Lexicon PCM Native Reverb Plugin Bundle

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by thermos

According to the developer, the hardware algos were coded in 32 bit c+ or something(???) and the native plugin is a direct port from the hardware algos.

Have NS stated the above or was it an extrapolation by someone else? If the Native PCM is using the exactly the same C/C++ code as the PCM96, wouldn't that indicate that the current version of the PCM96 have the crackling problem in the Concert Hall algorithm (which just got fixed in the Native PCM) and have some latency?

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Warp69

Have NS stated the above or was it a extrapolation by someone else? If the Native PCM is using the exactly the same C/C++ code as the PCM96, wouldn't that indicate that the current version of the PCM96 have the crackling problem in the Concert Hall algorithm (which just got fixed in the Native PCM) and have some latency?

I'm pretty sure I recall NS himself saying this. I don't know about the crackling, etc. My guess would be when fixing some code maybe the concert hall broke? I don't know s^%t about programming.

[audio ergo sum]

So nobody has done a null test yet, comparing plugin and hardware?
Can we make a list of all the randomizing parameters that need to be turned down in order for an A/B null test to be meaningful?
-Spin
-Wander
what else?

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by Shy

That unit has exactly the same reverbs. I guess you think it sounds better than itself.

How do you define "exactly"?

I don't have access to a Lexicon PCM96, but I did find some impulse responses from the Hall algorithm (posted by zmix in the reverb subculture thread) - Small Abrupt Hall preset. I thought it would be funny to see if I could match that preset from the PCM96 - the Native PCM have the exact same preset. Well, it was not possible - no matter what. With the exact same setting you have a difference of exactly 16 samples for the delay lines - the PCM Native have 16 samples shorter delay values compared to the PCM96 - you will of course not be able to compensate with larger size.

This could of course be a feature, but why is the difference this beautiful number of 16 samples? I would guess it's related to (a bug in) the block based processing in the Native PCM.

I was also unsuccessful with the matching of the output filters.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

So nobody has done a null test yet, comparing plugin and hardware?
Can we make a list of all the randomizing parameters that need to be turned down in order for an A/B null test to be meaningful?
-Spin
-Wander
what else?

And the chorus parameters in the Concert Hall algorithm. But you won't be able to null the algorithms because of the modulation - not even if you turn off the modulation, since you're not guaranteed that the modulation are in sync between the PCM96 and Native PCM.

[Firechild]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

So nobody has done a null test yet, comparing plugin and hardware?
Can we make a list of all the randomizing parameters that need to be turned down in order for an A/B null test to be meaningful?
-Spin
-Wander
what else?

The best part with algorithm reverbs is the random factors, I guess it will be very hard to do a nulltest.
convolution verbs are dead, Long live Algoverbs!

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by Warp69

How do you define "exactly"?

I don't have access to a Lexicon PCM96, but I did find some impulse responses from the Hall algorithm (posted by zmix in the reverb subculture thread) - Small Abrupt Hall preset. I thought it would be funny to see if I could match that preset with the PCM96 - the Native PCM have the exact same preset. Well, it was not possible - no matter what. With the exact same setting you have a difference of exactly 16 samples for the delay lines - the PCM Native have 16 samples shorter delay values compared to the PCM96 - you will of course not be able to compensate with larger size.

This could of course be a feature, but why is the difference this beautiful number of 16 samples? I would guess it's related to (a bug in) the block based processing in the Native PCM.

Whoa, look at fancy Doctor Science with all his fancy words! La-de-DAH!!



This is an interesting find. The Concert Hall "crackle" that people discussed on the PCM Plugin is very clearly a block-rate bug as well. My guess on that one is that the modulation was happening at a multiple of 16 or 32 samples, but that the block size being used by the DAW didn't divide evenly into that block size, and that there was an artifact at the block rate of the DAW.

Are you saying that you think that all of the delay lines are 16 samples different in length than on the PCM96? How does this affect the sound?

You are assuming that this is a bug in the PCM Native plugin, but are you sure about this? It could be a bug that was on the PCM96, and fixed in the PCM Native plugin. NS has implied in some of his GS posts that the PCM96 used a block size of 32 samples (well, at least it was implied to me and the few other people on this planet who follow this stuff to such a degree, and read between the lines on such things). Which of the presets sounds better to your ears, the zmix example or the PCM Native?

I haven't shaved in a week or so. Maybe it is time to grow me a reverb designer beard. I'll bet the wife would just LOVE that. It might help my slide playing as well.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by seancostello

Are you saying that you think that all of the delay lines are 16 samples different in length than on the PCM96?

