plugin compressor as subsitute for hardware compressor in vocal chain? in AA3

[statixx]

Ok let me first explain that I was looking into getting a golden age projects pre 73....And I was thinking that I would need a budget compressor like a rnc or something to track vocals with....Also let me say im only tracking vocals soley....Nothing else.....Someone suggested to me instead of getting a out board compressor that if I had some good compressor plugins(which I do waves ssl api)that I could set up a bus or aux track and record it with the compression plugin....The idea is that I want the compressor to work while tracking(during recording mode) so that it will smooth out dynmic spikes* while recording....Jus like a hardware compressor would....Can someone explain in easiest details possible how to do this in adobe audition* *3? When ever ive tried to do this....I still get a wave form with spikes all over indicating the compressor didnt work while recording it only like reads it....How do I write the compression plugin to the waveform as it is being recorded??? I hope this makes sense...I tried to explain in full detail...Any help greatly appriciated.

[EddieTheRed]

Originally Posted by statixx

Ok let me first explain that I was looking into getting a golden age projects pre 73....And I was thinking that I would need a budget compressor like a rnc or something to track vocals with....Also let me say im only tracking vocals soley....Nothing else.....Someone suggested to me instead of getting a out board compressor that if I had some good compressor plugins(which I do waves ssl api)that I could set up a bus or aux track and record it with the compression plugin....The idea is that I want the compressor to work while tracking(during recording mode) so that it will smooth out dynmic spikes* while recording....Jus like a hardware compressor would....Can someone explain in easiest details possible how to do this in adobe audition* *3? When ever ive tried to do this....I still get a wave form with spikes all over indicating the compressor didnt work while recording it only like reads it....How do I write the compression plugin to the waveform as it is being recorded??? I hope this makes sense...I tried to explain in full detail...Any help greatly appriciated.

I'm not sure whether you can do this in Audition, you can record through plugins in Cubendo by adding plugs to the input bus . . .

But since this is post-converter compression it won't give you a safety net from clipping the converters, so what's the benefit? You gain nothing, and your mix engineer loses options.

There should be no need to track through a compressor nowadays. Record at 24bit, with an average level of -18db rms. You won't clip the converters, you still have a huge dynamic range over the noise floor, and your mixes will sound better.

Have a look at the big ITB gain staging thread!

[statixx]

So what are you saying? That I should just record at a lower volume to try and prevent digital clipping?.....Thats all this is about....Im worried about ruining vocal takes because of clipping....Can I record it at lower volume so it doesnt clip and make it up later with a limiter like r vox or something....Or is this not proper techquine? Youll have to excuse me my only other pre is a ua la 610 which has a great optical compressor in it so ive never ran into this problem before...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by statixx

So what are you saying? That I should just record at a lower volume to try and prevent digital clipping?.....Thats all this is about....Im worried about ruining vocal takes because of clipping....Can I record it at lower volume so it doesnt clip and make it up later with a limiter like r vox or something....Or is this not proper techquine? Youll have to excuse me my only other pre is a ua la 610 which has a great optical compressor in it so ive never ran into this problem before...

Once you've hit the converters, anything ITB won't prevent clipping. So if you don't have a hardware compressor, you're going to have to record at a lower level.

In the age of tape, and after that 16bit recording, there was an advantage in terms of noise floor to recording hotter - hence the reason people used compressors on the way in.

With 24 bit recording, that reason is largely redundant - you have a dynamic range of 144dB to play with, which is greater than the range of human hearing (if 0dBA is the threshold of what can be heard, 120dBA is pain, and anything above 100dBA uncomfortable). So, recording and leaving a healthy amount of headroom is absolutely fine. Of course people still like to use hardware on the way in, but for different reasons - to commit to a sound, or to free up the hardware for another source in the mix.

The whole "average level of -18dBFs" is a little bit skewed by some - professional studios are set up so that 0VU is the same as -18dBFs in the computer (or -16dBFs, or another lineup - but -18 is as common as any). So...if you're hitting 0VU on your console, you're hitting -18dBFs in your computer. OF course, consoles being analogue have headroom so you can go over 0VU (sometimes by a considerable amount) so this lineup effectively gives you 18dB of digital "headroom" before you begin to clip.

Anyway, don't worry about average levels or anything, just make sure that when you're recording, your loudest sections are a good way below full scale - say leave 6-10dB of headroom.

Then, either when you're recording or afterwards when you're mixing, add a compressor to taste. There's really no point bussing through aux tracks etc to commit to a plugin, if you really want to commit to the sound just record then print it through the plugin afterwards and disable the original track - that way you can always come back to it as a last resort.

