sync'ing 2 laptops using ableton - it shouldn't be this hard!!

[Freq Farm]

I'm getting to the sobbing softly and banging my head on the desk point; I've spent days trying to get my PC to Sync with a Mac Laptop.

We live in the days of lazer beams and jet-packs (The Martin Jetpack - Martin Aircraft Company || The Martin Jetpack) but I can't seem to get a decent sync using midi! what is going on here??

We need to sync a few machines together for our live show, but for the moment let's stick to the 1st problem, getting 2 laptops to hold a decent sync.

Unfortuntately Ableton (8.05) is what we are using for our main sequencer in the live show so we are having nightmares. We really need to keep Ableton because it lets us do a mix of DJ set and live show and is really flexible in a live performance.
So the midi sync on Ableton just doesn't work, using MidiOx to generate a clock and midiYoke to loop it back into Ableton the BPM is drifiting up and down constantly by as much as 0.7 bpm and is even worse by the time it gets over to the Mac.
Using Cubase as a wrapper is out of the question because we lose midi control in Ableton.

Can anyone make any suggestions as what to do to move forward with this one?

A) is it possible to get a decent sync with 2 machines running Ableton Live

B) Is there anything else out there that will let me launch clips in a non-linear format the same way ableton does? A VST plugin that does that would probably save the day.


Your help and suggestions are greatly appreciated on this one chaps...

[Timur Born]

Problem: Ableton Live can be a perfectly stable Midi Clock Sync Master, unfortunately it cannot be a stable Midi Clock Sync Slave.

Ableton keeps denying the latter and tell their customers that this is only a "cosmetic" issue (meaning only the visual BPM counter is moving while the Clock should be stable). But that is not true as can be seen in these screenshots (showing Kontakt 3 plugin running as Slave to the same Master clock on the same computer via Kore 2 and via Live 7):



It should be noted that the higher the BPM the more a Midi clock signal will vary in its BPM value, but the relative percentage should still be much lower than happening with Live.

Workaround: There are two possible workarounds.

1. Use Midi Time Code instead of Clock Sync. Live can theoretically sync to Time Code sample-accurately (albeit Ableton Support denies that this is even possible I had two instances cancel/null/invert each other).

The drawback of this solution is that you have to manually set the tempo on the slaves. So if you are playing a set with varrying tempi you have to watch out not to forget that.

2. Rewire Live as a slave to a Midi Sync stable master. That way the Rewire master will do the Midi sync part and control Live's tempo accordingly.

Drawback of this solution is that Live does not allow you to use external plugins while being a Rewire slave (I think only Reaper allows that).

Solution: Make Ableton fix their Midi Clock implementation.

[Timur Born]

Concerning B: Sonar 8.5 offers "Matrix View" which in concept is at least similiar to Ableton Live.

Apart from that there isn't much of a competition to Live's Session view. too bad...

[Freq Farm]

Hi Timur,

Interesting; how does one go about syncing ableton to a midi time code?

Using Rewire is not a option cause not only do you lose VSTs but also any midi controller support as well....

Ableton need to up their game, Live is now more expensive than Logic or Cubase and the midi and audio quality are still way below Cubase/Logic

[Timur Born]

In Live's Midi Preferences click on the small arrow left of your input port. That will reveal advanced settings and allow you to switch to Midi Time Code.

Using Rewire is not a option cause not only do you lose VSTs but also any midi controller support as well....

I just did a quick test with Logic as Rewire Master and Live as Slave and everything Midi is still usable in Live. I tested a PadKontrol and a Remote SL and could send both Midi Notes and CC plus use the Remote SL as control surface.

[Freq Farm]

cheers for the tip - I never clicked those arrows before, in fact I never even noticed them!

I just did a quick test with Logic as Rewire Master and Live as Slave and everything Midi is still usable in Live. I tested a PadKontrol and a Remote SL and could send both Midi Notes and CC plus use the Remote SL as control surface.

mmmm, I hope that's not Logic/Mac specific - I'll give it another try tonight and see if I can hold on to midi control while using Cubase as the master.

