What is "Rock Solid" stability anyway?

[zzfdvz@mac.com]

I am in the process of revamping my studio and I've decided I want to move to Sonar as it does everything I need. That is not the issue here however.

I have a computer that I built myself and with the Sonar demo (and virtually every other daw I've tried), I'm experiencing a crash or sevre hangup once or twice per 8-10 hour day of work. While I find this to be unacceptable, I wonder if it's just how things are. I watched the Multi Platinum Pro Tools DVDs and they get crashes several times per video and commented on how you "should get used to this if you're going to work with Pro Tools."

As of now I'm using Reaper and have used Samplitude and experienced the same of worse stability. My average session is 40-60 audio tracks, 0-5 VSTi's, and probably 40 plugs or so.

So yeah...is this normal? Would a turn key system be more stable? Do I even consider a Mac in Boot Camp (Bob Katz does it, right?)? Or is my computer doing a good enough job and I should just suck it up and say computers are lame sometimes?

Thanks!

[deadears]

Originally Posted by zzfdvz@mac.com

My average session is 40-60 audio tracks, 0-5 VSTi's, and probably 40 plugs or so.

So yeah...is this normal? Would a turn key system be more stable? Do I even consider a Mac in Boot Camp (Bob Katz does it, right?)? Or is my computer doing a good enough job and I should just suck it up and say computers are lame sometimes?

IMO, no, 40 plug-ins is not "normal". Is it recorded so poorly that you have to tweak everything? I would suggest focusing on getting it right when you record it. The DAW app itself should be just fine with 40-60 tracks if you have a recent CPU.

Some plug-ins are CPU hogs. You can determine which plug-ins are eating up the CPU and modify your usage.

You can also strip down the apps running in the background taking up CPU cycles if you haven't already done so, like screen savers, email clients and browsers, virus protection and other crap that Windows loads as a default.

And if you buy another computer, by all means consider a Mac with Boot Camp.

~deadears

[Tui]

Originally Posted by zzfdvz@mac.com

Do I even consider a Mac in Boot Camp (Bob Katz does it, right?)?

I would only ever consider Macs. If you insist, you can run Windows on it, but I can't imagine why you would want to do that. OS X is brilliant for making music. During normal operation, my Mac Pro never crashes. That's right - never. Some applications may crash, however there are many possible reasons for an app to crash, which are usually quite independent from the strengths or weaknesses of the underlying OS.

[R3altruth]

Well being that he is using Sonar.. then the MAC OS is a no go....

Truth is there are a few different reasons for crashes... a very common one that people overlook is plugins... incompatible, problematic poorly coded plugins will crash even the most resolute of DAWs.... Also ASIO conflicts within your system.... Using multiple interfaces.... sometimes your Audio Interface can even conflict with the onboard sound drivers if they aren't disabled..... IRQ issues if you are using a PCI interface.... FW issues if you are using a chipset that isn't as reliable.... USB issues depending on which USB header you are using and what devices share that same header.... the list goes on and on....
Also within your DAW there can definitely be errors causing crashes...
Try to figure out what is the common underlying factor when a crash occurs.. was your CPU spiking? were you loading the same plugin every time? Was it when you tried to run Core Temp while playing audio in Sonar?
Plus each DAW software has frequent (or in some cases not so frequent) updates that remedy certain problems that would cause a crash....
Your first step should probably be to make sure you have the latest updates for your software and drivers for your hardware

[Sid Viscous]

If you are going to use Sonar there is no reason to spend the extra money to buy the same computer with an Apple stamped on it. Also, as much as some may scream otherwise OSX is no better than XP when it comes to stability.

Oh yeah, 40-60 tracks. 40-60 channel strips/eqs. How is that strange?

[bmdaugherty]

My thoughts exactly. One plug per track is pretty good if you ask me. A comp here, eq there... maybe a delay every once in a while. Even if every track doesn't have fx, your bound to have a plug on the 2bus and maybe a few fx channels and group compressors.

I often leave Nuendo on for several days straight with a project open. Never had a crash here on OS X. I only ever get crashes when I close a project and try to open another... This really affects nothing since I'm not actually working on anything when it happens. I think it might have to do with some plugin instances and not actually Nuendo...

I guess I would say that ever since I got Snow Leopard, Nuendo has been Rock Solid for me, in my situation, with my rig. Solidarity is very 'subjective'...

