things I think are bogus about mixing in Logic 8

[Græmatter Audio]

Put the stereo drum loop on two adjacent tracks/channels, select Left as the input format for the first and Right for the second. You can then pan the left and right channel independently.

For dealing with true (correlated) stereo sources the direction mixer is inherently superior. It would be nice if there were an option to have this replace the balance control on stereo channels.

G.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

Put the stereo drum loop on two adjacent tracks/channels, select Left as the input format for the first and Right for the second. You can then pan the left and right channel independently.....

G.

well, on projects where I am mixing 50+ stereo audio tracks... this is not a workable solution, really.... unless i misunderstand what you are suggesting..... do you mean duplicate each stereo audio track?

A future version of Logic should have an option of the PAN control actually being a PAN control.

It could default to how it is now to preserve existing sessions.... but have an option for true pan for stereo tracks.

just my 2c.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

well, on projects where I am mixing 50+ stereo audio tracks... this is not a workable solution, really.... unless i misunderstand what you are suggesting..... do you mean duplicate each stereo audio track?

A future version of Logic should have an option of the PAN control actually being a PAN control.

It could default to how it is now to preserve existing sessions.... but have an option for true pan for stereo tracks.

just my 2c.

But surely you would only duplicate tracks where you need to tuck one side in abit !?, in other words not 50 stereo tracks worth, for 95% of pans a simple L and R pan is all you would need .....

Logic can pan a stereo field , has binaural panning in every track , can have a plug-in to widen or tighten the stereo field, and can turn of turn off Left or Right on stereo files, so you can treat them as two mono files with their own pan control , ideally i would like to see an option on every fader where you can chose normal pan(like now), independent L/R like P.Tools and binaural , would be nice to select it just like you now select binaural on your channel strip .....maybe next version

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Having to use the “Direction Mixer” plugin for true stereo panning is bogus!

Possibly, but Logic is very CPU efficient, and maybe things like this (needing a plugin to do more complicated stuff than what Logic already offers) is part of the reasons for it's CPU efficiency?

In the group setups - why is there not a solo link (or not) option within a group

I think the combination of region solo and track solo in Logic makes it the most versatile of all DAWs in terms of soloing, but a Solo option within the groups would be nice.


Are you aware of the two solo/mute modes (Preferences>Audio>General)?

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Possibly, but Logic is very CPU efficient, and maybe things like this (needing a plugin to do more complicated stuff than what Logic already offers) is part of the reasons for it's CPU efficiency?

........

I just want pans to really be pans - and not merely left trim and right trim. This is NOT a pan.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

i would like to see an option on every fader where you can chose normal pan(like now), independent L/R like P.Tools and binaural , would be nice to select it just like you now select binaural on your channel strip

I agree that this is the way to add panning options, hope they do it. But none of the three options you mention is exactly a simple stereo pan. It would have a single pan position knob, like the current balance control or the binaural panner, but it would not have the EQ and phase side-effects of the binaural panner. So maybe four options!

-synthoid

[criticaldistance]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I just want pans to really be pans - and not merely left trim and right trim. This is NOT a pan.

dude, either split the stereo files into mono and load them on two separate channels, use the direction mixer, or get a different sequencer. do we really need two pages of you whining about how logic's stereo balance control is not a pan? of course it's not, it's a balance control.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by criticaldistance

dude, either split the stereo files into mono and load them on two separate channels, use the direction mixer, or get a different sequencer. do we really need two pages of you whining about how logic's stereo balance control is not a pan? of course it's not, it's a balance control.

well...... your first suggestion isn't a great option for mixing 50+ stereo audio files (can you imagine trying to EQ two separate mono audio tracks in an efficient manner - for example)

yes - I understand they offer a plugin to give me a real pan. I think it is a PITA

sometimes various factors mean I need to mix in Logic. I work in many different DAWs, and hardware consoles.

It just doesn’t make any sense that in mono or surround it functions as a panner, yet in stereo it is the “balance control” as they call it on page 549 of the Logic Pro 8 manual. 99% of the time I desire a pan when mixing stereo audio files.

and… last time I looked at this thread I wasn’t the only one participating… many other people are posting interesting ideas. Too bad your post didn’t bring anything new or helpful to the discussion.

