Logic 10 - What do you want?

[KorgAddict]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Me neither. I'm perfectly fine with almost any of Logics "graphic aspects". In fact, I find it a whole lot more easy on the eyes than just about anything else from the competition - and IMO that makes it easier to use, too.

But well, I hope Logic will go *any* route at all.
These days, it defenitely doesn't look like it. V9 is almost exactly 3 years old already. That's quite some age in the digital world. I can't remember such a long time without a significant (read: version number) update for any sequencer - unless they were entirely discontinued, that is.

Now, if there were no bugs and nothing else missing, it'd be all fine with me, but unfortunately there's quite some bugs and quite some things missing.
I for one am looking for alternatives already.

So, no Logic 10 wishes from me anymore, others than Apple showing they're really taking care of it any longer. Which they most likely don't do.
Too sad.

- Sascha

Man, you're in Germany, can't you go over at Apple/eMagic office, disguise as a repair man of some sorts and sneak a peak for us?

Ka

[Broken]

Originally Posted by KorgAddict

Man, you're in Germany, can't you go over at Apple/eMagic office, disguise as a repair man of some sorts and sneak a peak for us?

Ka

James Bond style.

[The Beatsmith]

fwiw, they've relocated to san francisco...

easier to work on garageband for ipad from there.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

But well, I hope Logic will go *any* route at all.
These days, it defenitely doesn't look like it. V9 is almost exactly 3 years old already. That's quite some age in the digital world. I can't remember such a long time without a significant (read: version number) update for any sequencer

What about the three years between Logic 7 and Logic 8? ;-)

As you may have noticed, I think Logic is a great DAW already. But if they really want to revolutionize Logic; the audio engine, the user interface etc, it will take time. The current Logic version is a result of 20 years of development, and the main thing which has happened in that period is that acquired took over Emagic. If they would redesign Logic, it would both take a lot of time and maybe even involve some changes in Apple's OS.

Either Logic is gradually being developed, or they are working on something more major, like a redesign. And, as I have mentioned in some other thread, I have been told by a person I trust that the Apple team is still working passionately on making the best tool for music creation.

There are no signs of Logic (or it's successor, if they're working on one) not being developed - or that this development doesn't happen in Germany. And maybe they are both working on some great improvements *and* had some delay for reasons like hiring new people/replacing some developers etc. I wouldn't know, but I'm 100% sure they are working on something great.

I can imagine a lot of interesting improvements being worked on - for the sample editor/audio editing, MIDI, score editor, piano roll, arrange window, the inspector/media/list area and in terms of the overall workflow. They probably look for something more than just adding a some key commands/features which other DAWs already have, fixing some bugs or adding a new plugin or two.

It's actually possible to be really happy about Logic and still see room for major improvement. The kind of improvement I'd like to see in Logic is about taking directions towards stuff no other DAWs are doing, and I guess a major rewrite easily could take 4-5 years. If nothing will be revealed by 2014, I'll be worried too. :-)

One side effect of spending a lot of time on the development is that those who aren't really happy with Logic, eg. because they rather want something like Cubase/StudioOne/Pro Tools, actually may move over to some other DAW before a Apple releases something new. Maybe that's best both for Apple and those who think that Logic isn't already a brilliant DAW? ;-)

[Leevi]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Either Logic is gradually being developed, or they are working on something more major, like a redesign. And, as I have mentioned in some other thread, I have been told by a person I trust that the Apple team is still working passionately on making the best tool for music creation.

They are definitely working on it. But my source also told that not to have too high hopes about the features of the next version, whatever it means...

Im pretty sure that on this board, we have also other users who know about the development of Logic X, but are not allowed to speak.

[thirdsun]

Originally Posted by matt thomas

My preference is one that is designed specifically with computer screens in mind, but also aesthetically pleasing. Like ableton live.

Once you start getting modeled parts, or 3d things, you might as well go as far as this reaper theme.

I think logic is pretty ugly, which is distracting. I'd rather have a visually pleasing t-shirt, house, car, OS, phone or whatever, vs a functionally equal ugly one. Of course everyone's idea of ugly is different.

Ableton looked like it was designed by a designer
Pro Tools looks like it was designed by a computer programmer who didn't care about aesthetics. Which is fine.
Logic on the other hand, looks like it was designed by a computer programmer who was trying to make it look cool, but they should have stuck to programming.

