SoundToys - Decapitator Plugin

[Ol' Betsey]

Has the modern idea of free gotten so out of whack that we can now say that we feel cheated when given the opportunity to demo software?

I haven't demoed the Decapitator but I find it hard to believe I would ever feel cheated when I've chosen to try something out that I haven't paid for.

That's like someone asking if you'd like a free 10 track CD and you calling up and saying 'Hey, I wanted the 12 track CD. I feel ripped off...' and the guy saying he's sorry but the CD has only ever had 10 tracks.

Dr.Bill I get the point: You would like a way to A/B your settings. You would like an Output Control. I also understand if you think they've done this only to achieve a "Look at me I'm louder therefore better' sound but I really doubt that is the case with Sound Toys.

I mean, I get ya but, then again, I don't?

R.

[drBill]

Perhaps cheated is a word that holds too much negative. I'll retract it. I see your point, but I think you are misunderstanding mine. I don't feel cheated by getting to try Decapitator. I feel....hmm, what word to use, perhaps "manipulated", by the auditioning process.

What I was trying to convey is that as is, the plug is difficult for me to use. Not impossible, not a waste of money, not a worthless plug, just difficult. Upon first listen, I immediately thought it was spectacular. But after a difficult PITA of gain staging in a couple of mixes already together, I realized I'd duped myself into believiing it was a better sound, when in fact, with the controls adjusted as I had adjusted them (I didn't touch a single preset - just tweaked for my own ears), I had only fooled myself.

In a similar scenario, if I want a particular singer to like one mic over another, all I have to do is raise the gain 3-4 dB, and unless there's a glaring problem with one or the other, it's a given they will choose the louder mic. The same thing is at work here.

I don't mean to dis ST or the Decapitator. I dig it, and I'll find it useful. And I'll probably buy it.

All I'm saying is that they are doing me a dis-service by not dealing with the gain issues. It makes me feel like they are trying to make it seem better than it really is. I know the drill, I know the bias that volume injects into any listening situation.

All that's needed is to go back and crank the DRIVE or MIX harder, and you can get your desired effect, but without exactly that - careful A/B-ing, what the majority are "hearing" is quite simply "more gain".

IMPORTANT : As a note, my comments regarding this are confined to mild "tape like" saturation and an effort to "analog-ize" digital recordings. If you're after over the top nasty distortion, the Decapitator will certainly deliver it's namesake with no problem.

I wish ST the best of luck, and if they implement some decent way to A/B the effected sound against the original, I'll be a buyer and I think that many will be very happy.

Hey, THEY said I was a beta tester, right?? Well, there's my beta testing comments. Or should I only soft pedal and say there's no problems? If they only wanted to let me try out a "DEMO" I probably wouldn't have said what I said. I thought they were looking for constructive criticism and not just adoration.

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by drBill

All I'm saying is that they are doing me a dis-service by not dealing with the gain issues. It makes me feel like they are trying to make it seem better than it really is. I know the drill, I know the bias that volume injects into any listening situation.

Your misgivings, from a technical perspective, are fair enough.

What strikes me as unduly sinister is the insinuation that there's some kind of conspiracy going on at Soundtoys to make it difficult for people to assess their feelings about the plug-in.

Seems a little bit paranoid to me.

- c

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Your misgivings, from a technical perspective, are fair enough.

What strikes me as unduly sinister is the insinuation that there's some kind of conspiracy going on at Soundtoys to make it difficult for people to assess their feelings about the plug-in.

Seems a little bit paranoid to me.

- c

Sinister???

It's probably my fault for not expressing my thoughts better. I do not mean to insinuate any conspiracy at ST.

And these issues are not confined to ST. There alots of plug in companies that utilize the same type of A/B archetecture.

But back to the conspiracy stuff. There ARE aliens watching my house...... Can you help me out?

