things I think are bogus about mixing in Logic 8

[mixerguy]

I DONT want this thread to merely be "Logic is great" or "Logic is no good".... (there are plenty of those threads)

but... am I missing something?

As far as I can figure:

1) Panning a stereo track is wacked - if you pan left, it is simply turning down the right side, as opposed to moving the right signal into the center, then left.

Having to use the “Direction Mixer” plugin for true stereo panning is bogus!

2) In the group setups - why is there not a solo link (or not) option within a group! Bogus!

3) why are solo’s in different places (arrange window, mixer) not always linked? This is a PITA


YMMV

[mixerguy]

but... am I missing something?

[reid]

You're missing ProTools

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by reid

You're missing ProTools

ha ha ha haaa!!!!

awesome post!!!

[Kainer]

You are missing a modern state of the art sequencer.

try reaper

[Barbary Ape]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

1) Panning a stereo track is wacked - if you pan left, it is simply turning down the right side, as opposed to moving the right signal into the center, then left.

Having to use the “Direction Mixer” plugin for true stereo panning is bogus!

I though I was only one imagining this happening. I always thought there was something strange about the panning in Logic even when I adjusted the panning law it still didn't do it for me.

That's why I mostly just use the free Flux Stereo Tool plugin for panning on certain stereo channels without the widening effect just panning. Not sure exactly what the pan law of the Flux Stereo Tool is but I prefer it. Try it while panning hard on a stereo file on Logic and then on the Flux Stereo Tool, Logic really just turns down the other channel if you pan hard.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Barbary Ape

I though I was only one imagining this happening. I always thought there was something strange about the panning in Logic even when I adjusted the panning law it still didn't do it for me.

That's why I mostly just use the free Flux Stereo Tool plugin for panning on certain stereo channels without the widening effect just panning. Not sure exactly what the pan law of the Flux Stereo Tool is but I prefer it. Try it while panning hard on a stereo file on Logic and then on the Flux Stereo Tool, Logic really just turns down the other channel if you pan hard.

That's a balance control then, not a panner.

[Washington]

I can't comment your points #1 and 2, as only a developer could, and good luck at getting an answer from Apple (OK, I'll withdraw that - please stay quiet Sascha, let's not start again), but as to the solo and mute function being implemented in several different location, it's a great function. Here's the thing:

By default, the S and M buttons are the same whether in the arrange window or the mixer. But in the settings (or preference, don't remember) tab, you can set the ones on the mixer to behave as the standard mute and solo functions you'd have on a desk, while the ones in the arrange window would then apply to your "virtual multitrack recorder". I'ts particularly useful.

One example: you have gate on a rthm gtr track, triggered by the snare. If you mute the snare from the mixer, you won't hear it anymore but the sidechain input would still be fed from the snare track. If you mute the snare "recorder output" (that is, from the arrange window), your snare track is entirely disabled.

By the way... it's in the manual. HTH

[Barbary Ape]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

That's a balance control then, not a panner.

I might be wrong here, not sure what your referring to as a balance control the Flux or the Logic pan? But I think a balance control is what Logic actually has not a panner because when used on stereo files it never brings the left channel audio to the right and vice versa instead it just lowers the level of the opposite channel. The one in the Flux stereo tools is a true stereo panner that can shift right channel audio to the left but it also has a balance control.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Barbary Ape

I might be wrong here, not sure what your referring to as a balance control the Flux or the Logic pan? But I think a balance control is what Logic actually has not a panner because when used on stereo files it never brings the left channel audio to the right and vice versa instead it just lowers the level of the opposite channel. The one in the Flux stereo tools is a true stereo panner that can shift right channel audio to the left but it also has a balance control.

yes - that's what I'm commenting on - just grabbed the wrong quote..

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Barbary Ape

...... I think a balance control is what Logic actually has not a panner because when used on stereo files it never brings the left channel audio to the right and vice versa instead it just lowers the level of the opposite channel.........

I believe this to be correct.

Logic "panning" =

[Ashermusic]

Guys, in Logic Pro on a stereo track, the Pan knob is indeed a balance control. To have full control over stereo field placement, add the Imaging plug-in called the Direction Mixer.