[criticaldistance]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

who peed in your cornflakes?

you're right. i'm sorry. i've had a long day.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I agree that this is the way to add panning options, hope they do it. But none of the three options you mention is exactly a simple stereo pan. It would have a single pan position knob, like the current balance control or the binaural panner, but it would not have the EQ and phase side-effects of the binaural panner. So maybe four options!

-synthoid

I mean,it could have pan(like now), Universal pan option which will bring up two independent panners for left and right(values included) and Binaural ......anything to do with width in the stereo field can be left for a plug-in like direction mixer .....

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

I mean,it could have pan(like now), Universal pan option which will bring up two independent panners for left and right(values included) and Binaural ......anything to do with width in the stereo field can be left for a plug-in like direction mixer .....

If you've got two independent panners, one for each channel instead of a single balance control -- you've got control of width. What you don't have (in that case, without the balance control) is control of individual channel level. That's where a system that treats the left and right channels as though they were two independent mono channels, with a level control and a panner for each side, fits the bill.

The alternative is a balance control combined with a width control, which would effectively accomplish the same thing in a somewhat more roundabout manner -- and has the odd feature of what you might call negative width, where the right and left channels are effectively reversed to some extent. This, I believe, is how the current version of Sonar approaches it. It sounds entirely workable once you get used to it, but, frankly, I think the ability to switch between balance and dual mono type approaches is more straightforward.

That said, since there are plugs that will accomplish this, I figure this is pretty shruggable off...

[BtW, the Moneo plug I think I mentioned above has a pretty unique interface that controls these parameters: it's a box-like area with two sound source icons. If you put them both at the 'front' of the box in the extreme left and right positions, you get full stereo, full volume both channels. If you move one or both toward the center, you get diminshed stereo width (or negative width if you reverse their positions) and if you move one or both 'back,' the volume of that channel diminishes. It takes a second but it's kind of intuitive. In a way.]

[Græmatter Audio]

Route the output of both channels to the same stereo Aux and eq there.

But frankly for any situation where you'd require linked processor settings for eq, compression etc. (i.e. correlated true stereo recordings - where image shift is usually undesirable) the Direction Mixer is inherently superior.

Really, the only case where dual mono panning is useful is for the situation you've described; e.g. a percussion sample lifted off an old-fashioned hard panned recording where there are distinct (non-correlated) elements contained in the individual channels, which you might want individual control over. In this case processing them separately is useful and not problematic as there is no real center image to worry about. For this relatively rare situation splitting the left and right to separate channels makes perfect sense.

The balance control does make sense as the default control for stereo channels as it can compensate for left-right channel imbalance in the recording without the need for individual faders.

If, as you say, you are dealing with 50+ stereo tracks in a mix, I have to ask the question - are these true stereo recordings of individual elements, or are they primarily "pseudo-stereo" sources such as chorused or otherwise artificially widened sounds? If it's the latter you might find it preferable at the mixing stage to simply use the sum or else just one side or the other and fit them into a more realistic soundstage through your own means (panning placement + reverbs/delays, etc.) Of course soupy stereo abstraction can be cool too, whatever floats your boat.

G.

Originally Posted by mixerguy

well...... your first suggestion isn't a great option for mixing 50+ stereo audio files (can you imagine trying to EQ two separate mono audio tracks in an efficient manner - for example)

yes - I understand they offer a plugin to give me a real pan. I think it is a PITA

sometimes various factors mean I need to mix in Logic. I work in many different DAWs, and hardware consoles.

It just doesn’t make any sense that in mono or surround it functions as a panner, yet in stereo it is the “balance control” as they call it on page 549 of the Logic Pro 8 manual. 99% of the time I desire a pan when mixing stereo audio files.

and… last time I looked at this thread I wasn’t the only one participating… many other people are posting interesting ideas. Too bad your post didn’t bring anything new or helpful to the discussion.