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by drBill

Hey, THEY said I was a beta tester, right?? Well, there's my beta testing comments. Or should I only soft pedal and say there's no problems? If they only wanted to let me try out a "DEMO" I probably wouldn't have said what I said. I thought they were looking for constructive criticism and not just adoration.

No I totally get you. Especially on the Beta/Demo front and giving feedback/suggestions. Soft-pedaling and fanboy-ism helps no one.

It was just the 'cheated' 'cheapened' and 'manipulated' that struck a cord with me as those aren't normally terms I would associate with either Sound Toys specifically or beta/demos in general.



Back to my Christmas Eve turkey now...

R.

P.S. Just saw your last post... Aliens you say? Are you sure that isn't Santa's elves checking to see if you're being naughty or nice?

[Ruud Unit]

So, about that output trim knob...

Until then, don't forget to use your ears. drbill is right about that mic volume thing, and that principle applies to pretty much every piece of gear out there. ("You mean they put boost on EVERY BAND of this high end tube EQ???")

As for this plugin being mostly gain and little distortion/saturation, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm using it in all sorts of different slots in the signal path, sometimes on auxes or before limiters, in between other plugs etc, and I'm getting a wide range of usable (and noticeable) tonal variations.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey

It was just the 'cheated' 'cheapened' and 'manipulated' that struck a cord with me as those aren't normally terms I would associate with either Sound Toys specifically or beta/demos in general.



Back to my Christmas Eve turkey now...

OK, OK I'll take back the "cheapened" along with the earlier retracted "cheated". It's been a long week, and my Christmas Eve hasn't started yet, as there's still mixing to be finished believe it or not. After close to a dozen days of mixing 12+ hours, I'm looking for plugs that make my life EASIER and better instead of harder and better. I'm holding on to "manipulated" until I use it more though. thumbsup Merry Christmas and enjoy that Turkey.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Ruud Unit

As for this plugin being mostly gain and little distortion/saturation, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

man, I guess I'm having to pay pennance for my comments now......


I don't disagree with you. It can certainly get saturated/distorted. That's pretty obvious. It's the GAIN issues that make it hard to judge just how much distortion I'm getting and how much of it is just illusionary gain. Then, add an additional plug-in just to A/B, and perhaps you can see my frustration. Mute 2 plugs, unmute 2 plugs, back and forth....... Actually, I think you already get it.

As an interestiing side note on the POSITIVE side, I can hear it compress harder on certain notes (like a guitar amp) in Pentode mode. Very cool.

[Ruud Unit]

No worries man. I certainly understand your frustration, and an output trim knob does seem like a rather glaring omission this day and age.

Hopefully they will update that during the beta period.

[PlayRadioPlay]

I value Dr Bill's opinions, but I have to disagree. There is a lot more going on than just making the signal louder. I haven't put this on a single instrument (yes, I level matched) where it came out the other end the exact same. There's a huge coloration in the lows/low mids on most of the presets, and a slight coloration in the highs which varies greatly between presets. I don't claim to have the best ears, I'm a musician more than an engineer, but even I can hear a big difference.

There's also some nice compression going on, which actually allows the signal to be 'louder' while having fewer peaks. If you're looking at a VU, then you'll see this plugin enables you to have a slightly hotter signal while sounding louder (such is the nature of compression). If you're level matching by ear, then the colored signal will actually be quieter when it comes to actual energy.

Anyway, still loving this plugin a lot, and still hoping for an output control.

[cane creek]

Im loving Decapitator , i also own URS saturation , PSP vintage warmer & UA EL Fatso ...this collection give a vast palette of tone/colour/character i'm like a kid in a sweet shop at the moment.....Oh and not forgetting the saturation 'Drive' knob on the UA Moog filter still by far the best sounding Drive knob in plugin land.

[henge]

Has anyone had trouble installing in Reaper?
For some reason Reaper will not see the .dll!