[bcslaam]

We do it by using the clock in a hardware unit as the common master. A novation SL 36note keyboard.

Setting the device to send midi down one dedicated usb port to its host and also out a physical midi out for me to slave to.

My program is Forte not Live but the fact that my collegue is syncing to device in a "usable" way with Live pc v8.04 (certainly not perfect) proves it can be done. We tried many other combos, this gave the best results.

Tempo is controlled by an assigned knob on the SL. It has on 1bpm increments tho which is a PITA.

[Freq Farm]

i can get a usable lock using MTC, using the Midi Clock is not even an option due to how much it sucks

it's still not a great solution as it's not sample accurate and takes a fair amount of config to get working, but I'm grateful for a solution that works - thanks again Timur!

[Timur Born]

What about the Rewire option? Did you try it with Cubase and your plugins?

[valis]

I have a question, are you trying to sync two people performing at the same time? Or one person using two laptops?

[Freq Farm]

What about the Rewire option? Did you try it with Cubase and your plugins?

when I tried the rewire option I had no Midi Controller support in ableton - I'll try again with a later release of cubase probably next week when I've got more time after the weekend's gig...

I really really need to find a rock-solid setup before we go on tour next year, but luckily I have a couple of months to finish everything for that...

[Freq Farm]

I have a question, are you trying to sync two people performing at the same time? Or one person using two laptops?

For the moment it's 2 people using 2 laptops:
1 Mac running ableton and Maschine connected as a controller
1 PC running ableton and my dB Live custom built controller
plus we have a microkorg XL

this is our DJ style setup, mainly cause we can't physically get anything more into a DJ box, the full show will have in addition to the above:
1 x video server
1 x audio server for all the really heavy processing work like real-time VST processing and synths
1 x lighting controller to run the intellegent moving heads and terror strobes

[Freq Farm]

so long story short after hours and hours of ****ing around and testing every which way, I have given up trying to get Ableton to sync, it just won't do it consistantly, and I have zero faith in Ableton to sync in a live situation with a thousand people in a club (never forget the rule, the more people you are showing something new to the more likely it will go bang).

So wew are doing it the old-fashioned way, set both laptops to the same BPM and then nudge one of the laptops till they are both sync'ed.

[PELicanWord]

Originally Posted by Freq Farm

so long story short after hours and hours of ****ing around and testing every which way, I have given up trying to get Ableton to sync, it just won't do it consistantly, and I have zero faith in Ableton to sync in a live situation with a thousand people in a club (never forget the rule, the more people you are showing something new to the more likely it will go bang).

So wew are doing it the old-fashioned way, set both laptops to the same BPM and then nudge one of the laptops till they are both sync'ed.

This is really dissappointing. I would expect more from Ableton, seeing as they're supposed to have the best software for live performance.

[dotpim]

Well, I finally got this working. Thanks a lot for all the posts here, would never have figured it out without it.

1. Introduction

I always really wanted to be able to have two PC's running Ableton Live in perfect sync, and never found a good tutorial or actually working and stable solution.
By combining knowledge from a lot of posts on a lot of forums and experiencing lots of frustration doing so, I finally got it. In this post I will try to share how
to set this up.

If you want to be able to change bpm while you are playing, this tutorial is not for you.



2. Required software

Windows XP - Because the version of MIDIoverLANPlus I used only runs on XP, newer versions of this software should run without problems on newer Windows versions and even on mac.

Ableton Live - Tested and working on versions 7 and 8.

Musiclab MIDIoverLANPlus 1.1.112 - This tool is used to transfer the midi signal over the network, and provide a local virtual midi port for the computer running the clock.
Newer versions work as well, but setting them up is a bit different but. It's a shame I couldn't find a free solution instead of Musiclabs software. They have fully functional 30 day trials though.
The freeware ethernetmidi tool does not work, even though it gets mentioned a lot in threads about midisyncing over lan.

