Lexicon PCM Native Reverb Plugin Bundle

[Ted Spencer]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to join the small group here who are not enthralled with the Native Reverb Bundle, or NRB as I'll abbreviate it from here on.

After spending quite a bit of time with the demo in various PT sessions, struggling unsuccessfully to get it to put a really big smile on my face, I sat down yesterday to find out once and for all what I could get out of the thing. I spent about 3 hours working with it and comparing it to my PCM90 (which I like very much, especially on vocals, which is what I use it for mainly) - I have a lightly edited version of the "Vocal Hall 2" preset which is my go-to vocal reverb when long-ish times are desired (it's set to about 2.8 seconds RT). I matched the 90's parameters, or started from scratch, and/or played with every single algorithm and editable parameter over and over again - but no joy. The PCM90's patch, which I didn't spend a great deal of time creating to begin with (years ago), consistently sounded far more satisfying to me than anything I could come up with on the NRB. Specifically, the 90 had a quality of decay (or perhaps it's better called 'sustain') in the midrange I could not achieve on the NRB with any amount of parameter twiddling. Voices 'carry' in the virtual 'room' in a wonderful, warm, pitch-sustaining way that I simply couldn't get out of the plugin. I meticulously, relentlessly tweaked parameter after parameter, over and over, in a vain search for this quality in the NRB.

When the two were compared in a mix context (I used a simple piano/bass/drums/vocal track), the difference was much more evident. The 90 gave the impression of a warm, satisfying reverberant space while the NRB seemed to wimp out in midrange sustain, resulting in a weaker, less musically interesting effect. The 90 made the vocal sound like it was recorded in an almost magical space. The NRB simply didn't.

I also threw in a bunch of other plugs for comparison. I used Ativerb IRs for EMT 140, AMS RMX16 "Ambience" and Lexicon 480L; and ReVibe, mostly set on its default "Large Natural Studio" patch, with various tweaks on its many Lexicon-like parameters. Of all the plugs, the best IMO were the Revibe and Altiverb EMT. Of those, ReVibe came closest to giving me what I get from the PCM90. I should say immediately that I do think the PCM90 has a more interesting decay, with more varied colors and textures (see "magical" above), but as for the 'musically satisfying sustain in the midrange', only the 90 and ReVibe had that quality. The Altiverb EMT was next best, but ReVibe did it better, and of course has edit-abilty far in excess of what any convo-verb can offer. Comparing ReVibe to all the others made me suspect that a PCM90 or something like it was squarely in the sights of its designers. The similarity in regard to the aforementioned midrange quality was unmistakeable, and absent in all others. Again, I don't think ReVibe is as good as a good Lexicon, but it's pretty darn nice. I've been using it and Altiverb (usually on EMT) almost exclusively for ITB (and many OTB) mixes for years now.

Bottom line - I won't be buying the Native Reverb Bundle. It's really very disappointing because had it lived up to my hopes I would have been perfectly willing to pay the price.

YMMV...

[Finkelstein]

my lexicon experience is mostly the pcm70, and then pcm80.
i still like the 80, and prefer it to the 90 and even this plugin / 96.

what is progress to some is actually not for me i think..
but it takes a very long time to get to know a verb, how it interacts in a mix, to anticipate what will work and how to dial it up..

i could be wrong, but the demo may be too short for me.

one sound i would love in the box is the pcm80 large room, bright er and lp tail.. a patch that 'works'
haven't worked the 96 to be as satisfying yet, anyone help me on this?

[elambo]

Who was it that said 'beware the first time poster with a lot of experience and an opposing view.'

[Tui]

Originally Posted by elambo

Who was it that said 'beware the first time poster with a lot of experience and an opposing view.'

You did. And your point is?

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by elambo

Who was it that said 'beware the first time poster with a lot of experience and an opposing view.'

I believe that was Sun Tzu.

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

I have a lightly edited version of the "Vocal Hall 2" preset which is my go-to vocal reverb when long-ish times are desired (it's set to about 2.8 seconds RT). I matched the 90's parameters, or started from scratch, and/or played with every single algorithm and editable parameter over and over again - but no joy.

Which PCM90 algorithm is the "Vocal Hall 2" preset using?

[Ted Spencer]

Originally Posted by elambo

Who was it that said 'beware the first time poster with a lot of experience and an opposing view.'

LOL. Yeah, for some reason I'm a first time poster here today (and hey, look - I just doubled my post count!). But I was a long-time poster over at the R.A.P. newsgroup from which this group (in large part) was born. Been posting a bit more at the Digi forum these days, and at various video/film related ones.

And yes, I have a lot of experience in audio. I've been engineering for a living for more decades than I'm willing to admit publicly.

And yes, the opposing view. Much as I wanted to like the Lexicon plugs (and I really did), I was ultimately disappointed.