Peace,
Brian

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by bmdaugherty

My thoughts exactly. One plug per track is pretty good if you ask me. A comp here, eq there... maybe a delay every once in a while. Even if every track doesn't have fx, your bound to have a plug on the 2bus and maybe a few fx channels and group compressors.

I often leave Nuendo on for several days straight with a project open. Never had a crash here on OS X. I only ever get crashes when I close a project and try to open another... This really affects nothing since I'm not actually working on anything when it happens. I think it might have to do with some plugin instances and not actually Nuendo...

I guess I would say that ever since I got Snow Leopard, Nuendo has been Rock Solid for me, in my situation, with my rig. Solidarity is very 'subjective'...

Peace,
Brian

I do the same with Sonar and it may "crash" once or twice a month, and it's generally because my drive isn't awake. I suspect most DAW crashes are plug in related.

[R3altruth]

Originally Posted by Sid Viscous

I do the same with Sonar and it may "crash" once or twice a month, and it's generally because my drive isn't awake. I suspect most DAW crashes are plug in related.

That or doosh bags trying to do a ton of multitasking while playing back audio in the DAW... Yea if you've got 8 web pages open, a Playstation Emulator, Core temp... Solitaire, YOUTUBE streaming and a big ass PDF open....

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by R3altruth

That or doosh bags trying to do a ton of multitasking while playing back audio in the DAW... Yea if you've got 8 web pages open, a Playstation Emulator, Core temp... Solitaire, YOUTUBE streaming and a big ass PDF open....

I have Firefox open with 10+ tabs, several folders and anti-virus at all times.

[R3altruth]

Originally Posted by Sid Viscous

I have Firefox open with 10+ tabs, several folders and anti-virus at all times.

Folders don't really do much... and in terms of websites... it depends... some are way more hoggish than others.... AV depends on which one.... and if you're running full protection... just a firewall or if it's set to do a full system scan while you're recording...
Also I should note Audio drop out does not equal crash... crash is when the DAW software (or entire computer) either locks up completely.. or your software just shuts down.... or your computer restarts
My last computer was an Athlon 64 venice core..... and Sonar would only crash if it had been a long time since my last save... as if to teach me a lesson.... If I saved regularly than all would be well... as soon as I did a large chunk of work without saving...thats when the crash would come... thats what you call irony

[psycho_monkey]

40plugs is very very normal if you're mixing in the computer - even for well recorded material. The person saying it isn't sounds a little inexperienced - even if you're only shelving or subtractively eqing, most things are going to be touched, and if you're using separate eq and comp plugs, plus tape sims etc that gets eaten up quickly!

But also, 1 crash a day isn't stability to me - and I don't rate a DVD made by people who can't get a pt rig stable. I can't remember the last time my le rig crashed, not since the 8.0.1 update I'm sure.

[tazman]

I run Nuendo and SONAR and I never have crashes. Most crashes are caused by plug-ins, IMO, are you running some free plugs or plugs that are not meant to be used with your particular OS (i.e. running Vista with plugs that are not supposed to work with it) ?

[D K]

Sid,

Never see you on the Sonar forum anymore ???

Quite a few good ones gone from around there - not there too much myself really....

[alohachris]

Aloha,

I can tell you what the anti-Christ of "Rock Solid Stability" is:

Pro Tools LE w/ most PC's, processors and chipsets

NO DAW IS PERFECTLY STABLE. They all have problems at this stage - especially in the affordable range for most players. The trick is using the rig that has the fewest problems for YOUR applications.

But in my search, the closest thing to stability and common sense is building a signal chain where the components are integrated and actually made to work well with the DAW and vice versa.

The best rig (quality and stability) that you can out together affordably, IMO, is with Mac's with Logic Pro or other Apple DAW's and interfaces and pre's/conversion/clock made by Apogee, MOTU, etc. specifically for Logic.

When you get up into Pro Tools HD levels, that's where the fun - and the stability - are found. PTLE is the least stable of the bunch, in my experience. And their attached dongles suck in comparison to others on the market, even the 003r boys and girls.

But for most who just want to PLAY MORE than deal with error messages, I think an integrated component system built around Mac, Logic and Apogee is your best bet out of the gate. Certainly the most quality and most stability for the buck, IMO.