MIDI-OX - This tool is used to send a midi-timecode (mtc) signal to both computers. Freely available at: MIDI-OX Download Page


3. Configuring MIDIoverLANPlus

Install this software on both computers, reboot them both. Then start the configuration utility from the windows control panel. One computer will send the midi signal (pc1) and one will be receiving a midi signal (pc2).
On pc1, setup at least one local pipe (this is used to send the mtc from MIDI-OX to Live) and at least one MIDI to LAN port. You can leave the buffer and port settings at defaults.
On pc2, setup at least one MIDI from LAN port. Make sure you use the same port as on pc1.
Apply the settings and close the configuration utility.



4. Configuring MIDI-OX

Install this software on pc1 only. Via Options>MIDI devices add the needed MIDI outputs. I used LAN-Out 00 and Pipe-Out 00.



5. Configuring Ableton Live

Make sure the MIDIoverLANPlus configuration utility is running before Live is started, otherwise Live may not recognize the ports you need to configure. This took me forever to find out.
Open the midi settings via Options>Preferences>MIDI Sync.
On pc1, enable sync for Pipe-In 0, track and remote functions should be disabled.
On pc2, enable sync for LAN-In 00, track and remote functions should be disabled.
On both computers set sync type to MIDI Timecode, set MTC Frame Rate at 30 fps. MIDI Clock Sync Delay should be on 0 ms for now, this will be adjusted later.
Close Ableton Live on both computers.



6. Configuring local network

I had the best results using a crossover lan cable between both computers. This provides you with <1 ms network latency. Setup manual IP's on both pc's, for example 192.168.100.100 and 192.168.100.101, subnetmask 255.255.255.0
Being connected to a wireless network at the same time resulted in MIDIoverLANPlus not functioning anymore, so just turn it off.
Firewalls should be disabled (since you are working on a local network it problably won't hurt you), or at least make exceptions on both computers for the port MIDIoverLANPlus needs.



7. Actual usage instructions

After setting up the things mentioned above, reboot both computers to be sure MIDIoverLANPlus driver is loaded correctly with the new settings (yes, I do like to reboot when doing things like this).
Now, on pc1 one start the MIDIoverLANPlus configuration utility, and just leave it open. Also start MIDI-OX.
On pc2 also start the MIDIoverLANPlus configuration utility.
In MIDI-OX open View/Generate MIDI Time Code, set it at 30 fps with accuracy set to 5 ms. Start the clock before starting Live.
Open Live on both computers now. Click the EXT button in the upper left corner on both computers. You should now be receiving a time code signal.
This signal runs at fixed bpm, the trick to get it working at your desired bpm value is having the clock running before starting Ableton Live, then enable external sync on both computers (as mentioned above).
Now stop the clock in MIDI-OX, but leave the program open. Set bpm at the right value on both computers and start the clock in MIDI-OX again. Both computers should now be receiving time code and play at the correct bpm.
Any mixer can be used to combine the audio signals from pc1 and pc2, I used a third computer for it. Find a solution that works for you.
It's time to get things running in sync now. This involves a bit of playing with latency values. First I made sure that the various latency related settings for the sound cards on pc1 and pc2 were set identical.
On pc2, leave the MIDI Clock Sync Delay at 0 ms. Get a metronome playing on both computers. Adjust MIDI Clock Sync Delay on pc1 until both metronomes are playing in sync, for me 24,5 ms works perfect.

That's it. I tested this on multiple setups and it just works. Here's a 4 hour proof of concept mix, stayed in sync until the end: .pim - .Pim vs Niklas Vaggh @ Club Streetway NYE - SoundCloud

[Timur Born]

Glad you got it working now!

One should keep the following things in mind:

MIDI-OX is copyrighted freeware, for non-commercial use. Commercial Licenses are available.

Plus:

On pc2, leave the MIDI Clock Sync Delay at 0 ms. Get a metronome playing on both computers. Adjust MIDI Clock Sync Delay on pc1 until both metronomes are playing in sync, for me 24,5 ms works perfect.