I do agree though that a 14 day demo/evaluation period is too short for a complex thing like a (very) multi-parameter high-end reverb device. I felt very pressured to analyze it yesterday because the demo will expire forever in a few days. If I was going to spend $1500 or so on it I wanted to be darn sure I was going to like it and I wasn't. If the demo period had been 30 days instead I might have had a better chance to find a way to make it work for me.

Or not...

And I couldn't risk using it in actual work for pay because what if a client came back for mix tweaks after the demo expired and I hadn't bought the thing?

I'll always have a nagging feeling that hard as I tried to find it, the reverb setting of my dreams was just an alternative algorithm or parameter tweak away, but that ship is gonna sail before I can get on board. Too bad...

[Tui]

Either a new piece of gear makes you immediately think "I want that", or it doesn't. If it doesn't, chances are you're not going to change your mind after prolonged use.

[b0ssa]

Originally Posted by screentan

The flat head enables me to achieve a flat response which is a big help when mixing on Lego monitors.

LOL.. Personally, I prefer my mechano set mixer and Kellogg Corn Flakes box monitors. ( I guess that makes me a serial offender)

[Ted Spencer]

Originally Posted by seancostello

Which PCM90 algorithm is the "Vocal Hall 2" preset using?

Not sure which algorithm, since there is more than one "Hall" based one. It's in Program Bank P0: Halls, 1.2 "Vocal Hall 2". On the PCM90's display it reads exactly like this:

Halls: Vocal
P0 1.2 Vocal Hall 2

Like I said earlier, I made a few tweaks to the setting long ago, and have forgotten what they were. Likely an extension of the frequency cutoff was one. I saved it as a user patch and renamed it Vocal Hall 3.

[Ted Spencer]

Originally Posted by Tui

Either a new piece of gear makes you immediately think "I want that", or it doesn't. If it doesn't, chances are you're not going to change your mind after prolonged use.

In my experience this is usually true, but some things don't reveal their special magic until certain applications or ways of using it are 'discovered'.

Microphones in particular are almost endlessly surprising...

[Finkelstein]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

In my experience this is usually true, but some things don't reveal their special magic until certain applications or ways of using it are 'discovered'.

Microphones in particular are almost endlessly surprising...

microphones do take a long time to get to know, it's how they work out in a mix, how they take processing etc

the problem with this demo is i can't put it in 'real' work because i will have no recall after the demo runs out.. but real work is how i would be able to evaluate it

new verbs can sound 'pretty' at first, or 'realistic' ie a convo verb where its static nature is revealed in the mix and becomes less useful than one would first believe

[elambo]

Originally Posted by Finkelstein

the problem with this demo is i can't put it in 'real' work because i will have no recall after the demo runs out.. but real work is how i would be able to evaluate it

Then put it in 'fake' work. Seriously.

When we got the demo, we remixed several tracks which had originally used 4 stereo patches from a 960L. One test was to match them as closely as possible, another test was to improve upon them. It was much harder to match than to improve. In fact, the matching sessions take a couple days - we have 8 or 10 particular presets that we HAD to have available to us if the 960 was going out the door.

But then we started a session from scratch with the sole purpose of testing the plugin thoroughly. Snares, toms, kicks, guitars, male and female vocals, pizz and legato strings, etc. We imported a sh!tload of things from other sessions and laid them out along the time line then went to town. This was the best test we could manage and I think it revealed what the plugin had to offer.

It's also important not to simply run through the presets. Get off that beaten path and explore new things. It's very flexible and tweaking is quick and easy. Reading the manual to understand what each term refers to is also helpful, although most of them carry over from past Lex products or reverb in general.

[elambo]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

I'll always have a nagging feeling that hard as I tried to find it, the reverb setting of my dreams was just an alternative algorithm or parameter tweak away, but that ship is gonna sail before I can get on board. Too bad...

That may very well be the case, but not necessarily. If you gave it a good workout (and that part is essential) you then simply have to go with your gut. If your gut says no then you've probably made the right decision.

[Ted Spencer]

You have my total respect for your thorough efforts to evaluate the plugins.

I could probably find the answer to this with a search, but since it's such a simple question I'll just go ahead and ask. Did you decide to buy the Lexi NRB?

Originally Posted by elambo

Then put it in 'fake' work. Seriously.

When we got the demo, we remixed several tracks which had originally used 4 stereo patches from a 960L. One test was to match them as closely as possible, another test was to improve upon them. It was much harder to match than to improve. In fact, the matching sessions take a couple days - we have 8 or 10 particular presets that we HAD to have available to us if the 960 was going out the door.

But then we started a session from scratch with the sole purpose of testing the plugin thoroughly. Snares, toms, kicks, guitars, male and female vocals, pizz and legato strings, etc. We imported a sh!tload of things from other sessions and laid them out along the time line then went to town. This was the best test we could manage and I think it revealed what the plugin had to offer.

It's also important not to simply run through the presets. Get off that beaten path and explore new things. It's very flexible and tweaking is quick and easy. Reading the manual to understand what each term refers to is also helpful, although most of them carry over from past Lex products or reverb in general.