[Blenn]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

Guys, in Logic Pro on a stereo track, the Pan knob is indeed a balance control. To have full control over stereo field placement, add the Imaging plug-in called the Direction Mixer.

I think that's why mixer guy is saying it's bogus. A pan knob is meant to pan. A Daw that has to insert a pluggin to pan is got to be wrong. Surely?

Paul

[theblue1]

You're missing ProTools

You are missing a modern state of the art sequencer.

try reaper

Having recently, fitfully followed another (rather epic -- but largely unproductive/uninformative/or perhaps 'misinformative') DAW discussion thread, it's my notion that comments like those above don't add anything to this type of discussion.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Blenn

I think that's why mixer guy is saying it's bogus. A pan knob is meant to pan. A Daw that has to insert a pluggin to pan is got to be wrong. Surely?

Paul

exactly!

example - if i have a stereo drum loop with a shaker on the hard right - I would expect the PAN knob to tuck the shaker into the center a bit when I pan the right side in a bit - JUST LIKE ON A CONSOLE!!!!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

exactly!

example - if i have a stereo drum loop with a shaker on the hard right - I would expect the PAN knob to tuck the shaker into the center a bit when I pan the right side in a bit - JUST LIKE ON A CONSOLE!!!!

Depends on the console. Modern consoles that have stereo channels may well have balance type 'pan' controls.

The behavior OP seems to be looking for may well best replicated by having a pan control and a volume control on each of your channels intended as a stereo pair -- just like an 'old fashioned' analog mixer paradigm where you have a desk full of mono channels, each with their own pan and volume faders.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Depends on the console. Modern consoles that have stereo channels may well have balance type 'pan' controls.

...

I was thinking of most consoles - mono faders - you patch into two.... and the pans work as you would expect.

Just like in many other DAWS

Logic 8 seems to be the 'odd man out' so to speak.

I myself would NEVER want the pan to merely make one side quieter... (as Logic does) - I want it to PAN the signal!!!!

[theblue1]

Yeah, I hear you. I would actually prefer both. (I actually thought I posted about this earlier but I don't see it. Believe it or not, I actually edit and chop stuff out of my rambling, discursive posts. Imagine.)

If it's any consolation (and it may be marginal consolation, at that), the version of Sonar I use (two versions back on SP6, from 2006) has the same balance-type control on stereo tracks. (I think they may have given some more options subsequently, but not sure, at all.) There are six different pan law variations -- but it's not quite the same thing, of course.

My memory's hazy about how CW/Sonar introduced stereo channels. I'm not sure but I feel like I remember a version or two that had pans for each channel. But a pan without a balance control/level for each channel is also problematic. At some point, when the current system came into place, I remember I was simultaneously relieved and disappointed when they ended up with a balance-type control instead. I would want some form of both: control the level of each side and its pan location.

I either split a track into two monos (and use bus effects where stereo effects are appropriate) or use something like the (free) Moneo plug [may be Win-only but there are others] which allows you to control pan and balance separately (using a 2 dimensional graphic interface); with the plug, you can follow-on with stereo fx in the track insert.

[synthoid]

I don't know why they don't fix this (panning), but one reason I can imagine is that it would change (radically sometimes) the sound of mixes that were done in earlier versions of Logic. In particular, for hard panned stereo sounds that don't have much channel correlation, it would make the track output twice as loud! It's the kind of thing that you sort of need to get right at the beginning, haha.

-synthoid

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I don't know why they don't fix this (panning), but one reason I can imagine is that it would change (radically sometimes) the sound of mixes that were done in earlier versions of Logic. In particular, for hard panned stereo sounds that don't have much channel correlation, it would make the track output twice as loud! It's the kind of thing that you sort of need to get right at the beginning, haha.

-synthoid

true, true!

[reid]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Having recently, fitfully followed another (rather epic -- but largely unproductive/uninformative/or perhaps 'misinformative') DAW discussion thread, it's my notion that comments like those above don't add anything to this type of discussion.

Notionally, they add humour - albeit in a fitful, subjective manner. But the OP got a laugh out of it, so one might argue that no lasting damage was done to the health of the thread.

Given your civic minded attitude to the addition of posts that are not wholly relevant to threads, one can't help but ask - what did your post add to the quality of discourse on offer here?

