things I think are bogus about mixing in Logic 8

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

1. Not if you set the Preference properly. Go to Preferences > Audio > General and where it reads Track Mute/Solo, set it to Faster (Remote Channel Strips and muting in the Arrange or the Mixer will mute the Channel Strip itself and therefore all tracks going to it. The setting CPU=saving (Slow Response) allows them to be independent of each other, which is what I prefer personally.

....

OK i think you are wrong.

I just checked - the setting IS set to FAST.

as I said:

Apple mute in arrange window is different than in mixer.

Apple mute in arrange window mutes ALL tracks

Apple mute in Mixer mutes THAT track.

this is bogus.






one more thing - can I zoom into the waveform display more than one level? I have some VERY quiet stuff recorded - and I want to see where things happen...... onelevel isnt enough.....

[mixerguy]

one more thing - no TRIM (existing) fader automation in real time, from touching the fader.

Yes - I want this. This is a basic automation feature.....

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

OK i think you are wrong.

I just checked - the setting IS set to FAST.

as I said:

Apple mute in arrange window is different than in mixer.

Apple mute in arrange window mutes ALL tracks

Apple mute in Mixer mutes THAT track.

this is bogus.






one more thing - can I zoom into the waveform display more than one level? I have some VERY quiet stuff recorded - and I want to see where things happen...... onelevel isnt enough.....

OK, let's try this again. First of all , you do not use the Apple (Command) key for muting/soloing because this indeed cause the behavior you are talking about.

With the Preference set to CPU-saving:

I have 2 regions on 2 tracks going through the same channel strip. If I mute or solo it in the Mixer, they both reflect that and I hear neither one. If I mute/ solo 1 of them in the Arrange window, only that track, not the channel strip, is muted/soloed.

Which is what I prefer.

With the Preference set to Faster:

I have 2 regions on 2 tracks going through the same channel strip. If I mute or solo it in the Mixer, they both reflect that and I hear neither one. If I mute/solo 1 of them in the Arrange window, the whole channel strip is muted/soloed also, so the behavior in the Mixer or in the Arrange window is the same.

If it is not behaving this way on your rig, then your Preferences are corrupted and you need to trash them.

And of course you can zoom in more than one level in th Sample Editor
Either keep swiping the area of the sample you wish to zoom in on repeatedly with the Zoom Tool,(Command clicking with the pointer returns its zoom level back 1 step at a time) or hold the Command key and use the up/down or right/left arrows.

If it is not behaving this way on your rig, then your Preferences are corrupted and you need to trash them.

You can call it bogus if you like, but what it really is is just different from what you are used to and you simply do not know it well enough. I give training sesssions on Logic to PT guys a lot and after a couple of hours with me, it is amazing how much better their opinion of Logic becomes.

Maybe I need to write another book, "Logic Pro 8 for the ProTools User."

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

one more thing - no TRIM (existing) fader automation in real time, from touching the fader.

Yes - I want this. This is a basic automation feature.....

(sigh) Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation OR, open an Automation Event List and raise/lower it there OR add a Gain plug-in and raise/lower the playback level.

Is it a proper trim like a console as I would also like? No, but these methods do work.

OK, I have helped you all I am going to do for free now. For more, pay me or someone like me or RTM.

[submodern]

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

For dealing with true (correlated) stereo sources the direction mixer is inherently superior. It would be nice if there were an option to have this replace the balance control on stereo channels.

Yes! What I hate about using Direction Mixer is that since it's a plugin you can't tweak it after you've frozen a track. I've got an older UAD card and an addiction to the more computationally expensive plugins, so by the end of a mix almost every track ends up frozen, and making little adjustments with Direction Mixer on each track becomes a tedious exercise in unfreezing, tweaking and refreezing whereas the built-in pan and send controls can still be adjusted post-freeze.

[nativeaudio]

(sigh) Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation

Knowing that a lot of Logic users are not aware of this feature, maybe Apple should consider making it's existence less obscure. eg. by adding the same behavior to the fader in the Channel Strip (with a modifier). I assume more people will look at the main Channel Strip fader than the little yellow one if they need this function.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Knowing that a lot of Logic users are not aware of this feature, maybe Apple should consider making it's existence less obscure. eg. by adding the same behavior to the fader in the Channel Strip (with a modifier). I assume more people will look at the main Channel Strip fader than the little yellow one if they need this function.

