnerabilities but isnt the thread for it. Put simply...ALL computers are vulnerable to attack... they all share a common trait........ THE END USER.

I'll add again. It is usually a problem between the screen and the chair.

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Priceless! Utterly freakin' priceless.

I also want to dish out props to Suda Badri for his excellent curation of varioius Mac vs PC graphics and vids. (The one I didn't see, though it may have been in there, was the 'transformers' style ani. That thing is magical. Or maybe I was just easy to amuse that day. )


FWIW, my beloved old Dell (a P4HT 2.8, no rocketship by today's standards) is probably as quiet as it is (and it's so quiet that the first time I turned it on, I thought it didn't power up and was about to kick it when I looked up and saw the flippin' Windows XP logo on the screen) is because it's got a big, nutty-looking hole in both sides that goes straight through, providing a huge air intake that goes across a pretty massive heat sink.

Hey mate, you might like macspoofs.com and knowyourmeme/macsvspc might have to search... some funny shit... I dont know where macs stand with audio engineers but the general consensus across the wider interwebs, amongst the funny memes, is mac addicts cant handle a joke as well as the windows guys... dont really care what that says about the os but the users are a lot easier to annoy... or check out the original gods of LULZ 4chan... they have the best ever.

[Timur Born]

Geez, all the paranoia in here. Just use a router (prevents anything coming in from the outside without even needing any Firewall) and if you need to install software from an unknown source use an antivirus to scan through it.

I've installed plenty office PCs that costs alot less than 1000$ (including Windows) and did neither break down nor get virus invested in *years*. Sure there are lots of vulnerabilities, but it's not like the world is on fire.

Get a grip guys and stop working on marketing for companies that don't pay you (but you pay them)!

[tuRnitUpsuM]

Originally Posted by Subversounds

I'll add again. It is usually a problem between the screen and the chair.

Yes, but for people running computers of the fruit variety unless they see it as a GUI " stating END USER" it never happened. Innuendo does not work correctly in their case.

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by Subversounds

Some examples of fine PC mods that macs cant do:

They would love these pics over on the geekslutz forum... MAN I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE!!!! CRACKED UP SO HARD!!!! Ill even type it HAHAHAHAAHAH WARHRHHAHAH

[Bob800]

More facts:

I think we can all agree that majority of professional musicians and commercial studio owners use a Mac. Just go to any studio and pretty much always you will find a Mac there.

Fact is that there are a LOT more amateur musicians and bedroom studio owners than "pro guys" (who make living with their computers). Most (almost all) of the amateurs use a PC. Suprise! Not really.

Now I know there will be people shouting out "I have a commercial studio with PC and I am a professional". Ok fine, but you are the minority, a rare case and it´s probably not a very good idea considering this cut throat music industry. Because the consensus running PC in commercial studio is not thought to be very professional. Sorry, but that´s just the way it is.

I know many commercial studios and professional engineers personally. Each of them use a Mac and recommend it. Now what does that tell you? Why doesn´t every professional studio have a PC? Please tell me that...

Could it just happen to be that Macs are overall better and more reliable? No? Well keep living in denial then...

It´s actually quite cute and funny that the PC fanboys here are trying to tell people, that the 90% (hypothetical number) amateur musicians (who use PC) use a superior computer with superior operating system and that the 10% professional musicians (who use Mac) who makes living and trust their lives on their computer uses the inferior computer. HAHAHAHAHA, good one!

Case closed.

[Bob800]

Originally Posted by Subversounds
Some examples of fine PC mods that macs cant do:

Hahahah! That´s just disgusting!!!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Suda Badri

Hey mate, you might like macspoofs.com and knowyourmeme/macsvspc might have to search... some funny shit... I dont know where macs stand with audio engineers but the general consensus across the wider interwebs, amongst the funny memes, is mac addicts cant handle a joke as well as the windows guys... dont really care what that says about the os but the users are a lot easier to annoy... or check out the original gods of LULZ 4chan... they have the best ever.

Oh... I don't think any one side has got a lock on anything. I see some pretty nutty darksiders saying some pretty unsupportable things. I like arguing the middle, but it's hard, in the case of OS v OS, since I only own a PC and actually prefer XP, clunky looks and all.

