Best DSP Fire wire Interface???? Metric halo or Apogee??

[Undiscovered]

Ok I know this topic has been discussed before.
I read all those threads. Most are from 2007.
Anyway now we are approaching 2010. What interface is currently the best.
I will be running Logic pro 9 on a new I7 Imac.
I really want a interface with great AD DA converters, DSP and fire wire (because Imac does not have PCI inputs) I will be daisy chaining the fire wire interface with an external hard drive, or buying a external fire wire hub.

I want DSP so I can give my performers a good headphone mix of reverb when they sing and some distortion and amp effects for when they play guitar in real time.
I love the idea of real time effects so I can monitor wet and record dry into logic with no latency.
I don't really care as much about preamp quality on the interface because I have an out board Vintech x73i and Distressor EL8X for my vocal chain.
I really want very good AD DA converters though.

I know Apogee does not have a DSP chip in there devices but I know they have high quality converters.

I know that Metric halo has a 2d Xpanded card in some devices and I know they have good converters.

I love the routing options on both Apogee and Metric halo even though I was a little bummed to see that the Metric halos only comes with 1 headphone amp. I would prefer 2 headphone out puts with different cue mixes. 1 for me and 1 for the performer when recording.

Other than that I think the Metric halo could be the one. I just don't know which model. The ULN-2 DSP or 2882 DSP???
I will mostly only record 2 inputs at a time, and one input would be my Vintech distressor chain.

Is the apogee ensemble worth it over the Metric halo because of superior converters even though it lacks the Dsp, or is the Metric halo just as good converter wise and has the added convenience of DSP.

Please enlighten me with your opinions based on my situation.

Thank you in advance.

[Nutkin]

I have recently replaced an Apogee Duet (more or less the same sound as the Ensemble I believe, just fewer channels) with a MH ULN-2 (2d) (for the xtra digital I/O and the additional analog out pair, and also the dsp) and am absolutely delighted. I think the sound of the converters is clearly superior on the MH over the Duet (which I guess it should be given the price difference) and the drivers seem more stable on my Mac too. The DSP is wonderful and the included reverb (Haloverb) sounds very good indeed to my ears. I now am trying to scrape up enough money to buy the +dsp license.

Rob

[macyu]

I think you'll be happy with a ULN-2 with +DSP. I have the 2882 2d Expanded+DSP, and I'm using its DSP mixer running effects to make cue mixes as you mention. It's nice being able to not only add reverb, but EQ the sound to make it easier on vocalists. You can even dial in some guitar amp simulation.

The only other non-digital mixer products that offer DSP based effects are the Focurite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, MOTU 828mkIII and Yamaha MR816 - none of them has the same flexibility. I like being able to forget about the DAW buffer latancy, and still offer lots of flexibility for the cue-mix.

As for headphone outs, the analog outs running at high power seems to have enough headroom to drive headphones. That's what I do, and nobody's complaining.

Hope that helps!

[Allen Rowand]

A couple things to think about:

Since the Apogee interfaces have no onboard dsp, they can't give you near zero latency monitoring, and no processing in the monitors like our interfaces.

I would say that the conversion quality is on par between the 2882/ULN-2 and Ensemble. Only your ears can decide which you like the sound of more.

As macyu said, you can run headphones from the analog outputs of our interfaces. You need to buy or make a 2xTS to TRS jack cable for true stereo phones.

All new MH interfaces come with the 2d card. The +dsp license (which adds more dsp plugs) is optional on the 2882 & ULN-2.

Good luck,
Allen

[nyne]

Allen, a question for u regarding metric Halo interfaces.

How cool r ur interfaces with a FW hard drive daisy chained ? Any issues, do u recommend ? Considering an iMac so this is a concern.

[Oortjes]

Originally Posted by Allen Rowand

A couple things to think about:

Since the Apogee interfaces have no onboard dsp, they can't give you near zero latency monitoring, and no processing in the monitors like our interfaces.

I would say that the conversion quality is on par between the 2882/ULN-2 and Ensemble. Only your ears can decide which you like the sound of more.

As macyu said, you can run headphones from the analog outputs of our interfaces. You need to buy or make a 2xTS to TRS jack cable for true stereo phones.