I can only speak for that particular preset, since I don't have access to a Lexicon PCM96. Yes - there's a 16 samples different for that algorithm.

Originally Posted by seancostello

You are assuming that this is a bug in the PCM Native plugin, but are you sure about this? It could be a bug that was on the PCM96, and fixed in the PCM Native plugin. NS has implied in some of his GS posts that the PCM96 used a block size of 32 samples (well, at least it was implied to me and the few other people on this planet who follow this stuff to such a degree, and read between the lines on such things).

Ah - you're right. It could be an "unintentional feature" on the PCM96, that have been corrected in the PCM Native. I don't know which are correct - it could be intentional. My point was that the Hall algorithm from the PCM Native is not identical to the PCM96.

Im also not quite sure if the implementation of the 2 pole lowpass filter (shelf) is what I would have done - it has negative overshoot.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by seancostello

...

You are assuming that this is a bug in the PCM Native plugin, but are you sure about this? It could be a bug that was on the PCM96, and fixed in the PCM Native plugin. NS has implied in some of his GS posts that the PCM96 used a block size of 32 samples (well, at least it was implied to me and the few other people on this planet who follow this stuff to such a degree, and read between the lines on such things). Which of the presets sounds better to your ears, the zmix example or the PCM Native?

...

Well, I hope this is not true. Because if it is and no fix has been offered to the hardware customers it would backfire on Lex big time. In addition to the backfire they are inviting already for their current policies.

Just imagine you are someone who bought a PCM96 half a year ago. WOW!

[elambo]

Hey Warp... shouldn't you be working on something else?

[Froombosch]

Originally Posted by seancostello

I haven't shaved in a week or so. Maybe it is time to grow me a reverb designer beard.

LOL! I just shaved this morning after a week of difficult recording sessions. I guess I will never be a good reverbdesigner... lol

Funny picture with some amazing people.

[labcomp]

Just updated our Lex AU's to version 1.04. All the parameters (and sounds) from previous sessions seem to be coming back just fine, but the preset names are not accurate in user list. A quick toggle to desired name makes it OK, but is this a known thing?

DP7.02. OSX 10.4.11 MacPro 16gb ram

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by seancostello

I haven't shaved in a week or so. Maybe it is time to grow me a reverb designer beard. I'll bet the wife would just LOVE that. It might help my slide playing as well.

Ha ha ha ha! YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES.

- c

[work2do]

Originally Posted by labcomp

Just updated our Lex AU's to version 1.04. All the parameters (and sounds) from previous sessions seem to be coming back just fine, but the preset names are not accurate in user list. A quick toggle to desired name makes it OK, but is this a known thing?

DP7.02. OSX 10.4.11 MacPro 16gb ram

my user presets were gone in update. Had to go back thru a few sessions and just resave settings. No big deal, only had 3 user setups so far.

[Chao]

Anyone uses it in DP? Do they work well?

Thanks!

[labcomp]

Originally Posted by Chao

Anyone uses it in DP? Do they work well?

Thanks!

Beautifully except as noted in our previous post.

[labcomp]

Originally Posted by konkaos

my user presets were gone in update. Had to go back thru a few sessions and just resave settings. No big deal, only had 3 user setups so far.

Wierd. Our presets are there in the list. Just that the wrong name comes up. Yet you lost yours. Hmmm.


Any ideas NS???

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Nobody Special

I've seen speculation about there still being differences in sound. One of the commenters with demo code has stated there is a difference. Time for a bit of explanation.

One of the bugs I fixed had to do with a parameter called "Tap Slope". It's busted in the PCM96 (as strongly attested by zmix) and it's fixed in the plug. It does cause a small difference in sound, and I will fix it in the 96 when I've got time.

There were a number of small changes I made in the way reverb decay time is measured. This means that there will be tiny differences in the time between the plug and the box--especially at small room sizes. One thing I've learned is that mixers use their ears anyway and not the numbers. It's easy to tweak from the fader, which is why it's always in the soft row. I'll backfill those changes in the box too, when I've got a chance.

There are a number of other little tweaks, noticeable or not, that are in my notes. So I'm not slavish about duplicating old stuff--warts and all. They are still the same algorithms--with corrections. They are in no way crippled.

And finally, I've been spending time 'recalibrating' presets. In general, you want something like unity gain through a preset. In truth, you can't get there, since the response of a reverb is so strongly dependent on the source material. But I'm still tweaking gains.

So even if you turn off spin, you'll find that algorithms don't null. Should they?