Understood and agreed, but at the same time if one can not figure out how to do it, simply perusing the chapter in the manual on Working with Automation, one would quickly discover the following on page 592:

"Editing Automation Data With the Track Header’s Value Displays
Command-clicking on either the value fader or numerical value display in the track list with the Pointer allows the following:
Command-click selects all (current parameter) automation data of
the track.
Command-dragging scales all (current parameter) automation data
of the track."

The manual exists for a reason. This is a deep application. I am no genius. I know what I know about Logic because I put in a lot of time and effort.

I got a PM from a guy asking me if I thought it was nice to humiliate people who don't know Logic well and if I treat students that way. He said not only had he not read Logic's manual but he never read the one for his primary application because it is not the way he learns best. I told him that it certainly was not my intention to humiliate anyone but a good teacher tells his students certain things that are empirically true, such as;

There are a number of good ways to learn a deep app like Logic:
1. Read the manual or other 3rd party books and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
2. Buy some video tutorials and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
3. View the many free online tutorials to learn specific tasks and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
4. Hire a guy like me to show you specifically what you want to know immediately and learn the rest as you by repeatedly trying what you discover until you get it.

The following are NOT good ways to learn a deep app like Logic:
1. Plunge in in a scattershot method and trust much of it to be obvious and intuitive.
2.Plunge in and start working the way you already work in a different app and if it does not work the same way, immediately judge it to be wrong or deficient because it works differently.

I TRULY do not wish to offend anyone or make anyone feel badly. I come here to help, but sometimes the most helpful thing one can do is to tell the truth as you see it.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by tobymusic

* I can't import the DirectTDM audio config onto the CoreAudio side when moving a Logic song from an older system that used DirectTDM/DAE. I should be possible to do that, but it isn't any more, since they dumped the old audio config window. Too bad.

The option to copy an audio configuration is still there once you open the mixer. I'm not sure how well it works these days (I'm using Core Audio configurations only), but have you tried it?

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

(sigh) Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation OR, open an Automation Event List and raise/lower it there OR add a Gain plug-in and raise/lower the playback level.

Is it a proper trim like a console as I would also like? No, but these methods do work.

I do of course know how these things work, but wouldn't there be several scenarios to have this implemented any better? Certainly!
I think the entire automation paradigm (and don't get me wrong, that's also true for most other sequencers) could pretty well do with some radical improvements. For instance, when it comes to automating volumes (which I think is what most people use automation for 95% of the time), the volume faders could simply be switcheable between some "automation" and "overall" status. That way one wouldn't lose overall level control as soon as some automation data is present. Compare it to something such as MIDI CC 11, which in many hardware synths is routed to "relative channel volume", without compromising CC 7 (overall channel volume).
Back in the Windows days, I had some very friendly programmer coding me a gain plugin working exactly like Logics faders (scaling was the same), so I've been doing all my volume automations using that very plugin, hence keeping my main channel faders free for overall volume control. Quite a lot better than doing it the other way round (i.e. as in inserting a gainer plugin to adjust the channel level).
And when you think about it, coming up with a clever solution for this should be peanuts for any programmers worth their salt - just that it's not happening (and as said, many a DAW suffers from the same or similar problem).

Regarding the panning issue, it could be done similar (the Nuendo option has already been posted). Just make the pan knob behaviour switcheable between "pan" and "balance" and there we go.

And as another idea for improvements of mixer channels in any DAW: I wish there were parallel inserts available. Yes, I obviously do know about bus/aux/group routings, but sometimes it's just not comfortable at all, especially with those "left hand channel strips" that we have in about any DAW these days (busses and auxes usually require to open the mixer). Parallel inserts can be useful in a lot of situations.
For instance, I'm a guitar player and I often want to have different cab/mic IRs on one single track to run them parallely and mix them. As is, I usually make a copy of the very channel, then change the IR on one of them. Not all too bad but in case I'm using a complexed software amp sim setup, things are getting quite CPU heavy pretty fast. As is, to avoid this, I need to set up a rather uncomfortable to deal with bus/aux routing.
This would also be desireable for things such as parallel compression.
Of course, with DAWs as we know them, most of them still borrowing their mixer layouts from the hardware world, this would mean quite some change of the look, but why not? After all, I think it's time that software takes advance of being just that: Software that is. Theoretically, anything should be possible. But it still isn't, on many accounts.

- Sascha

[nativeaudio]

The manual exists for a reason. This is a deep application.