[mpod]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

You have my total respect for your thorough efforts to evaluate the plugins.

I could probably find the answer to this with a search, but since it's such a simple question I'll just go ahead and ask. Did you decide to buy the Lexi NRB?

I think (correct me if i am wrong) that he sold 960 becasue of NRB

Or that could be someone else in this looong thread...

[b0ssa]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

You have my total respect for your thorough efforts to evaluate the plugins.

I could probably find the answer to this with a search, but since it's such a simple question I'll just go ahead and ask. Did you decide to buy the Lexi NRB?

I think he liked it soooo much he bought the company.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

Not sure which algorithm, since there is more than one "Hall" based one. It's in Program Bank P0: Halls, 1.2 "Vocal Hall 2". On the PCM90's display it reads exactly like this:

Halls: Vocal
P0 1.2 Vocal Hall 2

If you hold down the 'Register Banks' the unit will display the algorithm in use.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by seancostello

Which PCM90 algorithm is the "Vocal Hall 2" preset using?

It's the Random Hall algorithm.

That preset have a long attack (high value of shape).

Low Rt : 1.0x
Mid Rt : 1.929 sec
Xover : 12.2kHz
Rt HC : 4.4kHz
PreDelay : 0ms
Shelf : Off
Size : 36.6m
Diffusion : 15%
Shape : 255
Spread : 0
Spin : 75%
Wander : 0
Link : On
High Cut : Flat

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by seancostello

I believe that was Sun Tzu.

in his late work "The Art of Guerilla Marketing Warfare"

[Denis Goekdag]

that made me laugh :-)

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Warp69

It's the Random Hall algorithm.

That preset have a long attack (high value of shape).

Low Rt : 1.0x
Mid Rt : 1.929 sec
Xover : 12.2kHz
Rt HC : 4.4kHz
PreDelay : 0ms
Shelf : Off
Size : 36.6m
Diffusion : 15%
Shape : 255
Spread : 0
Spin : 75%
Wander : 0
Link : On
High Cut : Flat

Nice to have you around. I wish I would have done this with my favorite PCM 70 presets before I sold it. In phones I like the 96 version more.

[slapswan]

They both sound nice to my ears. I am not sure it is possible to determine, which sounds objectively better. Maybe I am just happy with that result because I own a PCM 91...

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by Warp69

It's the Random Hall algorithm.

That preset have a long attack (high value of shape).

Low Rt : 1.0x
Mid Rt : 1.929 sec
Xover : 12.2kHz
Rt HC : 4.4kHz
PreDelay : 0ms
Shelf : Off
Size : 36.6m
Diffusion : 15%
Shape : 255
Spread : 0
Spin : 75%
Wander : 0
Link : On
High Cut : Flat

WTF? Were you running the PCM91 through a Leslie?

Also, as a non-owner of the PCM91 or PCM bundle, how do you get a long attack with Shape at 255, but Spread at 0?

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by seancostello

WTF? Were you running the PCM91 through a Leslie?

Well of course!! You forgot to mention the EQ'ing (not much but still), some compression and pitchshifting. I recorded it on a early VHS in extended mode - I played it for my daughter (btw she's 4) while she was trying to recreate the sound on a casio SA-45 - she tweaked the rubberduck sound preset. But don't worry, I used a Prism Orpheus to track the casio so the quality is quite good.

[Warp69]

This is what happens when you increase Attack while Spread is at 0 :

[Ted Spencer]

Thanks for that.

Well, I just spent some more time comparing, making sure to use the Random Hall algorithm (a few of them actually), and still can't get the same kind of musically satisfying decay as I do with the PCM90. It's subtle when A/B-ing, but not when just listening intuitively. Which is when it counts...

Reluctantly, I'm just gonna give up on this thing for now. Can't say I didn't try...

Originally Posted by Warp69

It's the Random Hall algorithm.

That preset have a long attack (high value of shape).

Low Rt : 1.0x
Mid Rt : 1.929 sec
Xover : 12.2kHz
Rt HC : 4.4kHz
PreDelay : 0ms
Shelf : Off
Size : 36.6m
Diffusion : 15%
Shape : 255
Spread : 0
Spin : 75%
Wander : 0
Link : On
High Cut : Flat

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

can't get the same kind of musically satisfying decay as I do with the PCM90.

Is your PCM90 digitally connected?

[elambo]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

Did you decide to buy the Lexi NRB?

Yes.

[gussyg2007]

Originally Posted by Ted Spencer

Thanks for that.

Well, I just spent some more time comparing, making sure to use the Random Hall algorithm (a few of them actually), and still can't get the same kind of musically satisfying decay as I do with the PCM90. It's subtle when A/B-ing, but not when just listening intuitively. Which is when it counts...

Reluctantly, I'm just gonna give up on this thing for now. Can't say I didn't try...

your kidding yourself dude..... this is the pcm 90
any difference you are hearing is not worth splitting hairs over , you have serious case of
"HW is better than plugs" disorder