YMMV

Matt

I agree - the idea of replicating physical hardware controls on a computer screen seems outdated to me. These skeuomorphic approaches to interface design have a long history with Apple and Audio developers in general though. Ableton got that right, Microsofts Metro design language too - both are very "digital" and try to get rid of gimicky wooden panels, switches that throw shadows and so on.
In my opinion this provides a superior workflow and once 64 Bit support becomes stable in Ableton, I might turn my back on Logic as I really enjoy the intuitive workflow that comes with Live.

[musicl]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

I guess a major rewrite easily could take 4-5 years. If nothing will be revealed by 2014, I'll be worried too. :-)

I'm worried already! 3 years is too long, 4 years and I'm on another DAW.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Leevi

They are definitely working on it. But my source also told that not to have too high hopes about the features of the next version, whatever it means...

It could maybe mean that they both are working on a 'normal' new version and on some kind of redesign process/preparation, which won't materialize itself until some time after the coming release, e.g. Logic 11 or ********* 1.0? Or that they are doing under-the-hood changes in Logic 10, and add more features etc in Logic 11? Or, alternatively, that your source have no idea of what's happening? :-)

The Logic 10-What Do You Want? and Logic X Rumors threads are melting into each other now.... :-)

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by KorgAddict

Man, you're in Germany, can't you go over at Apple/eMagic office, disguise as a repair man of some sorts and sneak a peak for us?

In fact, I have been in Rellingen (somewhat north of Hamburg) 2 times in the past already. But I won't go there again, disguised or not...

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

fwiw, they've relocated to san francisco...

Many of the developers still seem to work at the old location. But two of the main programmers (Mr. Lengeling and Mr. Fritze) moved to SF/Cupertino indeed.

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

What about the three years between Logic 7 and Logic 8? ;-)

Too long already. And the results being less than overwhelming - for me personally, at least. IMO they messed up just as much as they "improved".
YMMV, of course.

As you may have noticed, I think Logic is a great DAW already. But if they really want to revolutionize Logic; the audio engine, the user interface etc, it will take time. The current Logic version is a result of 20 years of development, and the main thing which has happened in that period is that acquired took over Emagic. If they would redesign Logic, it would both take a lot of time and maybe even involve some changes in Apple's OS.

Frankly, I don't give a damn anymore.
Other sequencer makers have managed to majorly improve their products without a truly close relationship to the OS developers and in *way* shorter time.

Either Logic is gradually being developed, or they are working on something more major, like a redesign. And, as I have mentioned in some other thread, I have been told by a person I trust that the Apple team is still working passionately on making the best tool for music creation.

"The best tool for music creation"?
Some people think it's Garageband. Others think of Music Studio, Beat Creator and whatelse.
"The best" doesn't mean anything to me at all anymore.

Apart from it, if they wanted to make it "the best", they should better care about their existing user base and fix some bugs, etc.
Otherwise, they may end up with "the best tool for music creation" but no users at all. I know some folks jumping offship already personally.

There are no signs of Logic (or it's successor, if they're working on one) not being developed - or that this development doesn't happen in Germany. And maybe they are both working on some great improvements *and* had some delay for reasons like hiring new people/replacing some developers etc. I wouldn't know, but I'm 100% sure they are working on something great.

Something "great" - what does that mean to you? Something creating a financial revenue or something that'd be up to whatever professional standards?
If you look at Apples "iSchedule", the results mostly are something purely based on what might create the largest revenue - but they're far from being professional tools (iPad, iPhone, the lousy iTunes-controlled iOS, etc).
Nice for newcomers, absolutely unimportant in any professional environment.

If nothing will be revealed by 2014, I'll be worried too. :-)

I'll be using something else somewhat near to the end of this year already.
Need a new computer anyway and as Apples pricing scenario is anything but attractive, I'll be back on the dark side in case Logic doesn't offer anything new.

Originally Posted by musicl

I'm worried already! 3 years is too long, 4 years and I'm on another DAW.

Same for me. I'm really having enough of a company offering exactly ZERO support (which is proveable) and apparently ZERO development for the program I'm using (which is getting more and more likely). There's just nothing worse.

- Sascha

[thehightenor]

Without doubt things are not like the good old days of Emagic.