All new MH interfaces come with the 2d card. The +dsp license (which adds more dsp plugs) is optional on the 2882 & ULN-2.

Good luck,
Allen

A quick correction here. The Ensemble does have "near zero latency monitoring". The low latency mixing of Ensemble is done within the unit.

When it comes to reverberation and other types of delay based effects, keep in mind that the latency of FireWire is not an issue at all. So you can still use your favorite plug-in or standard Logic effect and add that to the low latency mix.

Best regards,

[Allen Rowand]

Originally Posted by Oortjes

A quick correction here. The Ensemble does have "near zero latency monitoring". The low latency mixing of Ensemble is done within the unit.

I apologize; there are indeed two 20x2 low latency mixers available in the Ensemble, while Metric Halo interfaces offer seven or eight (depending on dsp usage) configurable mixers with anywhere from mono to 7.1 channels. I can't find any info on your mixer latency- could you share that?

When it comes to reverberation and other types of delay based effects, keep in mind that the latency of FireWire is not an issue at all. So you can still use your favorite plug-in or standard Logic effect and add that to the low latency mix.

But this would be a problem for eq or compression, which can be done within the dsp in Metric Halo interfaces along with the rest of our 2d and optional +dsp plug ins.

[Undiscovered]

Not to add fuel to the fire.
I just seen a new interface that might also be worth mentioning.
The RME fireface 800.
How is the quality in converters compared to the other 2?
I like the fireface because of the fire wire 800 connections.
So I can daisy chain my glyph 050Q to the fire face 800 using the fire wire 800, therefore increasing band width compared to fire wire 400.

Is there really an advantage using fire wire 800 over 400 for audio recording mixing?

I am going to be using the new Imac i7 which only has one firewire 800 which I can use an adapter to make 400 if I want.
My Glyph hard drive has both fire wire 400 and 800 inputs.

The Rme fire face also has DSp on board.
The Metric halo uln 2 dsp and Rme fire face 800 are the same price, so which one would be better for my set up?

[nyne]

RME Fireface : More Ins n Out, Great Conversion, Solid Drivers, Ok Pre's.
Metric Halo ULN-2: Less In Outs, Great Conversion, Solid Drivers, GREAT Pre's, DSP Plug-ins.

Ensemble, Fireface, MH Labs are the top 3 FW interfaces, depending on ur needs, any of these will be great.

My choice would be the Metric Halo because of the pres and DSP.

[Undiscovered]

I just read that the Rme Fireface 800 does not have Dsp per say but it has a total mix program which it seems it takes stress off your cpu and helps achieve lower latency with logic plugs while recording.
Is that correct?

Anyway, I am looking to run these devices in Logic pro 9 in Snow leopard, so are these devices drivers updated to run Snow leopard and Logic pro 9?

Also again, I will be daisy chaining the device to a hard drive or is it better to buy a fire wire hub to connect to the one fire wire 800 input on the new Imac i7.

Thanks again,

[nyne]

I have never experienced myself, but i have read posts here which suggest that a FW Hub is a better option.

[Undiscovered]

Ok so I norrowed it down to Metric halo uln2 2d and RME fireface 800.

I will be using the new Imac i7 which comes with only one fire wire 800 so I will daisy chain the Metric halo (firewire 400) with a firewire 800/400 adapter into my external hard drive (firewire 800/400) then into the Imac only using fire wire 400 band width.

or daisy chain the Rme Fireface 800 into the Glyph 050q using the fire wire 800 on both to connect to the Imac in full fire wire 800 band width.

Again, I am going to be plugging my external pre and compressor in one channel and I need just one more channel to record. So I only will need to record 2 devices at a time. So 2 pres will suit me well.
I really want good conversion and low latency.

I really like the Dsp the Metric halo comes with but I dislike that its only firewire 400.

I like that the Rme Fireface has firewire 800 but I dislike that it does not have dsp on board but it does have total mix, which does have some sort of lower latency with daw plugs.

So what is better having a faster band width with fire wire 800 on the Rme fireface 800 or having real dsp built in like the metric halo.

I wish the metric halo was fire wire 800. hmmmmmm.

[mh_bj]

A couple of Factual points:

1) If you connect iMac <-> FW800 HD <-> Mobile I/O using a FW800 cable to the HD, the computer will communicate with the dive at FW800; it does NOT slow the entire bus down to FW400. Communications with the MIO will be at FW400, but that is not an issue, especially for one box.