[fermusic]

I think there are many that don't understand the most important point here!
I'm talking about "PAN" of course....

The point can be easly moved to a simple question:

Q: how works Logic Mixer?
A: Logic Mixer works like as Analog Consolle.. the Pan law and all connection are the same that you can find in a real Analog Studio recording Environments (including Cables)!!!

uncheck Universal track mode (turned off) ... if you want that Logic mixer can be easly used as ProTools or nuendo... (but don't forget Logic Mixer is the same as analog mixer) if you use Universal track mode ON, the mixer will be the same as analog stereo channel strip!!! (you can also force Logic to split stereo files as .L .R
(don't forget that Logic support DAE TDM hardware (UTM set as off)

after that... I come from Analog Studio Recording environments... I use analog recording studio when possible... because i love analog sound!

Personally I know how to use the Pan in a NEVE or SSL consolle... I don't need that Logic change this...

music can be recorded digitally but our ears work as Analog Devices

Anyway: I'm free to don't upgrade if Logic will become a NUENDO replicant!!!
I prefer Logic!


G

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by fermusic

I think there are many that don't understand the most important point here!
I'm talking about "PAN" of course....

The point can be easly moved to a simple question:

Q: how works Logic Mixer?
A: Logic Mixer works like as Analog Consolle.. the Pan law and all connection are the same that you can find in a real Analog Studio recording Environments (including Cables)!!!

uncheck Universal track mode (turned off) ... if you want that Logic mixer can be easly used as ProTools or nuendo... (but don't forget Logic Mixer is the same as analog mixer) if you use Universal track mode ON, the mixer will be the same as analog stereo channel strip!!! (you can also force Logic to split stereo files as .L .R
(don't forget that Logic support DAE TDM hardware (UTM set as off)

after that... I come from Analog Studio Recording environments... I use analog recording studio when possible... because i love analog sound!

Personally I know how to use the Pan in a NEVE or SSL consolle... I don't need that Logic change this...

music can be recorded digitally but our ears work as Analog Devices

Anyway: I'm free to don't upgrade if Logic will become a NUENDO replicant!!!
I prefer Logic!


G

I'm sorry - I dont quite understand your post....

on stereo tracks in Logic - the pan works as a 'balance control' - not a pan.

I would prefer a stereo pan. (the way ProTools does it) - independent individual control on both left and right positions across the stereo field. (IE an individual panner for both left and right sides of the stereo audio)

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

Route the output of both channels to the same stereo Aux and eq there.

With 50-100+ audio tracks in an average mix - this is not a good option.

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

But frankly for any situation where you'd require linked processor settings for eq, compression etc. (i.e. correlated true stereo recordings - where image shift is usually undesirable) the Direction Mixer is inherently superior.

I disagree. If I need 'balance' control i'd rather put a trim plugin on the track. I need to do this about 2% of the time when adjusting stereo audio tracks.

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

Really, the only case where dual mono panning is useful is for the situation you've described; e.g. a percussion sample lifted off an old-fashioned hard panned recording where there are distinct (non-correlated) elements contained in the individual channels, which you might want individual control over.

I disagree. I adjust pans of stereo audio tracks all the time.

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

In this case processing them separately is useful and not problematic as there is no real center image to worry about. For this relatively rare situation splitting the left and right to separate channels makes perfect sense.

Not when there are 50+++ audio tracks.... so again - I'll disagree with you. sorry.

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

The balance control does make sense as the default control for stereo channels as it can compensate for left-right channel imbalance in the recording without the need for individual faders.

I'm not talking about 'recordings' made with microphones ..... I'm talking about loops, synths, all manner of musical audio that you can imagine...... FYI.

Originally Posted by Græmatter Audio

If, as you say, you are dealing with 50+ stereo tracks in a mix, I have to ask the question - are these true stereo recordings of individual elements, or are they primarily "pseudo-stereo" sources such as chorused or otherwise artificially widened sounds?

Neither. Se above.

[synthoid]

I'd like to add another bogosity to this thread.

