things I think are bogus about mixing in Logic 8

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by synthoid

There's a lot of different kinds of bogus in the world. The kind where you know perfectly well that this mode is important and it's in your flagship product but you left it out of your entry-level product just to create an artificial distinction that has nothing to do with TDM, that's shitty. The kind of bogus where it never occurred to you because you don't actually, you know, use the product you make or talk to people who do, that's dopey.

Dopey and shitty. Two flavors of bogus for your teeth-grinding pleasure.

-synthoid

I couldn't agree more. When I pointed this type of thing out, someone up here politely reminded me that PT LE was an "ENTRY LEVEL PRODUCT."

To me, it is an insult to HD that HD is not good enough on it's own to have LE and HD software have the exact same features. If HD is so much better, the DSP cards and their interfaces should speak for themselves, not hokey crippling of features in LE. It's as silly as charging for the "MP3 Option." Yikes. (and yes I use and love PT).

TH

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I have spent years having trim fader automation available to me - on various consoles and DAWs - and to me it is a very valuable tool for occasional use.

The big advantage is that you can have complicated fader moves on one (or a group of many tracks) and if you want to make a few quick changes to existing automation - only in a few spots.... fader trim automation (set to touch, or even latch) can be a very fast way to make changes.

The nice thing about it is that there is (usually) only one trim 'path' so you can easily do the trim a few times to get it right (lead vocals especially) and then merge the trim into the normal automation stream. This is WAY faster and more intuitive than mousing around with level markers..... especially as you are LISTENING as you ride the levels.

Ashermusic (Jay) - in reading back thru your recent posts... I honestly don't think you understand the mode I am talking about. It is NOT a line trim, a trim plugin, or similar.

Exactly my point. If you have to do it that way you can. Just write automation on a plugin fader (Sonalksis Free G is great with a nice big fader and everything)If it accomplishes the same thing what's the problem. Hell most of the time in PT I leave the faders at unity and mix levels with hi res plugins. In Logic there are a million....make that 2 million ways to skin a cat.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by JPZ

Exactly my point. If you have to do it that way you can. Just write automation on a plugin fader (Sonalksis Free G is great with a nice big fader and everything)If it accomplishes the same thing what's the problem.......

Well - you asked 'what is the problem' so ...... i'll explain.

Having a trim automation mode on a fader is NOT the same as automating a plugin.... for a couple of reasons:

1) I can turn on a group of 48 audio tracks and throw them all into trim to make tweaks to existing automation without blasting over existing moves. (merely adding or subtracting a bit - only when touching the fader) Then I can turn off that 48 track group, turn on a different smaller group of faders, and further trim the existing automation (without over-writing the existing automation..... just trimming it + / - by varying amounts.) Try doing that with trim plugins... that would be very awkward.

2) for precise lead vocal rides..... and level touch ups - nothing (in my opinion) beats fader trim automation

3) once you merge the trim data - you can SEE the new fader automation data. It all lives in one place. You can then trim more if need be. Having automation on both faders and automated plugins would be really awkward, in my opinion.

[JPZ]

Honest to God dude I think you're being a little ridiculous with the trim automation. I guess I don't view my automation as so precious that I can't just trim it on a grouped fader or something or just draw the trim in to get it how I want it. Also on a trim for 48 tracks what are the odds that a global trim would get what you want since a mix that big is gonna change relatively once levels start changing. I just wouldn't do that I guess. Also too, call me lazy but if I have big subgroups like that I would just make stems to make global stuff more manageable. You know the Free g is a nice big fader. Perfect for ultra tweaker. And I assume you knew you can see multiple lanes of automation all at once in Logic

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I have spent years having trim fader automation available to me - on various consoles and DAWs - and to me it is a very valuable tool for occasional use.

The big advantage is that you can have complicated fader moves on one (or a group of many tracks) and if you want to make a few quick changes to existing automation - only in a few spots.... fader trim automation (set to touch, or even latch) can be a very fast way to make changes.