My experience is that "MIDI Clock Sync Delay" has to be changed whenever you change the tempo. As far as I remember: the higher the tempo/bpm the lower you have to set the delay (may be other way around, it's been long since I tested this).

I posted a detailed thread about that at the Ableton forum, but since I deleted my account you cannot search for posts of my name anymore eventhough they are still there. Maybe that was fixed with a later version (8), but you should check for yourself.

[dotpim]

My experience is that "MIDI Clock Sync Delay" has to be changed whenever you change the tempo. As far as I remember: the higher the tempo/bpm the lower you have to set the delay (may be other way around, it's been long since I tested this).

True. It seems i have to slightly adjust the latency on pc1 every time I set it up. Could be correct that it is related to bpm.

[Timur Born]

To make it more complicated there is another factor: Midi clip loops may shift their start time by upto to over 100 samples. When it happens it happens with every restart of a loop and some other circumstances (I think tempo change was one of them).

The number of samples that timing is shifted varies with every loop and is semi-random. Semi because the it jumps between several repeating sample-values that randomly change between each other.

That means that after the first loop playthrough it may happen that Midi loops on PC 1 are not in sync with Midi loops on PC 2 anymore regardless of syncing. You have to check that yourself on your setup (playback the same Midi clip on both synced PCs, route their output to a digital mixer and invert the phase of one PC's output).

I posted lots of detail about it on the Ableton forum over a year ago. Could be hard to find though.

[dotpim]

To make it more complicated there is another factor: Midi clip loops may shift their start time by upto to over 100 samples. When it happens it happens with every restart of a loop and some other circumstances (I think tempo change was one of them).

You could be right, but I don't know. Didn't try syncing midi loops as I only use audio clips for dj'ing. Anyway, this method works perfect for me when working with audio clips.

[Timur Born]

Dotpim, I don't kow if you are the writer of the DJ House Container blog article? (DJ House Container | The Perfect MIDI Sync)

But since that article uses knowledge I'm trying to spread for well over a year I feel like I should add some more of my long forgotten web wisdom.

Originally Posted by DJ House Container

A re-sync has to be done manual. But applications like Ableton Live will simply wait for a new start signal to be triggered. When the MIDI Beat Clock master is Ableton Live, there is no way to retrigger the start signal without interrupting audio playback.

In fact there *is* a way to retrigger the signal without noticeable interruption:

Originally Posted by Crash aka Timur in October 2008 on Ableton Forum

Here is a little trick to get Live back into Sync with another Sequencer/Live instance:

Live sends absolute "Song Position" informations out over Midi whenever you hit Play and whenever you change the "Arrangement Position" field manually.

That means whenever you notice Live and another Sequencer/Live running out of Sync you can try to get them back by sending an absolute Song Position to the slaved Sequencer/Live. The best way to do that would be to (stop the song and) hit Play. But sometimes you want to keep your set running without interruption, how can that be done?


1. Set Quantisation to 1/32 (alternatively to Off, but the result may be slightly different).

2. Click on the "1/16th" part of the Arrangement Position field to activate it.

3. Hit and release "Cursor Up" on your keyboard quickly, this will "fast forward" your set by 1/32th max.


Depending on how well timed you hit the key you may not audibly hear any jump/interruption at all. I advice to wait until shortly before the end of a full beat/loop cycle, because it sounds more natural then.

Eventhough a single hit of the key/ff will send a Song Position out it may be necessary to do it more than once in order to get badly out of Sync instances back to Sync. The best way would still be to stop the playback and restart. The latter is especially wise during breaks in between songs if you can afford some seconds of silence.

[dotpim]

Dotpim, I don't kow if you are the writer of the DJ House Container blog article? (DJ House Container | The Perfect MIDI Sync)

Thanks for the link, Wac.NetworkMIDI sounds like a good and free replacement for MIDIOverLANPlus. I'm going to try out if it works just as stable, will post results.
And I can confirm that getting back in sync the way you describe very much works. Although i didn't actually need it since I started syncing using mtc instead of midi clock.