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by reid

Notionally, they add humour - albeit in a fitful, subjective manner. But the OP got a laugh out of it, so one might argue that no lasting damage was done to the health of the thread.

Given your civic minded attitude to the addition of posts that are not wholly relevant to threads, one can't help but ask - what did your post add to the quality of discourse on offer here?

Good point and question.

I hope my offering the fact that Logic is not the only major DAW to use* such a 'panning' arrangement mitigated my intrusion.

I shall now withdraw.





[*Or, rather, to have used, I saw just now that the DAW I cited has since added a width control to panning.]

[tobymusic]

Here's some more:

* Fader gain up to +12dB instead of only +6 the way it is right now. +6dB is not enough.
* get rid of that dangerous "master level" fader they even brought to the front on Logic 8, right next to the transport buttons. Do a nice mix into a 2bus comp and then mess with this fader!!!!?!?!?
A better substitute would be a gain pot on the input of every audio track, before hitting the first plug-in in the chain - and have the setting visible without having to open a plug-in.
* I can't import the DirectTDM audio config onto the CoreAudio side when moving a Logic song from an older system that used DirectTDM/DAE. I should be possible to do that, but it isn't any more, since they dumped the old audio config window. Too bad.
* Many, many, many users need to be able to open Logic 8 songs in Logic 7. Before Logic 8, that has never been a problem. Why now?

I can think of dozens more, maybe I'll post them later.

[theblue1]

At the risk of getting an assist on my way out the door, I just thought I'd note, in light of the post immediately above, that there are certain, very real logistical reasons why a previous version of a DAW might not be able to open a project created in a newer, and substantially overhauled version of the program.

This is not limited to DAWs, of course. It's rare to see an older version patched to allow it to work with new formats but there are times when the new version of the application might offer a backwards compatability mode -- still, there are times when that's simply not practical, either, as when the changes are deep/fundamental.

OK... now that I've stuck up for Apple once again... I'm really outta here.

[rogerbrain]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

exactly!

example - if i have a stereo drum loop with a shaker on the hard right - I would expect the PAN knob to tuck the shaker into the center a bit when I pan the right side in a bit - JUST LIKE ON A CONSOLE!!!!

nice console to have stereo inputs...hey wait ..I have one of those and it is a BALNACE control for the stereo inputs ...hmmm what plug in can I use on my CONSOLE to pan stereo inputs...lets see I can use 2 channels and do it... but I have to get my fat arse out of my comfy chair to do that... plug are soooo difficult..

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by Blenn

I think that's why mixer guy is saying it's bogus. A pan knob is meant to pan. A Daw that has to insert a pluggin to pan is got to be wrong. Surely?

Paul

Not wrong, just different.

As someone pointed out, not all consoles treat stereo the same way in regards to panning.

But would I prefer stereo track panning In Logic to default to being like mono track panning? Sure.

[audiopablo]

Partial threadjack:

What other DAWs have a balance type panner? Does Pro Tools do true panning because it splits the stereo track to two mono files? I always thought this was annoying, but it makes sense if that's the reason. That said, if other DAWs do it in a balancing manner, I've never had an issue (but who knows?!!!!???!?!)

[sodium glow]

Originally Posted by audiopablo

Partial threadjack:

What other DAWs have a balance type panner? Does Pro Tools do true panning because it splits the stereo track to two mono files? I always thought this was annoying, but it makes sense if that's the reason. That said, if other DAWs do it in a balancing manner, I've never had an issue (but who knows?!!!!???!?!)

Nuendo has 3 types

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by sodium glow

Nuendo has 3 types

Those options seem like they should cover anything you might want to do -- I guess. The default is the same type of balance control that Logic, Sonar, and others use, or default to (in the case of Sonar 7 and 8 which also offer the aforementioned 'width' control as an option, too).

The two separate pans option seems like you'd also have to have a way of controlling the relative level of the channels, though. (Sonar's combination of conventional stereo balance and width controls covers those permutations, as I get it.)

And I wasn't completely clear about the third option -- but I suspect it addresses the relative level issue I mention above. I guess.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by tobymusic

Here's some more:

* Fader gain up to +12dB instead of only +6 the way it is right now. +6dB is not enough........

this is especially true