The nice thing about it is that there is (usually) only one trim 'path' so you can easily do the trim a few times to get it right (lead vocals especially) and then merge the trim into the normal automation stream. This is WAY faster and more intuitive than mousing around with level markers..... especially as you are LISTENING as you ride the levels.

Ashermusic (Jay) - in reading back thru your recent posts... I honestly don't think you understand the mode I am talking about. It is NOT a line trim, a trim plugin, or similar.

No, I get it and you are right that Logic does not have it the way you are used to, but I can achieve the same end result in real time either by inserting a gain plug-in and adjusting it is in real time, or command-moving the automation fader (yellow dotted) that I mentioned.

You are right it is not the same, it requires a different work flow, maybe even an inferior work flow if that is how you perceive it, but IMHO, not a bogus one.

I can only tell you that two pretty well known engineers whose names I could but will not drop, were using both PT and Logic for mixing and eventually sold their HD rigs because they were enjoying mixing in Logic more. So clearly, it can be compensated for as this is a common engineering task.

That said, PT has a lot of advantages for mixers that aw on my wishlist and the trim feature is indeed one IMHO. I just thing bogus is abit extreme but maybe we just use the term differently.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

OTOH, Trim exists as a dedicated button on Logic Control, so there must have been some plans about implementing a traditional, fader controlled Trim function.

Yeah, quite a shame. Apparently there were plans to implement some trimming function back in the days of version 5. Just that they never materialized for whatever stupid reasons. I mean, adding another gain control (which basically is what a trim control would be doing) should be a piece of cake for any programmer.

I'm not sure whether I'd use any such a control the way mixerguy might do, but he's completely right in what he's saying and asking for something such as this is a very valid request. Having to deal with whatever plugins to compensate for this lack is simply not elegant at all, no matter how you put it.

- Sascha

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Well - you asked 'what is the problem' so ...... i'll explain.

Aren't you kind of splitting hairs? It's a feature that would be nice for some, in some rare and not so rare occasions. But it you take a real world example of a recent mix of yours, where you wanted to trim as you've explained, if adopting 1 of the several solutions suggested above, couldn't you have "completed that task" in a equally musical and artistic fashion?

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

Aren't you kind of splitting hairs? It's a feature that would be nice for some, in some rare and not so rare occasions.

Actually, he isn't. This will surprise some of you since I have been arguing with Mixer Guy this whole thread, but while we seem to disagree on how it would be best be implemented and how usable what is already in Logic is, a real trim that is easy and direct, as well as stereo panning on stereo tracks that does not require a plug-in, are two very long standing, frequently requested, and IMHO worthy features by those of us who have been using Logic a long time. As I said, however, in an earlier post, ALL DAWS have requested improvements that many users would like.

My quarrel was not with the requested features themselves but with the idea that Logic was "bogus" for mixing rather than just "here are some things I hope they add in an update."

I guess you can view every app (and every user) as the doughnut or as the hole, and I choose the doughnut.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

No, I get it and you are right that Logic does not have it the way you are used to, but I can achieve the same end result in real time either by inserting a gain plug-in and adjusting it is in real time, or command-moving the automation fader (yellow dotted) that I mentioned.

I've done both of these things (no choice, really). The first one is a pain because when you come back to a project later, you have the automation that controls the overall output level for a track in two different lanes, and you have to add them mentally to figure out what is going on. The second method is not real-time.

If you think this is a very esoteric feature -- making incremental touch-ups to fader automation in real-time -- it says to me that you probably haven't seen a really fast PT engineer doing this kind of thing with a control surface (fader). They aren't looking at anything or thinking about dB increments or anything like that, they are playing the audio and listening in real-time to the volume automation as they correct it. It's a very fast way to work that incorporates both the change to the automation and the listening / checking part in a single step (what you hear is what you get). And it leaves you with a single set of automation nodes in a single lane right where they should be.