But ALL DAW's have problems integrating at this point, I have found.

alohachris

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by alohachris

The best rig (quality and stability) that you can out together affordably, IMO, is with Mac's with Logic Pro or other Apple DAW's and interfaces and pre's/conversion/clock made by Apogee, MOTU, etc. specifically for Logic.

When you get up into Pro Tools HD levels, that's where the fun - and the stability - are found. PTLE is the least stable of the bunch, in my experience. And their attached dongles suck in comparison to others on the market, even the 003r boys and girls.

But for most who just want to PLAY MORE than deal with error messages, I think an integrated component system built around Mac, Logic and Apogee is your best bet out of the gate. Certainly the most quality and most stability for the buck, IMO.

But ALL DAW's have problems integrating at this point, I have found.

alohachris

I agree with your theory on bespoke systems...however logic is far from stable!

HD is very stable on a Mac - way more so than logic - it's one of the reasons it's industry standard.

I don't deal with PCs but again I agree with your reasoning - multiple components etc

LE though again is perfectly stable here - I don't think I've had a crash yet with 8.0.1, and I'm running Autotune (which was buggy under early 8 revisions) and Battery/Kontakt regularly (sometimes 3-4 instances per session).

FWIW MOTU don't make anything "specifically" for Logic, and the Symphony system is really just integrated with the Mac, not with Logic especially. I don't think there's anything Logic-specific, it should integrate equally well with Cubase/Nuendo (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

[tazman]

If you know what you are doing with PC's, they are just as stable as Macs (which are also PC's). never have crashes. My system is able to run Nuendo and SONAR flawlessly.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by tazman

If you know what you are doing with PC's, they are just as stable as Macs (which are also PC's). never have crashes. My system is able to run Nuendo and SONAR flawlessly.

I agree -the trouble is, most people don't.

[zzfdvz@mac.com]

Thanks all for the replies. At this point I wanna start from the ground up. To fix this issue I'm on a very limited budget. My ultimate goal is to be running Sonar, with UAD2 Quad, and a solid comp.

Right now my comp is based around a Core 2 Quad Q6600.

I'm not sure what my best coarse of action is. I'd like to spend as little as possibley and replace the MOBO and RAM with quality proven parts. But I'm not sure if it would be the most cost effective. My MOBO right now is an MSI w a G31 chipset, and my RAM is generic (sorry, had to pinch pennies at the time...I'm paying for it now). Last I knew the P35 was a steady chipset and corsair RAM was rockin hard. Is there any better suggestions?

[SyncSailor]

As far as "rocks" go, there's a big difference between granite and shale.

[alohachris]

Aloha,

It is true that most people don't know what they're doing in computer recording because they're not pro audio engineers or producers. They're players who don't know #$%t about recording but who prefer playing to tweaking. Players like me.

I know the OP is a pro looking to upgrade into his new studio and is using 60 tracks at a time. But the reason for my response was for the players who are reading this who are looking for something simple AND STABLE that works - WITHOUT knowing what they are doing - and that doesn't kill their creativity in the process.

I was a commited PTLE guy as I planned my rig for a couple of years. But I quickly moved to Mac's and prefer their integration w/ Apogee and others that at least give us the illusion of stability.

If you check out DIGI's tiny list of approved, compatible PC brands, you'll have to admit that they don't care about the smaller track/playing crowd at all. Throw in upgrades and the potential for stability with a PTLE/PC combo is in the "I hope" zone. Plus the fact that their software is tied to their inferior dongles is a turn off and expense.

I'm not a Mac guy. Have always used PC's effectively - for 25 years. Now we have Mac's Logic Pro which IS buggy too. But we're talking about lesser degrees of evil here. For an acoustic guitar/singer like me who wants to archive my songs from 45 years of playing, using stereo mics two-tracks at a time, I need simple and more stable. But I also want higher than 44.1 recording quality along with great conversion and decent pre's (though I'll use externals). For my applications, I think the Mac/Logic Pro/Apogee Ensemble or Duet is the best combo at my level and the level of most players.

Of course, all the other DAW's can be made to work. Otherwise, they'd go out of business, right. It's just that the degree of stability is what we are talking about here, that and quality.