Sure. But sooner or later "all" DAWs will be able to do "everything"; so whichever DAW that does what you want it to do without needing to look up some page in the manual (let alone figure out which page to look for, or what that feature is called in that particular DAW) will be seen as more user friendly. The amount of steps and manual reading it takes to get something done actually matters - a lot, and this won't change. One will simply Get More Work Done if the steps involved are fewer, simpler and more in-your-face.

It doesn't help much if Logic can do everything, if it appears to the average users (who normally don't read manuals) that features they are looking for are missing.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

There are a number of good ways to learn a deep app like Logic:
1. Read the manual or other 3rd party books and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
2. Buy some video tutorials and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
3. View the many free online tutorials to learn specific tasks and repeatedly try what you discover until you get it.
4. Hire a guy like me to show you specifically what you want to know immediately and learn the rest as you by repeatedly trying what you discover until you get it.

This goes of course for all apps. There are so many "hidden" things to discover!

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

(1) First of all , you do not use the Apple (Command) key for muting/soloing because this indeed cause the behavior you are talking about.....

(2) .......And of course you can zoom in more than one level in th Sample Editor....

Sorry - but you misunderstood me in both cases.

1) It is my opinion that soloing in Logic sucks when using the routing that I desire..... Thus I use the key command in the arrange window Apple click (on a mute) to mute all tracks.... then I unmute the track I want to hear. My complaint is why does this same key command do the same thing in the mix window?

2) I didn't mean (or mention) the sample editor... I meant (and said) the actual waveform display. I can only seemingly toggle between two levels of waveform zoom when looking at audio regions..... I want more levels of making the waveforms more zoomed it, fatter, and bigger.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

(sigh) Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation OR, open an Automation Event List and raise/lower it there OR add a Gain plug-in and raise/lower the playback level........

Well Jay... I'm going to (sigh) right back at you.... as for a guy who is a "Certified Trainer" I dont think you understand fader automation completely.



The fader automation modes are as follows:
OFF
READ
TOUCH
LATCH
WRITE

I want a mode called TRIM where it reads the automation you have already written to the fader, and the fader becomes a + / - and you TRIM existing levels (in real time) with your fader moves. ProTools HD has this. Good automated mixing consoles have this. From what I can find... Logic 8 does not.

What you mentioned: Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation


is NOT the same thing. I just tried it here.

It needs to be a mode that is easily selected with the other automation modes. This is bogus in my opinion.




FWIIW ProTools LE is also missing this mode..... totally bogus.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

FWIIW ProTools LE is also missing this mode..... totally bogus.

There's a lot of different kinds of bogus in the world. The kind where you know perfectly well that this mode is important and it's in your flagship product but you left it out of your entry-level product just to create an artificial distinction that has nothing to do with TDM, that's shitty. The kind of bogus where it never occurred to you because you don't actually, you know, use the product you make or talk to people who do, that's dopey.

Dopey and shitty. Two flavors of bogus for your teeth-grinding pleasure.

-synthoid

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Well Jay... I'm going to (sigh) right back at you.... as for a guy who is a "Certified Trainer" I dont think you understand fader automation completely.



The fader automation modes are as follows:
OFF
READ
TOUCH
LATCH
WRITE

I want a mode called TRIM where it reads the automation you have already written to the fader, and the fader becomes a + / - and you TRIM existing levels (in real time) with your fader moves. ProTools HD has this. Good automated mixing consoles have this. From what I can find... Logic 8 does not.

What you mentioned: Hold the Command key and either pull up or down on the yellow dotted fader in the trak header and you are rising/lowering the automation


is NOT the same thing. I just tried it here.

It needs to be a mode that is easily selected with the other automation modes. This is bogus in my opinion.




FWIIW ProTools LE is also missing this mode..... totally bogus.

Well Mixerguy, the dictionary defines "bogus" as not genuine or true; it is pretty clear that you have your own unique definition of "bogus" - that which does not work the way I want it to work.

So under your definition, it is perhaps bogus but I respectfully would suggest that your definition of bogus is ...err.... bogus.

Which is not to say that the way you would like it to work would not better than the current implementation, because IMHO it would, although my preference would be a simple trim knob like exists on most consoles that leaves the automation as it is.

There are lots of things in Logic that could stand improvement.
There are lots of things in PT that could stand improvement.
There are lots of things in Cubase that could stand improvement.
There are lots of things in DP that could stand improvement.