Actually, I've got a growing fondness for Linux myself, even though I'm not currently running it locally. But I've been developing a customer resources/relations management system running on a Linux based server (on the web). I came from doing ASP/DotNet web dev, although I've tended to use MySQL DBs as well as SQLServer but I've been seduced by the Open Source tools and platforms I've been using... Linux and PHP have proven to be a robust and rich dev platform.

Mind you, I give MS big props for really trying to make DotNet a rich environment -- they have a lot of great tools, many of them with decent free versions -- but I had begun to feel really tied to what was essentially a kind of verticalized dev environment. I felt like, if MS decided to jog right when I thought left would be nice, I was pretty well stuck.

Working in the Open Source community, there's much more of a feeling that your work today won't necessarily be orphaned by someone else's decisions tomorrow. (That said, there are downsides to the multifaceted, multi-party dev environment.)

In a funny -- but somewhat analogous -- way, I found working as a MS DotNet oriented guy was more than a little like basing your personal computing system on a single-party platform. You're just too much at the mercy of one entity's decisions.

That said, it's probably going to be a while before I can carry that through to its logical extension and go Open Source/*nix at home. (But I'm keeping an eye on things. Slowly but surely, we're moving in the right direction.)

[Timur Born]

As a user of both MACs and PCs, OS X and Windows I really find it hillarious how some people argue around here.

But unfortunately I have to say that the MAC fans look worse, because to me it seems like the PC guys generally try to say "Hey, PCs are not worse than MACs, but cheaper" while the MAC guys keep saying "My computer is better than yours and I wont allow no argument about it".

That being said: I'm just getting paid alot of money to install Windows 7 on six new IMacs in an architecture office. The architect likes the form factor and design of the hardware while needing/wanting Windows for work. One of the six Macs was bought as spare because the architect knows about the questionable support times of Apple and can afford to have it just standing around in the corner (one spare Imac doesn't cost much more than 5 x Care Protection Plan anyway).

And this is the point where I'm laughing my *ss off about all the fanboy posts of both sides! fuuck

[theblue1]

Well... I think this thread is kinda for the fan boyz on all sides... I mean, it seems like it was given to us in a spirit of Get it all out of your system, now, kids...

So, you know, if there's ever a time or place for platform chauvinism here, this is probably it.

I've had some good laughs and, once I caught and corrected myself when I started taking myself too seriously, it all came back into perspective, again: just a wee bit of mindless fun on a holiday hump day.

[shangoe]

accept it.

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by Bob800

More facts:

I think we can all agree that majority of professional musicians and commercial studio owners use a Mac. Just go to any studio and pretty much always you will find a Mac there.

Fact is that there are a LOT more amateur musicians and bedroom studio owners than "pro guys" (who make living with their computers). Most (almost all) of the amateurs use a PC. Suprise! Not really.

Now I know there will be people shouting out "I have a commercial studio with PC and I am a professional". Ok fine, but you are the minority, a rare case and it´s probably not a very good idea considering this cut throat music industry. Because the consensus running PC in commercial studio is not thought to be very professional. Sorry, but that´s just the way it is.

I know many commercial studios and professional engineers personally. Each of them use a Mac and recommend it. Now what does that tell you? Why doesn´t every professional studio have a PC? Please tell me that...

Could it just happen to be that Macs are overall better and more reliable? No? Well keep living in denial then...

It´s actually quite cute and funny that the PC fanboys here are trying to tell people, that the 90% (hypothetical number) amateur musicians (who use PC) use a superior computer with superior operating system and that the 10% professional musicians (who use Mac) who makes living and trust their lives on their computer uses the inferior computer. HAHAHAHAHA, good one!

Case closed.

I would bet majority of studios dont use macs, most of the studios I have visited used windows, india, singapore, malaysia, indonesia, new zealand (its changing now though) and australia... it would be cool to see what the verdict is in ten years time (maybe the future for audio is mac, who knows?) I think SAE is a good source of giving macs to audio engineers... I have been to SAE... I use mac.... thats got nothing to do with reliability, its got to do with image and nose in the air type shit... and I reckon you are plain wrong... but one way to know how many audio engineers use what is to ask the manufacturers and see what they sell more of mac or windows plug, daws or anything audio thats gotta interface, like wonder if pro tools, cubase has any figures on how many of their systems run on what?... most electronic musicians i come across use windows or they are mac logic hard... I think its great musicians have all these options now, no point saying one is best when everything works for someone.... also you cant close a case in a death match.... one of us has to die....