Back to the OP. How could anyone recommend PTLE to him as an upgrade for his new studio? Too many people have regular tracking issues and error messages when you try to move above 20 simult. tracks or increase plug-ins. Digi wants guys like him to spend the $10K and go with HD. I would too, if I needed it. HD is the best - but not for players, only for pro audio engineers and producers.

As it is now, ALL DAW's are too complicated and buggy for most players to deal with on a regular basis without compromising the MUSIC side of the equation, IMO.

If you find something that works, stick with it. And don't upgrade to different versions or else you're ........f.......gonna have to start all over again.

alohachris

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by zzfdvz@mac.com

Thanks all for the replies. At this point I wanna start from the ground up. To fix this issue I'm on a very limited budget. My ultimate goal is to be running Sonar, with UAD2 Quad, and a solid comp.

Right now my comp is based around a Core 2 Quad Q6600.

I'm not sure what my best coarse of action is. I'd like to spend as little as possibley and replace the MOBO and RAM with quality proven parts. But I'm not sure if it would be the most cost effective. My MOBO right now is an MSI w a G31 chipset, and my RAM is generic (sorry, had to pinch pennies at the time...I'm paying for it now). Last I knew the P35 was a steady chipset and corsair RAM was rockin hard. Is there any better suggestions?

If you're gonna stick with your same CPU, i'd get a P45 board made by Gigabyte. (they tend to have TI chips, and are stable) Don't buy the cheapest RAM either, Corsair is fine (just not the bottom of the barrel sticks from them)

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Back to the OP. How could anyone recommend PTLE to him as an upgrade for his new studio? Too many people have regular tracking issues and error messages when you try to move above 20 simult. tracks or increase plug-ins. Digi wants guys like him to spend the $10K and go with HD. I would too, if I needed it. HD is the best - but not for players, only for pro audio engineers and producers.

I can't see any post above that recommends PT LE. I have nothing to do with PCs for music, I wouldn't recommend anything there because I don't really have any experience with them.

LE's limitations for me are vastly outweighed by the positives.

To be honest, you only hear on forums about people who have problems - you don't really hear the success stories.

Given the circumstances you describe (non tech head, just wants to make music) buying either a mac or a music computer from a builder who will give tech support makes the most sense. Most drivers don't buy kit cars do they?

[R3altruth]

Well... If you DO plan on going PTLE... make sure you shuck out the extra 400 bucks for the Music production toolkit that upgrades you to 64 tracks....
I just couldn't see myself limited to 64 tracks at this point.... and wouldn't wanna pop 2 grand for the upgrade to 128 when most other programs are unlimited

[LQM]

While not that unusual to have 40 plugins on a big busy arrangement, I'd say that most people would do things such as grouping tracks and only running channel strips and plugins on groups for certain things, so I wouldn't say it was that common to have 40 plugins in a project (especially 40 DIFFERENT TYPES of plugin). Easier to manage if you group tracks and plugins and more CPU efficient.

I'd say it was more common to have 10-12 different plugins, some with multiple instances.

[bulls hit]

To the OP: you didn't say if it's just your sonar session crashing, or your whole machine is dying.

I had trouble with BSODs for months on my Core 2 duo, until one day in complete desperation I pulled one of the ram sticks. Problem solved. Had a lifetime warranty so Gskill replaced it no probs, but any component in your rig, even the 'good' stuff can crap out.

I'm still using the core2 duo with reaper, a couple of uad-1s, a uad-2, and I regularly get over 100 tracks and been crash-free since January

[bulls hit]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

LE's limitations for me are vastly outweighed by the positives.

32 tracks?

I don't think you can come back from that sort of limitation. Maybe 5 years ago when there wasn't much else around

[FredYeah]

99,99% of computerproblems find their origin between the chair and the keyboard. Seriously. I've been working with Pro Tools M-Powered with a M-Audio Projectmix Firewire interface and it is rocksolid. Because when I bought my new I7 XP32 system, I researched which chipsets would work, which firewire cards, which BIOS conifguration. Do I enable hyperthreading? What about IRQ sharing? And am i gonna use RAID? Do I want to use the energysave utilities?

And... my studiocomputer is disconnected from the internet or LANs always. I even activated all my software by phone. So also no AV... It runs supersmooth. Even at 128 Samples, I run 30+ plugs with about 10 RTAS instruments...

I have my old Pentium4 next to it, i can switch computers and monitors with the flick of a button. If i need to browse the inetnetz or something, i just use the other PC...