When Apple bought Emagic, Editor of SOS Paul White suggested they keep the $30 million in the bank in case they wanted to buy the company back!

Prophetic advise indeed.

I have since drifted to Cubase 6 and the whole experience has been very positive in every aspect.

Steinberg is owned by Yamaha, but I don't get the feeling that when Yamaha are working on a new motor bike Cubase 7 is getting delayed.

However I cannot say the same about Logic X and Apple's post PC device consumer focus.

Still .... I hold out hope Logic X will be the DAW that makes me return to using Logic full time.

tht

[musicl]

Originally Posted by thehightenor

Steinberg is owned by Yamaha, but I don't get the feeling that when Yamaha are working on a new motor bike Cubase 7 is getting delayed.

Still .... I hold out hope Logic X will be the DAW that makes me return to using Logic full time.

tht

+1

couldn't agree more. Apple are known to have one core team they pull people off when developing a project. eg, an OSX release was delayed as that team was set to work on developing iOS. You'd be surprised how small the dev teams are at Apple from what I know...

Whilst Yamaha are making vroom vroom motorbikes and the latest Archery equipment (yep, they make sports equipment) it doesn't affect the Steinberg team.

...And i agree in that i'm looking forward to Logic X...

[undertone]

Originally Posted by thirdsun

I agree - the idea of replicating physical hardware controls on a computer screen seems outdated to me. These skeuomorphic approaches to interface design have a long history with Apple and Audio developers in general though.

I totally agree. But it's not just the GUI design: it's also the parallelism to traditional mixing workflows. These are generic problems in the industry that in principle can evolve and mutate to better, more efficient and more creative workflows but have been maintained to facilitate the transition to ITB work for all the people transitioning from traditional hardware, typically the professionals with the money to spend on high end ITB arsenals.

Originally Posted by thehightenor

Without doubt things are not like the good old days of Emagic... I have since drifted to Cubase 6 and the whole experience has been very positive in every aspect.

I used and loved Emagic products from Notator to Logic 2.5 on the Atari, suffered through the transition to Logic Audio on the PC, and was heartbroken when it was sold to Apple. I just could not afford a PowerPC Apple at the time and Steinberg had a great cross grade offer on Nuendo which I jumped on. What I still miss the most to this day in Nuendo from Logic is the features, workflow and on-screen rendering of the scoring editor. Other than that, I still occaisionally use the soft synths and some of the processing. But I've found Cubendo to offer tons of features that I would totally miss if I was only working with Logic. I got a MBP in 2007 and tried to rekindle my love affair with Logic but what I found is that in every significant way, Logic had not really changed all that much since the last PC version 5.5... The thrill was gone.

Logic 10 will likely be a maintenance release. And unless Logic X makes some significant inroads at changing these archaic music production paradigms, I'll be working with what has become my tried and true for some time to come. Not to say that any of these companies are perfect, but in the larger picture, you try to use the tools that will take you to your goals the fatest. Not everyone has the same goals.

[The Beatsmith]

fair do's on the berling thing

another 'fwiw' - apparently Logic is the second highest grossing app in the app store - after Mountain Lion - so i really doubt it's going anywhere soon

more like a complete rewrite, i'm guessing. let's just hope it's not a watering down.

[gussyg2007]

I'm sure there will be a "clear out the 32-bit cobwebs " update coming soon.. ready for all 64-bit

[phas3d]

Using 9.1.7 with 64 bit plug-ins. No issues.

[NoVi]

Originally Posted by thehightenor

Without doubt things are not like the good old days of Emagic.

When Apple bought Emagic, Editor of SOS Paul White suggested they keep the $30 million in the bank in case they wanted to buy the company back!

Prophetic advise indeed.

I have since drifted to Cubase 6 and the whole experience has been very positive in every aspect.

many outrageous statements recently in this thread and this post particular: what 'good old days' ? You mean the days when you could pay extra for the Logic instruments? When the price for upgrades were higher than buying the whole package nowadays?

There will be no hair on the head of Gehrard Lengeling and the rest of the team thinking about buying out, they serve a market that is bigger than they even could have imagined in the early, Notator days. And financially I'm sure that Apple secured them extremely well.

[phas3d]

Also Logic is more streamlined. You had to go into environment for pretty much anything. Environment is still there, however a lot features are way easier to use.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by phas3d

Also Logic is more streamlined. You had to go into environment for pretty much anything. Environment is still there, however a lot features are way easier to use.