@ Sascha, some very good ideas. But if you want to hear some hellacious kicking and screaming from engineers who use DAWS, you would get it if you change the console paradigm too much.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Sure. But sooner or later "all" DAWs will be able to do "everything"; so whichever DAW that does what you want it to do without needing to look up some page in the manual (let alone figure out which page to look for, or what that feature is called in that particular DAW) will be seen as more user friendly. The amount of steps and manual reading it takes to get something done actually matters - a lot, and this won't change. One will simply Get More Work Done if the steps involved are fewer, simpler and more in-your-face.

It doesn't help much if Logic can do everything, if it appears to the average users (who normally don't read manuals) that features they are looking for are missing.

It is certainly fair to say that Logic is less intuitive than some of the competing apps, although LP8 is easily the most intuitive version, so Apple is clearly headed in that direction.

Nonetheless, not that much effort is required to use the search in a PDF manual, and if the user is not willing to put in a little effort to do that, my guess is they are going to produce some crappy music, no matter which DAW they choose.

[matt thomas]

Its funny how much it depends on what software you are used to

I have found Pro Tools frustrating for some of the exact same reasons (but in the opposite direction) that you are finding Logic frustrating

both have their plusses and minuses

narco

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I DONT want this thread to merely be "Logic is great" or "Logic is no good".... (there are plenty of those threads)

but... am I missing something?

As far as I can figure:

1) Panning a stereo track is wacked - if you pan left, it is simply turning down the right side, as opposed to moving the right signal into the center, then left.

Having to use the “Direction Mixer” plugin for true stereo panning is bogus!

2) In the group setups - why is there not a solo link (or not) option within a group! Bogus!

3) why are solo’s in different places (arrange window, mixer) not always linked? This is a PITA


YMMV

i agree with all you're saying - and you're only scratching the surface of stupid things in logic...should be called illogic cos honestly, that's what it is

yes, the stereo pan balances and always has as far as i know
direction mixer the only way

i can't wait for Studio One - really want to be gone from Logic land - and it's going to be cheaper...win win win

[JPZ]

Man, all the whining. Mixerguy, read the manual, spend some time with the program, use your frickin brain. It ain't PT! Get over it! But it's pretty cool and is extremely powerful and you can use whatever interface you want and the plugins are half the price of TDM and it comes with a ton of stuff. FOR $500!!! Quite a deal I would say.

On another note. I mixed 2 projects this week. The first one on PTHD and the 2nd in Logic. The Logic mixes came together much faster and sounded better. I know I know, 2 different projects, how can you compare? Well I'm just saying.... I love mixing in Logic and I love the fact that I can do so much in it for pennies compared to my old, tired, outdated, PT8 doesn't even work right, crappy sounding 192's HD setup.

Macleodgrant. I wouldn't hang my hat on Studio One. I remember how I couldn't wait for Paris to come out. That was the answer to all my crappy, underpowered PT3 problems. I think we all know how that turned out....

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i can't wait for Studio One - really want to be gone from Logic land - and it's going to be cheaper...win win win

+1000

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

Well Mixerguy, the dictionary defines "bogus" as not genuine or true; it is pretty clear that you have your own unique definition of "bogus" - that which does not work the way I want it to work.

So under your definition, it is perhaps bogus but I respectfully would suggest that your definition of bogus is ...err.... bogus.

Which is not to say that the way you would like it to work would not better than the current implementation, because IMHO it would, although my preference would be a simple trim knob like exists on most consoles that leaves the automation as it is.

.........

Sorry if my usage of a common parlance slang word is confusing to you.

Let me be more clear.

Often I do an automation pass with fader moves, and then want to TRIM that automation in a few places of the song... using TRIM AUTOMATION MODE and the same fader.

Logic 8 seemingly does not provide this. I greatly miss this feature. I think it is a serious shortcoming of Logic 8 to not have this feature.

This is completely different than a "line trim" (often seen on an analog console, or available as a trim plugin). This trims all the audio flowing thru that 'channel strip'

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Sorry if my usage of a common parlance slang word is confusing to you.

Let me be more clear.

Often I do an automation pass with fader moves, and then want to TRIM that automation in a few places of the song... using TRIM AUTOMATION MODE and the same fader.

Logic 8 seemingly does not provide this. I greatly miss this feature. I think it is a serious shortcoming of Logic 8 to not have this feature.