-synthoid

[JPZ]

Stop.....Please. This isn't brain surgery as much as we'd all like it to be considered as such. Yeah, all DAW's are missing stuff. When I'm in PT I really wish I had Logic stuff available and vice versa but trim automation as a deal breaker? I don't think so. I've been using PT since the 442 days. given Digi alot of cash and when Logic can do a comparable job for way way way less and it's easier to mix on (something just sounds better to me and mixes fall together much easier - I know all you null out the audio guys will poo poo this) then hats off to Logic or any DAW that can knock Digi off it's arrogant perch.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by JPZ

Stop.....Please. This isn't brain surgery as much as we'd all like it to be considered as such.

C'mon, relax. Talking about what features are good and bad in various DAWs isn't going to take anyone's birthday away or do any harm, and who knows, maybe some developers will read some of this stuff and improve their software.

-synthoid

[Johns]

If you had fader trim available, you would understand what Mixerguy is talking about. I mix through a Yamaha 02R96 and use fader trim mode all the time. It is quick and the most musical way (imo) to trim automation. We have reached an age when making mix moves while not LISTENING to the audio is normal (of line editing). Mixerguy is old school and wants to actually listen while trimming.

If I was mixing in logic, I would love this feature. Of course, there are a few ways around it so it's all good.

[Ashermusic]

[QUOTE=synthoid;4346921
If you think this is a very esoteric feature --
-synthoid[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this was directed at me, but since you quoted me I will say that if you read my last post, clearly I do not think it is an esoteric feature.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

I don't know if this was directed at me, but since you quoted me I will say that if you read my last post, clearly I do not think it is an esoteric feature.

Right, that's clear from what you wrote. No, I was quoting you in order to comment on the two workarounds you proposed. I should have been a little clearer.

-synthoid

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by synthoid

Right, that's clear from what you wrote. No, I was quoting you in order to comment on the two workarounds you proposed. I should have been a little clearer.

-synthoid

Clarity is good

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Johns

If you had fader trim available, you would understand what Mixerguy is talking about. I mix through a Yamaha 02R96 and use fader trim mode all the time. It is quick and the most musical way (imo) to trim automation. We have reached an age when making mix moves while not LISTENING to the audio is normal (of line editing). Mixerguy is old school and wants to actually listen while trimming......

YES! EXACTLY!

thank you

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

YES! EXACTLY!

thank you

Does that mean because I still have my Ampex and MCI 2" machines I can be "old school" too?

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by JPZ

Does that mean because I still have my Ampex and MCI 2" machines I can be "old school" too?

oh yeah!

[The MPCist]

Man, you guys are arguing over different things! TRIM. Seems that the Logic guys just either won't admit that it's not possible in Logic or just don't get the concept.

There are workarounds, yes... mouse it, etc but for me, when I have my automation the way I want it, at times I just want to change the 'overall' volume and this is where TRIM comes in handy. I don't see how I would work without it. PT has it. Logic obviously doesn't.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Man, you guys are arguing over different things! TRIM. Seems that the Logic guys just either won't admit that it's not possible in Logic or just don't get the concept.

There are workarounds, yes... mouse it, etc but for me, when I have my automation the way I want it, at times I just want to change the 'overall' volume and this is where TRIM comes in handy. I don't see how I would work without it. PT has it. Logic obviously doesn't.

I see. So when I wrote the following you concluded that I won't admit it or didn't get it:

"This will surprise some of you since I have been arguing with Mixer Guy this whole thread, but while we seem to disagree on how it would be best be implemented and how usable what is already in Logic is, a real trim that is easy and direct, as well as stereo panning on stereo tracks that does not require a plug-in, are two very long standing, frequently requested, and IMHO worthy features by those of us who have been using Logic a long time."

Interesting conclusion.And once again, the way you work without it in Logic is to insert a Gain plug-in. I would prefer a trim, but this works.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Man, you guys are arguing over different things! TRIM. Seems that the Logic guys just either won't admit that it's not possible in Logic or just don't get the concept.

There are workarounds, yes... mouse it, etc but for me, when I have my automation the way I want it, at times I just want to change the 'overall' volume and this is where TRIM comes in handy. I don't see how I would work without it. PT has it. Logic obviously doesn't.

Mixerguy want's fader trim , Logic has multiple ways to trim but are not fader trim , to say it hasn't got it is just not right ...