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Working in the Open Source community, there's much more of a feeling that your work today won't necessarily be orphaned by someone else's decisions tomorrow. (That said, there are downsides to the multifaceted, multi-party dev environment.)

thats so cool....

[Suda Badri]

Hitler finds out about windows launch party!

[woodhenge]

Originally Posted by TAFKAT

I know the build quality and how it compares to 3rd parties, my comments still stand.

Ok... I missed the 3rd-party reference before. My bad. Of course an aftermarket board is better... Generally, all aftermarket parts for anything exceed OEM-issue, be it computer parts, guitar parts, or car parts. However, compared to the build quality of the average OEM PC, I'd rank the Mac Pro on the high end, wouldn't you? Workstation-class Xeon machines are generally more robust than the run-of-the-mill consumer PC. Agree?

Originally Posted by TAFKAT

..enlighten me how you consider Apples implementation superior to the current BIOS implementations on modern 3rd party boards. Apple didn't use the EFI because it was superior, they used it to try and stop the flood of users being able to load OSX on non official hardware. What I find laughable is that the EFI implementation is crippling their systems.

Actually, I was told by an Apple engineer first-hand as to why they chose to use EFI... In a nutshell, it allowed them to continue the "open firmware" trend from the PPC days, NOT as a DRM measure. (Note: this conversation was before any Intel Macs actually shipped, even before bootcamp existed...) BIOS wouldn't allow the flexibility they were used to, so that's where it landed. Makes sense, really... BTW, the x86 Project has a great wiki page on the Apple take on EFI. As for how it 'cripples' their system, I'm completely in the dark there... Maybe you can enlighten us?


One thing that seems to be overlooked in all this bantering is the fact that a Mac is still a Mac, and a PC is still a PC. They might share a similar architecture and components, but they are not the same when you get down to the nuts and bolts (or lack of nuts and bolts) of it. Even though they may come off the same assembly line. Even though they both are based on x86. As much as people want to argue, they're NOT the same...

And, I'm still agnostic. They're all just tools to me. Both have advantages and disadvantages. But, both fill a purpose and work quite well... most of the time!

[woodhenge]

Originally Posted by m127

Case close? In your head? Right.

I think the point of the matter for many professionals (especially the customers of professionals in the field) is: I don't give a **** if 99.9 of "professionals" in the world (which is not a fact either) use macs as long as the job gets done.

I was just over on this thread:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...u-use-own.html

Your conversation came into my mind, and I noticed something quite interesting that relates to this 'debate'. On the poll percentage totals, take note of the numbers for Logic and Digital Performer. It was 31.35% for Logic and 23.18% for DP at my post-time.

Those 2 DAW's... that combined cover over 50%... are ALL Macs. Not to mention the countless Pro Tools users that use Macs in that other 30% chunk. And then all the others. Interesting... a lot more Macs than I figured.

Just had to share that.... carry on....

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Suda Badri

Hitler finds out about windows launch party!

Mmm... that's good... er...gut!

[Unrealworld82]

Dude. Which category do you fall into?

Mac or PC?

Pro or Joe?

I used to be a devoted OSX/Logic guru. for many years. Now, I use Windows 7 and Reaper.

One day it occurred to me that my skills transcend the need for that Mac status symbol - or the need for any one software.

Give me any DAW on the market, on any OS and I can get a quality result. Not trying to talk s%^& or anything, it's just a pissing contest that I grew tired of.

And I'm not dogging on Macs - not at all - they are great, solid, and simple. I will say that generally, if you compare hardware dollars Apple to hardware dollars PC, you tend to get more raw statistics with PC, no doubt about it.

But statistics yield only to results.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Bob800

More facts:

I think we can all agree that majority of professional musicians and commercial studio owners use a Mac. Just go to any studio and pretty much always you will find a Mac there.

Fact is that there are a LOT more amateur musicians and bedroom studio owners than "pro guys" (who make living with their computers). Most (almost all) of the amateurs use a PC. Suprise! Not really.