[Hammer v2]

Thanks all for the replies. At this point I wanna start from the ground up. To fix this issue I'm on a very limited budget. My ultimate goal is to be running Sonar, with UAD2 Quad, and a solid comp.

Right now my comp is based around a Core 2 Quad Q6600.

I'm not sure what my best coarse of action is. I'd like to spend as little as possibley and replace the MOBO and RAM with quality proven parts. But I'm not sure if it would be the most cost effective. My MOBO right now is an MSI w a G31 chipset, and my RAM is generic (sorry, had to pinch pennies at the time...I'm paying for it now). Last I knew the P35 was a steady chipset and corsair RAM was rockin hard. Is there any better suggestions?

Hey man. Your system looks pretty solid hey..
The motherboard should be fine hey. Most motherboards are pretty good these days. The 2 things in a computer that affect stability are usually crappy RAM and the power supply. The good news is that good quality RAM and power supplies are cheap so I'd start there for sure. No need to upgrade the CPU me thinks.

Sonar itself is pretty solid. Make sure you have all the updates and are running it on a nice shiny install of windows XP. That way you minimise potential conflicts. (run a special audio partition and dual-boot). If you're really hardcore you could install ubuntu for web/office etc and keep xp ONLY for audio. Ubuntu is generally fine for basic office stuff and it doesn't get any viruses/malware.

Oh, and lastly..like most people have said here already ..plugins! Plugs are notorious for affecting stability. You'll just have to run some tests and work out which ones are giving you issues.

Dunno if this helps at all....
good luck!

[screwtop]

I say accept nothing less than 100% stability. These days, crashing of the entire operating system (BSOD, kernel panics and the like) basically should never happen. In my experience, the big culprits of these are hardware or hardware-related:

• Bad RAM. Some starts bad, some goes bad in time. "Bad" can be very subtle. Test thoroughly with software such as Memtest86+.
• Hard disk errors. Bad sectors on a paging file/partition can crash the entire system. Do a surface read scan and/or verify with something like HDTune. Monitor for SMART errors. Swap out suspect cables (I've seen an entire filesystem corrupted by a bad SATA cable).
• Buggy (usually third-party) hardware drivers.
• Power supply. Too much current being drawn, heat, dust, and overstated power ratings are your enemies here.
• Failed cooling fans. These often make weird noises for a while before becoming completely silent when they stop spinning altogether!

Crashes of individual processes ("application errors") on otherwise stable hardware is more likely to do with errors in that software. Look for updates that may fix these.

If you're doing audio work professionally, it may be worth investing in server/workstation class hardware. Features such as ECC memory make these generally more reliable in always-on situations. Choosing fast, cheap, flaky hardware can be a false economy.

Just my 2 centidollars...

[speerchucker]

Originally Posted by zzfdvz@mac.com

I watched the Multi Platinum Pro Tools DVDs and they get crashes several times per video and commented on how you "should get used to this if you're going to work with Pro Tools."

FWIW, I run PT TDM on a Mac G5, 10+ hrs a day, 6-7 days a week. I probably crash about once per week, if that.

Reaper, on a balls-to-the-wall quad PC, crashes maybe once per 2 hours. Is it the DAW? I doubt it. Probably a PC thing. I dunno...

Anyway, how much ram are you using?
What HW buffer size?
Are all your drivers up to date?
Have you cleaned your registry lately, or (better) re-installed your OS?
Have you run diagnostics on your drives?
If you're overclocking, have you done a full torture-test?
------------------------


I have a question for you guys:

When Reaper crashes on me, it's always the same: The Daw closes, and I get a very loud, high-pitched buzzing at all outputs.

This seems to happen more when I have my HW buffer at 128, than when it's at 256. Also, I am fairly close (but not over) my ram allocation, using a Userva boot-init. (I run an obscene amount of VSTi's all at once.)

When Reaper crashes, the PC still runs fine. Therefore, am I safe in assuming it's NOT a PSU problem?

Still could be ram, I know, but I've run memtest a bunch of time, one stick at a time, and it seems fine.

Any ideas what my problem might be? You've got me thinking "plugins" - but I don't recall adding any new plugs at the time this problem started happening.

Last question: If the problem were an errant plugin, does it have to be instantiated, or can such a "bad" plugin cause trouble just sitting in the folder?