[nigel saunders]

This and the lexicon reverb are must buys imo

[K-Slash]

Originally Posted by cane creek

[...]i'm like a kid in a sweet shop at the moment.....[...]

Me too, except that I'm the one who says to his friend : "Come on, let's go back home, I can't buy anything here !".

I just purchased the URS Saturation because of the Christmas offer and I also have PSP VintageWarmer2.

Just with these 2 plugins, you can get "NICE & CREAMY" saturation flavours, but I have to say that the Decapitator offers even more "better" flavas.

Add to this the Wave Arts Tube Saturator, SPL TwinTube, the free TesslaPRO and FerricTDS and you have THE almost perfect list of native plugins for saturation/warmth/mojo/colouring tools, going from subtle to extreme with the best audio quality.

Period.

By the way I would love to be able to use the UA EL Fatso Sr, and UA Moog filter...

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by drBill

man, I guess I'm having to pay pennance for my comments now......


I don't disagree with you. It can certainly get saturated/distorted. That's pretty obvious. It's the GAIN issues that make it hard to judge just how much distortion I'm getting and how much of it is just illusionary gain. Then, add an additional plug-in just to A/B, and perhaps you can see my frustration. Mute 2 plugs, unmute 2 plugs, back and forth....... Actually, I think you already get it.

As an interestiing side note on the POSITIVE side, I can hear it compress harder on certain notes (like a guitar amp) in Pentode mode. Very cool.

I agree it increases apparent loudness but that is part of the saturation process. As is the compression. If you match the levels its still pretty obvious in action IMO.
Ive been using it in Ableton with gain utility plugins on either side since I got it as its much more versatile in this way especially for the lighter saturation which sound great to me.
I do agree tho one must be careful with levels when evaluating...

[b0ssa]

Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey

Has the modern idea of free gotten so out of whack that we can now say that we feel cheated when given the opportunity to demo software?

I haven't demoed the Decapitator but I find it hard to believe I would ever feel cheated when I've chosen to try something out that I haven't paid for.

That's like someone asking if you'd like a free 10 track CD and you calling up and saying 'Hey, I wanted the 12 track CD. I feel ripped off...' and the guy saying he's sorry but the CD has only ever had 10 tracks.

Dr.Bill I get the point: You would like a way to A/B your settings. You would like an Output Control. I also understand if you think they've done this only to achieve a "Look at me I'm louder therefore better' sound but I really doubt that is the case with Sound Toys.

I mean, I get ya but, then again, I don't?

R.

This is a public BETA release so the guy is allowed to make suggestions.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by drBill

Sinister???

It's probably my fault for not expressing my thoughts better. I do not mean to insinuate any conspiracy at ST.

And these issues are not confined to ST. There alots of plug in companies that utilize the same type of A/B archetecture.

But back to the conspiracy stuff. There ARE aliens watching my house...... Can you help me out?

Actually what I think Dr Bill is trying to say.. is that if Soundtoys can implement an output control is not only gonna be better for gain staging, but also would allow us to have a BETTER use of decapitator.
What I mean is that if we can adjust the output equal to when is in bypass mode, we could dial better into Decapitator in order to achieve the best sound we need, not just be a bit disoriented or confused believing that this setting is perfect just by the higher output comparing it to bypass mode.

I really like the Plug in..but as I stated earlier a Master Output control would be the best extra feature on this Plug in!

higher output
higher output

[drBill]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

Actually what I think Dr Bill is trying to say.. is that if Soundtoys can implement an output control is not only gonna be better for gain staging, but also would allow us to have a BETTER use of decapitator.
What I mean is that if we can adjust the output equal to when is in bypass mode, we could dial better into Decapitator in order to achieve the best sound we need, not just be a bit disoriented or confused believing that this setting is perfect just by the higher output comparing it to bypass mode.

I really like the Plug ins..but as I stated earlier a Master Output control would be the best extra feature on this Plug in!

higher output
higher output

Yes. Thank you Amiel! thumbsup

[AMIEL]

Yeah, I think the Decapitator is really great!!