2) RME's TotalMix does not do anything to reduce the latency when processing with plugins on the host. If you need processing, you will incur the host latency if you use the FireFace 800.

Since you can run plugins on the hardware on the MIO, you do not incur any additional latency from processing when you are using the MIO plugins.

FW800 has no impact on the audio latency.

Hope this helps.

[bakerman]

I have the 2882 (with DSP) and Apogee AD 16-X. For mixes ITB that I want instant recalls I've been using the MH 2882 and am really impressed with the sounds and power - one of my fave plug-in compressors is on their channel strip.

I performed a test this week and recorded the identical mix back through the Apogees. The difference to me... the Apogees sound smoother overall, flatter frequency response but MH was still amazing and clear.

Question I have and kinda off topic...what's best way to get an additional 8 ADAT ins/outs and still use MH?

[nigel saunders]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I have the 2882 (with DSP) and Apogee AD 16-X. For mixes ITB that I want instant recalls I've been using the MH 2882 and am really impressed with the sounds and power - one of my fave plug-in compressors is on their channel strip.

I performed a test this week and recorded the identical mix back through the Apogees. The difference to me... the Apogees sound smoother overall, flatter frequency response but MH was still amazing and clear.

I have recently gone from apogee rosetta to metric halo 2882 and uln 8.

The rosetta converters have a nice euphonic sound, the metric halo more clarity to my ears.
Both are good.
The clincher for me is the dsp, plugs and mio mixer. really great combination

[Undiscovered]

Happy Thanksgiving every one.
I have realized that the metric halo Ul-2 might be the one.

So here are some questions I would like answered because I might be getting it tommorrow on black friday if the price is right.

Ok...

1) How would I connect my Vintech x73i and Distressor to the input of the Metric halo uln-2 so I can bypass the pre and go into the Converters.

2)When using a external pre will I still be able to use the 2D card for DSP monitering?

3)What effects come with the standard 2d card? (not the +dsp licensing)
I really want a reverb and amp simulator does that come standard on the 2D card?

4)I some times use autotune to sing through. How would I set up the Metric halo so I can sing through the auto tune in very low latency?

5) I know Metric halo has a AU plugin called channel strip. Does that come with the ULN-2? or can we get a discount on it if we are Metric halo interface owners.

6) Also I have a Euphonix Mc control which I am aware it works with the MIO console. What are your experiences with this set up and how well does it control it.

7) What does the +dsp add? And how much extra is it?

8) So you recomend connecting my firewire 800 hard drive first into the Imac i7 firewire 800 input then daisy chain the Metric halo uln-2 (fw 400) or should I get the 400/800 adapter and connect the Glyph hard drive at 400 into the Metric halo at (FW 400) then using the adapter into the Imac i7?



Thank you in advance and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Allen Rowand]

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

Happy Thanksgiving every one.
I have realized that the metric halo Ul-2 might be the one.

So here are some questions I would like answered because I might be getting it tommorrow on black friday if the price is right.

Ok...

1) How would I connect my Vintech x73i and Distressor to the input of the Metric halo uln-2 so I can bypass the pre and go into the Converters.

2)When using a external pre will I still be able to use the 2D card for DSP monitering?

3)What effects come with the standard 2d card? (not the +dsp licensing)
I really want a reverb and amp simulator does that come standard on the 2D card?

4)I some times use autotune to sing through. How would I set up the Metric halo so I can sing through the auto tune in very low latency?

5) I know Metric halo has a AU plugin called channel strip. Does that come with the ULN-2? or can we get a discount on it if we are Metric halo interface owners.

6) Also I have a Euphonix Mc control which I am aware it works with the MIO console. What are your experiences with this set up and how well does it control it.

7) What does the +dsp add? And how much extra is it?

8) So you recomend connecting my firewire 800 hard drive first into the Imac i7 firewire 800 input then daisy chain the Metric halo uln-2 (fw 400) or should I get the 400/800 adapter and connect the Glyph hard drive at 400 into the Metric halo at (FW 400) then using the adapter into the Imac i7?



Thank you in advance and Happy Thanksgiving.