Now I know there will be people shouting out "I have a commercial studio with PC and I am a professional". Ok fine, but you are the minority, a rare case and it´s probably not a very good idea considering this cut throat music industry. Because the consensus running PC in commercial studio is not thought to be very professional. Sorry, but that´s just the way it is.

I know many commercial studios and professional engineers personally. Each of them use a Mac and recommend it. Now what does that tell you? Why doesn´t every professional studio have a PC? Please tell me that...

Could it just happen to be that Macs are overall better and more reliable? No? Well keep living in denial then...

It´s actually quite cute and funny that the PC fanboys here are trying to tell people, that the 90% (hypothetical number) amateur musicians (who use PC) use a superior computer with superior operating system and that the 10% professional musicians (who use Mac) who makes living and trust their lives on their computer uses the inferior computer. HAHAHAHAHA, good one!

Case closed.

[robertshaw]

The bottom line osx is based on bsd which is unix. By deafualt
all unix permissions are set to high security

NT/win2k/viista are also based on a unix style os caled VMS -

VMS = v^W m^N s^T if you know your alphabet
by default windows permisisons are NOT set to high security

I've been using Windows NT since 1993, I have NEVER got a virus or spyware in that 16 year period. Why? simple I lock my machine
down like a default unix install.

If hackers wanted to destroy osx it could be done easier since it is open source at its core. Don't kid yourselves it's coming. In fact it probably already happend and you just don't know it

the tides will turn.......... it will be a Elnino x10 for mac users. duck before you hold your heads up to high you might get wacked

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by woodhenge

I was just over on this thread:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...u-use-own.html

Your conversation came into my mind, and I noticed something quite interesting that relates to this 'debate'. On the poll percentage totals, take note of the numbers for Logic and Digital Performer. It was 31.35% for Logic and 23.18% for DP at my post-time.

Those 2 DAW's... that combined cover over 50%... are ALL Macs. Not to mention the countless Pro Tools users that use Macs in that other 30% chunk. And then all the others. Interesting... a lot more Macs than I figured.

Just had to share that.... carry on....

Percentages don't mean much in that thread its a multichoice....

[TAFKAT]

Originally Posted by woodhenge

Ok... I missed the 3rd-party reference before. My bad. Of course an aftermarket board is better... Generally, all aftermarket parts for anything exceed OEM-issue, be it computer parts, guitar parts, or car parts. However, compared to the build quality of the average OEM PC, I'd rank the Mac Pro on the high end, wouldn't you? Workstation-class Xeon machines are generally more robust than the run-of-the-mill consumer PC. Agree?

No argument, but I don't build run of the mill PC's, I build professional workstation class DAW's.. :-)

FWIW: Top end Dell workstations are on par with MP's, and use very similar OEM components.

Actually, I was told by an Apple engineer first-hand as to why they chose to use EFI... In a nutshell, it allowed them to continue the "open firmware" trend from the PPC days, NOT as a DRM measure. (Note: this conversation was before any Intel Macs actually shipped, even before bootcamp existed...) BIOS wouldn't allow the flexibility they were used to, so that's where it landed. Makes sense, really... BTW, the x86 Project has a great wiki page on the Apple take on EFI. As for how it 'cripples' their system, I'm completely in the dark there... Maybe you can enlighten us?

I have heard all of the arguments of why EFI was supposed to be superior, but it hasn't really panned out in many respects, and in regards to the firmware being more open, I would suggest the complete opposite is actually the case with the Apple implementation. In regards to how it is crippling the hardware is due to its inflexible and closed nature , there is no facility to control and arbitrate the C Halt states and EIST ( Speedstepping ) effectively , coupled with OSX's inablity to control EIST at the kernel level efficiently and we have the current situation where there are wild fluctuations in clockspeed which is neutering the mp x-scaling potential, add hyperthreading with its virtualised cores into the equation which the task scheduler is not handling well at all, and we have the current scaling issues that are well documented across a few threads here.

If you check out my Nehalem Hyperthreading thread here, you can get a good grounding of the performance variables I just highlighted.