Just I think that we can even squeeze better sounds with an output control!

[BorrelNote]

Ok, guys.....maybe this little gem can help you out:

McDodo's Super-Volu

It makes sure the output level is exactly the input level AFTER the plugin. I use this a lot and helps deciding if I'm doing things for the better or the worse with a plugin.

Happy Xmas !

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by b0ssa

This is a public BETA release so the guy is allowed to make suggestions.

Oh really? Did I have a problem with his suggestions?

You missed my point. A point Dr.Bill seemed to understand.

Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey

It was just the 'cheated' 'cheapened' and 'manipulated' that struck a cord with me as those aren't normally terms I would associate with either Sound Toys specifically or beta/demos in general.

Originally Posted by drBill

OK, OK I'll take back the "cheapened" along with the earlier retracted "cheated". It's been a long week, and my Christmas Eve hasn't started yet, as there's still mixing to be finished believe it or not. After close to a dozen days of mixing 12+ hours, I'm looking for plugs that make my life EASIER and better instead of harder and better. I'm holding on to "manipulated" until I use it more though. Merry Christmas and enjoy that Turkey.

But maybe you didn't read that far? No biggie.

Have a great Christmas guys!

R.

[lllubi]

whats the sense in not implementing auto gain in such a plug ?
selling more units ?

[Shy]

Originally Posted by lllubi

whats the sense in not implementing auto gain in such a plug ?
selling more units ?

There is auto gain, and it goes to a huge amount like over 40db. It's just not that accurate in keeping the level similar to the input level. It's not easy at all to do that with such an effect and there are many factors involved, it's not easily predictable. I guess they'll improve that as well as add an output level control.
And I'm tired of implies that SoundToys is trying to fool anyone. That's absolutely out of place and has no relation to reality.

[t_d]

my god.. this forum is getting harder and harder to read....

[Shy]

Originally Posted by t_d

my god.. this forum is getting harder and harder to read....

Yes, and if posts like this were more common it would be much easier .

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by lllubi

whats the sense in not implementing auto gain in such a plug ?
selling more units ?

Dude, have you ever used a Soundtoys plug??? They DO NOT need to fool anyone - their work equals instant classics which is not an easy feat in the plug-in world - get some perspective before posting - if you knew their history (Eventide DSP) then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to lame out....

[aluman]

It's nice but I think URS saturation can do some things that this one can not. (Tube mic pre german preset on drums for example).
The preset in the URS form a larger palette IMHO. And it has an output control.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by aluman

It's nice but I think URS saturation can do some things that this one can not. (Tube mic pre german preset on drums for example).
The preset in the URS form a larger palette IMHO. And it has an output control.

I like the URS Saturation Plug in also, but Decapitator is totally different.....I would not compare them, both have great stuff to offer.

Also when I buy a plug in like URS Saturation, Decapitator..etc where u have all those Types and Saturation Modes..I really do not care about the names of the Emulations.

I use my ear and what it sounds great for the application I use.

To buy a plug in or even hardware based on: "Oh, now I need the British Iron" that does not make it happen to me, I just play with the parameters and use what it sounds appropiate , so comparing URS Saturaion and Decapitator based on the "names and types " of the circuit emulation is just unrealistic. (aluman , I am not saying this based on your comment)

Both are great.....I just want the output control on Decapitator!

[lllubi]

Originally Posted by Shy

There is auto gain, and it goes to a huge amount like over 40db. It's just not that accurate in keeping the level similar to the input level. It's not easy at all to do that with such an effect and there are many factors involved, it's not easily predictable. I guess they'll improve that as well as add an output level control.
And I'm tired of implies that SoundToys is trying to fool anyone. That's absolutely out of place and has no relation to reality.

louder always wins

[roderick]

You have to have ilok to try out decapitator?