[George Necola]

besides soundshaping and "in your face sounds" with a hardware compressor, it is necessary to apply a HW-compressor if your vocal technique is not professinal. you will struggle with a lot of loud/quite parts. software comps can adjust that, you may need manual leveling.. takes a lot of time.

that's why I would get one and start playing with it. if you have only the money for a goldenage pre and an FMR, then this is it. you can upgrade later.

I wouldsave the money and buy more professional stuff with a retail value.

cheers
George

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Once you've hit the converters, anything ITB won't prevent clipping. So if you don't have a hardware compressor, you're going to have to record at a lower level.

In the age of tape, and after that 16bit recording, there was an advantage in terms of noise floor to recording hotter - hence the reason people used compressors on the way in.

With 24 bit recording, that reason is largely redundant - you have a dynamic range of 144dB to play with, which is greater than the range of human hearing (if 0dBA is the threshold of what can be heard, 120dBA is pain, and anything above 100dBA uncomfortable). So, recording and leaving a healthy amount of headroom is absolutely fine. Of course people still like to use hardware on the way in, but for different reasons - to commit to a sound, or to free up the hardware for another source in the mix.

The whole "average level of -18dBFs" is a little bit skewed by some - professional studios are set up so that 0VU is the same as -18dBFs in the computer (or -16dBFs, or another lineup - but -18 is as common as any). So...if you're hitting 0VU on your console, you're hitting -18dBFs in your computer. OF course, consoles being analogue have headroom so you can go over 0VU (sometimes by a considerable amount) so this lineup effectively gives you 18dB of digital "headroom" before you begin to clip.

Anyway, don't worry about average levels or anything, just make sure that when you're recording, your loudest sections are a good way below full scale - say leave 6-10dB of headroom.

Then, either when you're recording or afterwards when you're mixing, add a compressor to taste. There's really no point bussing through aux tracks etc to commit to a plugin, if you really want to commit to the sound just record then print it through the plugin afterwards and disable the original track - that way you can always come back to it as a last resort.

[M4-10]

Tracking with no outboard gear to a DAW track that has a software compressor or EQ which then feeds another track will not prevent any clipping and will not give any benefit (except that you can operate with fewer plugins later).

Analog gear usually has meters... shoot for an average of 0 VU (also known as +4 dBu with professional gear) on those meters. This is the level the gear is designed to run at and will "sound best" (you can sometimes break this rule if you know what you are doing). Your analog to digital converter should be set so that a signal at 0 VU comes in to your DAW as -18 dBfs (dBfs is how level is measured in digital, with 0 being a peak, which is very unpleasant in digital).

The only reasons to track with an outboard compressor or EQ to a 24-bit DAW is because you really prefer the sound of that outboard gear to plugins and want to commit it (because you will be mixing in the box with no access to the gear later), or if the performance is unusually dynamic (soft singing and shouting in the same song, with no chance to reset the preamp). The performer can get 18dB louder than average without clipping (in addition to your DAW, outboard gear including your preamp will be at risk of clipping at about that level, depending on that gear's headroom). So as long as the loudest part is no more than 18dB louder than the average, you should be fine without a compressor (and if this is the case, consider manually riding the preamp gain knob for the loudest part of the song).

[statixx]

A friend a mines tried to state the arguement 'record as hot as possible'.....I knew this was unnessecary and improper technique when it came to 24 bit converters and in the digital world...Especially if I only have a gap and no hw compressor ....You guys justified my thinking....Now I can show him some of your quotes....We can lower the gain on the pre ...And get some better recordings!!!XP thanks for all the replies.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by George Necola

it is necessary to apply a HW-compressor if your vocal technique is not professinal. you will struggle with a lot of loud/quite parts. software comps can adjust that, you may need manual leveling.. takes a lot of time.

....it's not NECESSARY to use a hardware compressor.

Arguments about software/hardware compressors aside, anything a hardware compressor can do re quiet/loud parts, so can a software compressor after the recording. You're not going to lose quality recording at a lower level, so it's not NECESSARY to use a hardware compressor.

The amount of work involved is the same. If you've got bad vocal technique, it doesn't matter whether it's hardware or software compression - yes it does take a lot of time!

One advantage of recording without compression is that after recording, you can split quiet verses/loud choruses onto different tracks, and adjust the threshold of the compressor for each track.

[ohmicide]

psp oldtimer has been seriously like MAGIC for me

sno need to worry about that's going on exactly, just what sounds good