This is completely different than a "line trim" (often seen on an analog console, or available as a trim plugin). This trims all the audio flowing thru that 'channel strip'

Do your automation pass. Go to automation view. Select the area you want to trim with the marquee tool. Trim the automation up or down and it stays intact. Read the manual. Couldn't be easier.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by JPZ

Do your automation pass. Go to automation view. Select the area you want to trim with the marquee tool. Trim the automation up or down and it stays intact. Read the manual. Couldn't be easier.

yes - I know how to do this.

I want to TRIM it, in real time, with the fader... as I listen to the level I am adjusting!

I am not an idiot. Been using DAWs for many years. My missing feature comment has nothing to do with reading the manual!

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

yes - I know how to do this.

I want to TRIM it, in real time, with the fader... as I listen to the level I am adjusting!

I am not an idiot. Been using DAWs for many years. My missing feature comment has nothing to do with reading the manual!

Once again, for the sake of clarity, your position is that while there are several different methods in Logic to accomplish the same task essentially, Logic does not do it the way you want to do it, so you deem it to be deficient.

Is that a fair summation?

If not, I am sure you will correct me. If so, then I will let everyone reach whatever conclusions they wish to reach.

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

Maybe I need to write another book, "Logic Pro 8 for the ProTools User."

That's actually a really good idea. I teach a class called "DAW" which covers Pro Tools DP and Logic, but students are using Pro Tools the most (in other classes). I'm constantly reminding them that if they try to treat DP or Logic like Pro Tools with a different GUI they'll drive themselves crazy. It's hard when you're used to one DAW and switch to another. You just have to realize there's not always a one to one equivalent... but there WILL be some way to do what you want. I'd use your book in my class! And I will check out the book you have already written as you seem like a knowledgeable guy.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

Once again, for the sake of clarity, your position is that while there are several different methods in Logic to accomplish the same task essentially, Logic does not do it the way you want to do it, so you deem it to be deficient.

Is that a fair summation?

No.

Is it possible to do FADER TRIM AUTOMATION in Logic 8?

I'd love to know.

- to TRIM existing automation (variable +/-) , in real time, with the fader... as I listen to the level I am adjusting... only when i am touching the fader.

?

doing this while not listening to the audio in real time, is NOT the same thing.
(IE selecting a section of volume levels and raising or lowering them offline is NOT the same thing at all)

[mixerguy]

FYI

a general definition of fader trim automation - from the web:

Trim
Trim mode allows you to update fader data from a previous mix pass, by using the fader to add or subtract level to/from existing moves. It achieves this by setting up a 'null' fader position and then any subsequent moves trim the existing data by the amount of positive or negative change from the null position.

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

FYI

a general definition of fader trim automation - from the web:

Trim
Trim mode allows you to update fader data from a previous mix pass, by using the fader to add or subtract level to/from existing moves. It achieves this by setting up a 'null' fader position and then any subsequent moves trim the existing data by the amount of positive or negative change from the null position.

I never mix by pulling faders around anymore but if HAS to be the way you want it why don't you just put a gain plugin on the last insert and automate THAT fader. Or....just draw the automation data in 1 time exactly the way you want it.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by JPZ

I never mix by pulling faders around anymore but if HAS to be the way you want it why don't you just put a gain plugin on the last insert and automate THAT fader. Or....just draw the automation data in 1 time exactly the way you want it.

I have spent years having trim fader automation available to me - on various consoles and DAWs - and to me it is a very valuable tool for occasional use.

The big advantage is that you can have complicated fader moves on one (or a group of many tracks) and if you want to make a few quick changes to existing automation - only in a few spots.... fader trim automation (set to touch, or even latch) can be a very fast way to make changes.

The nice thing about it is that there is (usually) only one trim 'path' so you can easily do the trim a few times to get it right (lead vocals especially) and then merge the trim into the normal automation stream. This is WAY faster and more intuitive than mousing around with level markers..... especially as you are LISTENING as you ride the levels.

Ashermusic (Jay) - in reading back thru your recent posts... I honestly don't think you understand the mode I am talking about. It is NOT a line trim, a trim plugin, or similar.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

especially as you are LISTENING as you ride the levels.

Trimming the levels with the mouse in Logic also lets you listen to the edits you perform, in real time.

OTOH, Trim exists as a dedicated button on Logic Control, so there must have been some plans about implementing a traditional, fader controlled Trim function.

[jcatena]

How does iLogic record several audio and midi tracks simultaneously?