1) Use the insert return.
2) Yes.
3) The full list is on the ULN-2 page of our site; go to the "+dsp" page in the right menubar. Reverb yes, amp sims no.
4) If it runs as a plug in, there will be latency. See our v5 tutorials for info on how to route between the computer and MIOConsole.
5) No and not at this time. 2d ships with MIOStrip.
6) I don't have one and have used it very little, so I'll leave this to others.
7) +dsp adds over a hundred plug ins, the ability to make your own plug ins, prebuilt effects and amp/cabinet simulators. Full details are on the +dsp page. It costs $699.
8) If you are using a FW800 drive, connect it to the iMac with an 800 to 800 cable and the ULN-2 to the drive with a 400 to 800 cable.

[bakerman]

Hi Allen, whats best way to use all 16 ADAT outs for use with my Apogees? Would the ULN-2 be the solution?

[Undiscovered]

Hey thank you so much for the quick reply.
I am planning on getting the ULN-2 tommorrow.
I am very excited.
I am a little bummed that it will cost me 700 dollars to upgrade to +dsp when all I really "need" is the amp modeling.
Can I please buy the amp modeling separately?
$700 is a lot if I am only going to be "needing" the amp sims.

Anyway, my plan is to connect the ULN-2(400 to 800 adapter) into my glyph 050q hard drives firewire 800 slot then
plug the glyph hard drive into the Imac going Firewire 800 to the Imac's firewire 800.

(The glyph 050q has 2 firewire 800 inputs, so I will use both in this process to daisy chain.)

And I understand from the Allen R. post above, that this will have my Glyph hard drive running at Fire wire 800 bandwidth and my Metric halo Uln-2 running at fire wire 400 bandwidth.

So this would be the best way to run the system to its highest potential given that the Imac i7 only has one fire wire 800 input.

[nyne]

Just one last question on this thread.......and i know this can be found on other posts as well.

ULN-2 Pres vs Ensemble Pres : Opinions please.

[monobeat]

i've been using a combination a uln-2 and a 2882 aggregated in logic for about 6 months now and am incredibly pleased with the sound quality, the dsp no latency mixer, stability and even the quality of the mic pres (uln-2). i don't have the extra software license as i really don't need it.

i have produced a number of film and tv scores as well as ads and a the odd artist, since switching to mh products, and it has been a joy. i find it particularly liberating to be able to use the interfaces both on my studio mac as well as my macbook pro.. just by switching cables.

i'm a fan.

[The MPCist]

Apogee Ensemble works best with Logic in my opinion. Latency isn't an issue and since Apple and Apogee work hand in hand, the drivers work great.

[nigel saunders]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Apogee Ensemble works best with Logic in my opinion. Latency isn't an issue and since Apple and Apogee work hand in hand, the drivers work great.

Hi
Thats pretty unambigous
Can you explain how you made that decision?

[monobeat]

anyone out there have the +dsp package? can the plugs be accessed directly in logic? or only in the mh mixer?

thx, w

[bakerman]

only thru the mixer. An instance of 'Console Connect' in Logic saves the dsp mixer settings so when the session loads, the mixer is opened.

[Undiscovered]

Hey all I finally purchased my ULN-2D expanded and I have a few questions for Metric halo reps.

1) I am currently plugging the device using the xlr power adapter to my wall outlet.
There was no 9v adapter in the box only the XLR power adapter. Was there supposed to be both adapters?
2) When I plug the device into the power using the xlr and firewire to the computer. I noticed there is no on/off switch on the uln-2. The lights on the ULN-2 are always on even when I power off the computer. Is this normal? and Is it harmful to leave the uln-2 on all the time?
3) I watched all the videos on your site and they are very helpful, but I have a question about sending a track in logic to the unln-2 to add some of the MIO channel strip for some processing and back into logic.
From what I understand I change the input settings on the top of the strip from analog 1 to daw 1 and now I am controlling the first track in my logic project?
When I do this, it seems like I am affecting the entire master bus and not just that one track.
Is there a specific video or written tutorial that can teach me how to transfer individual logic tracks to uln-2 for processing and back into logic processing in real time,
4) How many daw tracks can be proccessed in the ULN-2 at the same time?

Sorry for all the questions. I am very excited and can't wait to start working on more music.