I've just begun a week of badly-needed vacation. I'll monitor this list while I can, but responses will be infrequent. I'm not ignoring you for good--just for a while.

N.S.

I couldn't find Nobody Special talking about C++ (I think it was Sean), but this is interesting nonetheless.

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by labcomp

Wierd. Our presets are there in the list. Just that the wrong name comes up. Yet you lost yours. Hmmm.

Any ideas NS???

Makes no sense to me if you're saving user presets using the 'Store' dialog we provide. There's no difference in the format of user presets between versions (they're just files and the name of the file is the name of the preset). The installation process doesn't touch them. If you use the preset dialogs provided with the DAWs, then there's no telling what might have happened.

If you're running as a different user, then you won't have access to presets you stored under a previous user name. It's easy enough to dupe them, though. I also suppose it's possible that you could have run into file access issues if something mucked around with your permissions. On the Mac, ~/Library/Application Support/Lexicon/Native and everything below should be R/W. Your user guide will tell you where to look on the PC.

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Ha ha ha ha! YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES.

My wife just said, in essence, a thousand times no. My face is now baby smooth.

I will have to buy a fake beard to don when I am reverb coding, to channel the spirits of the algorithm ancestors. Maybe an Alistair Crowley robe would be useful, as well.

"College boy thinks he's too good for the sing-along beard, huh?"

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by thermos

I couldn't find Nobody Special talking about C++ (I think it was Sean), but this is interesting nonetheless.

C++ mentioned by NS here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/3999258-post113.html

[labcomp]

Originally Posted by Nobody Special

Makes no sense to me if you're saving user presets using the 'Store' dialog we provide. There's no difference in the format of user presets between versions (they're just files and the name of the file is the name of the preset). The installation process doesn't touch them. If you use the preset dialogs provided with the DAWs, then there's no telling what might have happened.

If you're running as a different user, then you won't have access to presets you stored under a previous user name. It's easy enough to dupe them, though. I also suppose it's possible that you could have run into file access issues if something mucked around with your permissions. On the Mac, ~/Library/Application Support/Lexicon/Native and everything below should be R/W. Your user guide will tell you where to look on the PC.

Hi NS,

I will have someone check your permissions idea tomorrow. We always religiously repair prefs prior to , and post any install and of course reboot.

We have always used the LEX preset management as opposed to DP.

Thanks for the input sir.

[chris_m]

I could finally play around with the native verb at a friends studio, very nice. Coming from impulse responses i love how it glues with the source instrument, sits in the mix and you're able to modify many parameters. Gotta save up some $$$ quickly


Slightly OT but i'm curious if it's possible to re-create my all time fav 480L preset. Actually I couldnt find this in the 480 Manual but it's included in the 480L impulse set from rhythminmind and i also heard it in alot of my favourite music from the late 90s. The file/presetname is: 480L, Amb tails (456)_dc

[Sirocco]

how about we start sharing presets?

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by Sirocco

how about we start sharing presets?

Lexicon should have a patch-sharing website. This would be smart of them.

- c

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Lexicon should have a patch-sharing website. This would be smart of them.

- c

Yes. The guys recreating patches from other boxes would make interest in this plugin even greater, if there was a place to share them.

[Farshad]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Lexicon should have a patch-sharing website. This would be smart of them.

- c

Yes, that is a great idea.

I wonder when we will begin to see impulse responses of the PCM bundle

[labcomp]

Originally Posted by labcomp

Hi NS,

I will have someone check your permissions idea tomorrow. We always religiously repair prefs prior to , and post any install and of course reboot.

We have always used the LEX preset management as opposed to DP.

Thanks for the input sir.

NS, we did check all the permissions et al. They are fine. All are set to R&W.

As mentioned above the parameter data is correct on DP sessions saved with LEX v 1.01 presets. But the names for 'user presets' are not correct. WHat we did as a workaround is screenshots of at least front panel, and then searched our user preset list for the one that matches it. Resaved the DP file under new name, and all is well. But still dont know why this is happening.

BTW: What is the best way to rename a preset NS?

[crille]

Can somebody make an A/B test with plugin vs hardware?

I would like to hear drums compared.

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by labcomp

But still dont know why this is happening.

Me either. Gonna have to think about that. Do the names make sense in ~/Library/Application Support/Lexicon/Native/UserPresets/AlgorithmName? They should read PresetName.xml.

BTW: What is the best way to rename a preset NS?

A little clumsy. Load a user preset, store it with a different name, delete the original. Or if you're brave you can dig down in the user library (previous paragraph) and do it directly. Don't do that little hack if a copy of the plug is actually running.