[peter_martin]

i mean a couple guys spent three pages b*tchin' about fade trims when there is only 127 steps on the actual volume fader.

its like the democrat vs republican argument, totally pointless.


that's my biggest gripe on logic, and find it more insane than the ****s. but i still get work done that sounds pretty good most times, and lots of people do too.

[reid]

As far as I remember, if your using fader automation in Logic (and you'd be insane not to if you're riding levels throughout the mix) then the resolution is not governed by MIDI protocol, and you get a far greater number of steps than 127.

Don't have the manual to hand to check - maybe someone can confirm?

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by reid

As far as I remember, if your using fader automation in Logic (and you'd be insane not to if you're riding levels throughout the mix) then the resolution is not governed by MIDI protocol, and you get a far greater number of steps than 127.

True.

- Sascha

[MatzeMillion]

My wishes for Logic 8.1:

1) A fast and easy way to align regions. Something like the ctrl-drag feature in PT. Or did I miss something?

2) Show automation only for ONE track. I know it is possible but imho way too complicated.

3) Jump to the next edit or transient (like TAB in PT)

4) a consistent "apply to all"-modifier like "alt" in PT.

5) Move a region to a specific position by entering a value (bar/beat, smpte). I know, I can press #, enter a position and then press shift+# but that moves the timeline and is one action more.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by MatzeMillion

1) A fast and easy way to align regions. Something like the ctrl-drag feature in PT. Or did I miss something?

Have you tried "Set Region/Event/Marquee Start to Playhead Position" and "Set Region/Event/Marquee End to Playhead Position"?

You can also use Shift while altering regions' end points, and the end points will all be aligned. It would have been nice if this worked for MIDI event/audio region start positions as well.

2) Show automation only for ONE track. I know it is possible but imho way too complicated.

I always only make the track taller (by dragging it's lower left edge downwards) and then press A - but this doesn't work if all the tracks already are tall.

3) Jump to the next edit or transient (like TAB in PT)

Already there, I guess - but with different (and IMO too long) names:

⇧← •Toggle Previous Region/Event, or Set Marquee Start to Previous Transient
⇧→ •Toggle Next Region/Event, or Set Marquee Start to Next Transient
← •Select Previous Region/Event, or Set Marquee End to Previous Transient
→ •Select Next Region/Event, or Set Marquee End to Next Transient

Unfortunately, you have to manually enable a (one pixel wide) Marquee selection for these key commands to have any effect.

4) a consistent "apply to all"-modifier like "alt" in PT.

What exactly does the Alt modifier do in PT?

5) Move a region to a specific position by entering a value (bar/beat, smpte). I know, I can press #, enter a position and then press shift+# but that moves the timeline and is one action more.

I don't know what # does, but why not just press ⌥E ("Toggle Event Float") and enter the destination position? Or do I miss something?

[MatzeMillion]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Have you tried "Set Region/Event/Marquee Start to Playhead Position" and "Set Region/Event/Marquee End to Playhead Position"?

That only extends the region/marquee to the playhead but "Pickup Clock" does the trick and moves the region. But if I want to align 10 regions, I have to select them one by one and apply the key-command. In PT I only have to select the first region and then ctrl-click each region I want to align. That works even if I ctrl-drag a new region into the arrangement. (if I remember correct)

You can also use Shift while altering regions' end points, and the end points will all be aligned. It would have been nice if this worked for MIDI event/audio region start positions as well.

Nice one and yes, that would be nice.

I always only make the track taller (by dragging it's lower left edge downwards) and then press A - but this doesn't work if all the tracks already are tall.

That is a cool trick but I dont get why Logic by default shows the automation for tracks that don't use it. When in automation mode I sometimes click in a track by accident (while zooming). Then I draw an automation node, enable automation and the volume of the track jumps somewhere. And if I try to undo that, the volume remains changed and I have to disable automation manually.