One thing that seems to be overlooked in all this bantering is the fact that a Mac is still a Mac, and a PC is still a PC. They might share a similar architecture and components, but they are not the same when you get down to the nuts and bolts (or lack of nuts and bolts) of it. Even though they may come off the same assembly line. Even though they both are based on x86. As much as people want to argue, they're NOT the same...

Maybe in the old days when all men used MAC and sheep were nervous, i.e, PPC

The only difference since crossing to the dark side with Intel, is Apple's choice to use their variation of EFI , once that is circumnavigated on 3rd party hardware, dramatic improvements can be had by those that take that route.

Its not for everyone tho.. :-)

PC V MAC arguments are now reserved for the O.S, those that continue to argue over the actual hardware need to take a breath, as that no longer has any relevence especially with OSx86....

[andsonic]

Originally Posted by Bob800

More facts:

I think we can all agree that majority of professional musicians and commercial studio owners use a Mac. Just go to any studio and pretty much always you will find a Mac there.

Fact is that there are a LOT more amateur musicians and bedroom studio owners than "pro guys" (who make living with their computers). Most (almost all) of the amateurs use a PC. Suprise! Not really.

Now I know there will be people shouting out "I have a commercial studio with PC and I am a professional". Ok fine, but you are the minority, a rare case and it´s probably not a very good idea considering this cut throat music industry. Because the consensus running PC in commercial studio is not thought to be very professional. Sorry, but that´s just the way it is.

I know many commercial studios and professional engineers personally. Each of them use a Mac and recommend it. Now what does that tell you? Why doesn´t every professional studio have a PC? Please tell me that...

Could it just happen to be that Macs are overall better and more reliable? No? Well keep living in denial then...

It´s actually quite cute and funny that the PC fanboys here are trying to tell people, that the 90% (hypothetical number) amateur musicians (who use PC) use a superior computer with superior operating system and that the 10% professional musicians (who use Mac) who makes living and trust their lives on their computer uses the inferior computer. HAHAHAHAHA, good one!

Case closed.

you missed a couple of a qualifiers like:
...studios in the USA.
&
... users who are using DAWs such as Logic or ProTools

Many more PC-based DAWs in Europe (or apparently Asia) then in the
US (except perhaps Nashville).

Also one needs to take in to account market segments. Probably the DAW that is getting used most in mastering studios is Sequoia, which is PC-based, whilst film composers are using Logic or DP, which are Mac-based. Then again, many film sound folks are using Pyramix or Nuendo, which are PC-based.
I think most folks choose the app best suited for their facility, then the type of PC, and flavor of OS follows that choice.

[MonkeyAdam]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

the tides will turn.......... it will be a Elnino x10 for mac users. duck before you hold your heads up to high you might get wacked

All this doomsday talk reminds of why banks are still on mainframes. I'm always glad I chose music instead of that career path. It was a tough choice.

[woodhenge]

@TAFKAT:

Thanks for the EFI wisdom... you definitely know your stuff!

I guess I'm still stuck in the mindset that the platform is entirely different than the PC, even though I know it's not actually the case hardware-wise. I'm still scarred from the 68040->601 switch, I think.

[rolo95]

Originally Posted by woodhenge

He's talking about the fact that there are zero cables in a Mac Pro. The sata connectors are on the motherboard, and the drives snap directly into them. Very slick, and very convenient to install additional HD's.

Yeah...
and wait until you drop the MF... and CAPUT....
the backplane where the hard drives attached ... ripped off...RUIN

You need to wait until APPLE send a NASA Certified TECH
to do the JOb...and bring the new backplane... and or motherboard

On a pC... you just put new drives if any and thats it...
you dont need that to Call the MEin In black to fix your stuff
MAC SUCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS bIG TIMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Man what a waste of junk on a "shiny" Heavy as hell and break the bank
Package

[woodhenge]

Originally Posted by Suda Badri

Percentages don't mean much in that thread its a multichoice....

Agreed.

Although, I personally don't know any Logic guys that also use DP... I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but probably not as numerous as the Logic/Pro Tools or DP/Pro Tools users are. Even if you take the cross-platform DAWs out of the equation, the numbers are still pretty interesting.

Either way, dominance of a particular platform doesn't mean it's necessarily better or worse. I just though it was interesting, given the conversation at hand.