Also for all others wondering, I got the Uln-2 and the Euphonix Mc control to work together and wow! great integration and I just scratched the surface.

[mh_bj]

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

Hey all I finally purchased my ULN-2D expanded and I have a few questions for Metric halo reps.

Congratulations, and welcome to the family!

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

1) I am currently plugging the device using the xlr power adapter to my wall outlet.
There was no 9v adapter in the box only the XLR power adapter. Was there supposed to be both adapters?

No. The ULN-2 just comes with the XLR (4-pin) power supply.

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

2) When I plug the device into the power using the xlr and firewire to the computer. I noticed there is no on/off switch on the uln-2. The lights on the ULN-2 are always on even when I power off the computer. Is this normal? and Is it harmful to leave the uln-2 on all the time?

This is normal, and not harmful. If you want to turn it off, you'll have to put the power supply on a switched circuit, like a switched power strip.

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

3) I watched all the videos on your site and they are very helpful, but I have a question about sending a track in logic to the unln-2 to add some of the MIO channel strip for some processing and back into logic.
From what I understand I change the input settings on the top of the strip from analog 1 to daw 1 and now I am controlling the first track in my logic project?
When I do this, it seems like I am affecting the entire master bus and not just that one track.
Is there a specific video or written tutorial that can teach me how to transfer individual logic tracks to uln-2 for processing and back into logic processing in real time,

Right now you are mixing in Logic and sending the entire mix to the MIO. You need to use the Logic I/O plug or direct route your tracks. I think there is a video about this, but I will let Allen fill you in as he is more up to date as to what assets address the issue you want help with.

Originally Posted by Undiscovered

4) How many daw tracks can be proccessed in the ULN-2 at the same time?

18

Best regards,

B.J. Buchalter
Metric Halo

[Allen Rowand]

Congrats! Let's see what I can help you with:

1) If you're talking about the "jumpstart" for bus powering, we don't sell them. There's info in the FAQ on our website about how to build one. It's not necessary if you use the power supply.
2) That's normal. You can leave it on all the time, or unplug the power supply. We have several at the office that have never been turned off. If you're concerned about energy usage, I'd suggest plugging into a power strip; even with the PSU unplugged from the ULN-2, it is still using power.
3) I'm not sure of what you're describing. I've attached a console file that will take 18 channels from Logic, and returns each channel over Firewire to the computer. I'll try and work on more ULN-2 templates for future releases.
4) You get 18 channels to/from the computer.

Good luck,
Allen

[alohachris]

Aloha,

I'd go with the Ensemble over the MH and certainly over the RME 800. It's fully integrated into Mac hardware and software. It's a GREAT sounding unit that is almost universally praised. If the sound quality is the same, then I suggest that you go with the integrated unit/signal chain everytime to avoid compatibility issues down the road. The new iMac i7, Logic 9 and Apogee Ensemble together are as good as it gets for home recording, IMO.

alohachris

[Phigwalla]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha,
I'd go with the Ensemble over the MH and certainly over the RME 800. It's fully integrated into Mac hardware and software. It's a GREAT sounding unit that is almost universally praised. If the sound quality is the same, then I suggest that you go with the integrated unit/signal chain everytime to avoid compatibility issues down the road.
alohachris

Sorry, I don't post much and whenever I do it seems to be in praise of Metric Halo. So here I go again...

Metric Halo has been supporting and improving the 2882 for the past 8 years (or so). Their commitment to "future-proof" is well proven at this point. Metric Halo only supports their devices on Apple Hardware under the Mac OS. The hardware and software fully integrates with the platform. The quality of the +DSP plugs is outstanding as well... HaloVerb, MioStrip and Character should not be taken lightly. The build quality of the MH hardware is top-notch and tank-like. I'm sure the Ensemble is a fantastic interface, but I don't think it can match up in terms of versatility and robustness when compared to the MH hardware.

I started with a 2882 and ULN2 +DSP and then upgraded both units to 2D. This summer I purchased a ULN-8 at a very nice discount thanks to Metric Halo's outstanding appreciation for its users. I also know that BJ and the crew at Metric Halo will continue to improve all three boxes, I can't wait to see what the future brings us.

/unabashed praise for Metric Halo