Already there, I guess - but with different (and IMO too long) names:

⇧← •Toggle Previous Region/Event, or Set Marquee Start to Previous Transient
⇧→ •Toggle Next Region/Event, or Set Marquee Start to Next Transient
← •Select Previous Region/Event, or Set Marquee End to Previous Transient
→ •Select Next Region/Event, or Set Marquee End to Next Transient

Unfortunately, you have to manually enable a (one pixel wide) Marquee selection for these key commands to have any effect.

I know these commands but imho they are pretty useless. In most cases it is a lot faster to make selections/marquees with the mouse. What I would like to have is a command to move the playhead to the next/previous edit. and it would be very nice if the view would center around the playhead. I really liked that in ProTools. You roughly cut an audiofile by ear while playing it back, then zoom in and tab to the cuts to clean the edits. Very fast! If I use the key commands you mentioned in Logic while beeing zoomed in, I only make blind selections and If I try to jump with the playhead to the beginning of the selection (shift-return), the view is completely not centered.

What exactly does the Alt modifier do in PT?

It depends on the context but in many cases you can use it to apply something to all tracks. A little bit like the command key in Logic. If you solo a track with the command key, all tracks are soloed. But if you try to change the view in automation mode for all tracks at once it is not working. why?

I don't know what # does, but why not just press ⌥E ("Toggle Event Float") and enter the destination position? Or do I miss something?

[/QUOTE]

I missed that one completely! Thanks!! (# in the german keyboard layout let you enter a destination position for the playhead and Shift-# moves a region to the playhead.)

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by MatzeMillion

But if I want to align 10 regions, I have to select them one by one and apply the key-command.

Ah - I see. The way to do this on Logic is to press E (Open the Event list), and alter (drag) the start point of the regions while holding Alt + Shift. That should give all the selected regions the same start point... but I just checked this, and think I found a bug in Logic 8: this procedure aligns the start point of all the regions, but places them at position 1111. In Logic 7 this still works as expected. So you need to enter the correct value after they have been aligned.

On another note, if you simply want to align a number of region start points to the grid (for regions that are almost placed where they should be), you can always just quantize the region positions (again, in the event list) to eg. 1/1-notes.

That is a cool trick but I dont get why Logic by default shows the automation for tracks that don't use it.

Probably because people often enable Automation View when they want to enter automation nodes in a track that doesn't have any automation yet?

What I would like to have is a command to move the playhead to the next/previous edit.

To the next transient, you mean? That would be a key commands that makes sense...

Re. general zooming, Logic also zooms in around the playhead, but only if no regions are selected. If a region is selected, it zooms in around the region start.

But if you try to change the view in automation mode for all tracks at once it is not working. why?

Not sure what you mean with 'the view in automation mode', but if you hold Shift while changing from seeing eg. Volume to Pan, it will shift that view for all tracks.

Of course there are things PT can that Logic can't, and vice versa, but in some cases things are simply done in a different way.

[peter_martin]

Originally Posted by reid

As far as I remember, if your using fader automation in Logic (and you'd be insane not to if you're riding levels throughout the mix) then the resolution is not governed by MIDI protocol, and you get a far greater number of steps than 127.

Don't have the manual to hand to check - maybe someone can confirm?

Well when setting basic levels on the CH mixer lets say it goes from -10.8 and the next step is -11.3, -12.5. Its even worse the lower the values. IE from -18.5 goes to -20.1. Thats insaine to me when getting a ball park mix that the CH mixer jumps sometimes a full one to two DBs. That was my only gripe, have the mixer be fluid from 0 db all the way down to -30 db(??) like cubase

[synthoid]

Another very bogus thing about editing in Logic is that copy and paste on audio regions ignores the "Drag:" mode (e.g., no overlap). When you paste a small audio region (using command-V) on top of a larger region, then click on the larger region before or after the smaller one, the small region disappears behind the big one but it still sounds when the playhead passes over it because of the "latest starting region has priority" rule. That is such a pain in the butt. After all this time I have still not figured out a reliable way to get the small region to appear again so that it can be deleted, haha. If you use the "eliminate overlap" command it seems to wipe out audio after the small region within the big region. It's very well thought out.

Dragging (or option-dragging) regions around doesn't have this problem.

-synthoid