Yeah right...
Try to use an arpeggiator then.

A) You still need to go into the environment for that.
B) The arpeggiator options are abysmal, to put it positively. And it won't even work once Logic is not playing back (try to explain that to whomever...). Add to this the experience of using an arpeggiator in cycle mode.
C) In Cubase, you don't even need to think about how it works because it's just so intuitive, *way* more flexible and what not. That arpeggiator "just works".

What's so streamlined about that?

- Sascha

[KorgAddict]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Yeah right...
Try to use an arpeggiator then.

A) You still need to go into the environment for that.
B) The arpeggiator options are abysmal, to put it positively. And it won't even work once Logic is not playing back (try to explain that to whomever...). Add to this the experience of using an arpeggiator in cycle mode.
C) In Cubase, you don't even need to think about how it works because it's just so intuitive, *way* more flexible and what not. That arpeggiator "just works".

What's so streamlined about that?

- Sascha

They all have their bad sides, man ! Try to see your inserts,sends and level fader at the same time on your laptop screen in Cubase inspector. I use those functions way more often than an arpeggiator... We could go on forever. The best implentation Apple could make is a dedicated arp in all their VIs rather than a plugin arp. It's off by default for backward compatibility and you switch it on when needed.

KA

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Yeah right...
Try to use an arpeggiator then.



- Sascha

Try to do in Cubase what can be done with Logic's environment.

But this is not what this thread is about man.

[gizeh12]

In 2012 the daw world is much much more competitive (Presonus, reaper, Protools etc) and product life-cycles are getting shorter and shorter. Comparing lags between logic 7 & 8 with 9 & 10 is comparing apples and pears.

[arrowood101]

Eh who cares when Logic 10 comes out. Like the past 2 versions, it will have some game ending bug that you will have to wait for them to sort out anyways.

[sbackdoor]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Yeah right...
Try to use an arpeggiator then.

A) You still need to go into the environment for that.
B) The arpeggiator options are abysmal, to put it positively. And it won't even work once Logic is not playing back (try to explain that to whomever...). Add to this the experience of using an arpeggiator in cycle mode.
C) In Cubase, you don't even need to think about how it works because it's just so intuitive, *way* more flexible and what not. That arpeggiator "just works".

What's so streamlined about that?

- Sascha

I thought you had stopped hijacking every Logic thread in existence for your rants. Screw Cubase. It stopped being cool around 1994. This is about Logic.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by sbackdoor

I thought you had stopped hijacking every Logic thread in existence for your rants.

Are you on some sort of medication or so?
Show me the Logic threads I hijacked during, say, the last year.

- Sascha

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Are you on some sort of medication or so?
Show me the Logic threads I hijacked during, say, the last year.

- Sascha

[Warren]

Wow, great ideas, many I agree with. Ive used it since the PC days and with the new speed and ram specs of current computers, maybe an SSD to start up... Super fast, no hiccups, its good times now... I love my Autoload! Go Logic!

[sbackdoor]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Are you on some sort of medication or so?
Show me the Logic threads I hijacked during, say, the last year.

- Sascha

That's indeed why I thought you had stopped doing that, apparently you're at it again.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by sbackdoor

That's indeed why I thought you had stopped doing that, apparently you're at it again.

No, I'm not. What makes you think I am?
I'm in this thread since ages.

Really, you should stop taking funny things. They don't do a good job.

- Sascha

[sbackdoor]

Depends on what you take.

Anyway, odd that I have to explain myself, but when you look at the thread title it doesn't say "what is it you don't like about Logic".
And since it doesn't say "let's bash Sascha" either I apologize for almost derailing the thread myself.
Cheerio.

[Roger Starr]

I just want 10 or X to be released. I'm really curious what that will bring us. Since the release of 9, years, years ago, what do you wants has been going on for I don't know how many threads. Really...

Oh yeah, I really think this Sascha guy makes comments that makes sense. He knows about the stuff. It would be better to reply on content rather then just bashing on someone. Everybody makes a comparison with another DAW so now and then in any thread, so what? It is more then fair to see what competitors does and wanting to have something similar or better in your favorite DAW. Thumbs up for guys like Sascha!

RGH