I like to send a group of tracks to a bus, post-fader, simply by setting their track outputs to the bus, then select that bus as the input to another track and print the submix to that track. But when I select a bus as a track output, an aux is automatically created for that bus. I don't need or want the aux. In particular, I don't want for the submix to be audible through the aux, because it means that I'll keep hearing the 'live' submix even after I've printed it to a track. What I'd like to do is to delete the aux, but for some reason when I do this, nothing is audible on the bus. So instead I have to leave the aux hanging around but mute its output.

It would be OK with me to create a track for the aux object and print my submix to that track, but a related bogosity is that aux tracks can't record audio, they only record automation for the aux.

I really, really like the routing in Ableton Live, where it is trivially easy to do the above submix printing, and in fact I really really like the automation editing there too. Unfortunately it has plenty of shortcomings of its own, sigh.

-synthoid

[fermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I'm sorry - I dont quite understand your post....

maybe I'm wrong... but I think is very easy to understand:
Logic Mixer works same as analog mixer consolle...

if you use stereo Aux on analog mixer consolle the Pan knob works exactly as Logic Balance...

is this a terminology problem?
PAN, BALANCE are 2 different words for the same function (except for the PanLaw that can be set as you prefer in Logic).... they are simple left and rigth Knob???

these terms are used also on the analog MIXER consolle and... there are no difference in the solid state gears (balance term is used on HI-FI Stereo preamps, Pan term is used on the hardware Pro Mixers that have only mono channel strips)

Balance or Pan is the same knob! (expept for PanLaw setting)

please correct me if I'm wrong

Originally Posted by mixerguy

on stereo tracks in Logic - the pan works as a 'balance control' - not a pan.

Yeah! this is clear, but also on hardware mixer consolle the term Balance is never used!!!

it is a PAN!.... or better the difference between PAN and Balance on Analog MIXER consolle is not so clear... that is what i mean
but maybe I understand that PAN in Nuendo is a proprietary function...
because I have many hardware MIXER that report Balance or PAN is the same hardware KNOB!

as I just said Logic Mixer works like as hardware Mixer!!
Logic Mixer is direct connected to your audio card
you cannot route the output... (but you can use I/O plugin)

this allow you to have less latency...
have you never check the same audiocard latency using Logic and using Nuendo/Cubase????

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I would prefer a stereo pan. (the way ProTools does it) - independent individual control on both left and right positions across the stereo field. (IE an individual panner for both left and right sides of the stereo audio)

This way is a protools way...mmm (i think is also Logic way but you need to set the preferences... I think protools have missing universal track mode features.. and Logic is able to works as you need UTM mode off or on... as required for your workflow) can you please let me know only one analog Mixer consolle that comes with this protools function?

(I remaind you that hardware pro Mixer comes with only MONO channel strips... so if you want that Logic works like protools you need to uncheck Universal Track Mode box located in the audio preference)

Otherwise the Direction Mixer plugin is a great advanced digital features that should be better!!! (does not exist in PT)

as I said Logic mixer works like as hardware Mixer and if you turn off Universal Track Mode... Logic will be fully compatible with Protools DAE TDM hardware!!! (also Nuendo can do that; this function is required for DAE TDM compatibility)

I suggest you to un-check UTM in Logic and set audio preference to force split to 2X L and R individual linked mono files... you will be able to obtain Dual link channel strips for every stereo track with indipendent BALANCE or PAN control! (this also allow you to have great advantage and ProTools compatibility

anyway I'm very curious to know the difference between PAN and Balance Term (i think they are the same... the first term is for Mixer consolle on MONO channel strips... the second term is for Hi-Fi gears and stereo preamps)

please correct me if i'm wrong... (but also i suggest to check Logic with UTM turned OFF!

cheers

G

[fermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I'm not talking about 'recordings' made with microphones ..... I'm talking about loops, synths, all manner of musical audio that you can imagine...... FYI.

Ok now i understand you are talking about Instrument channel strip!

try this... : just route stereo instrument on single mono AuxBuss by using sends... (if UTM is ON)
or if you are able to uncheck UTM (this set can be dangerous for the song that was started with UTM ON and are in working progress, but you will be also able to route on bus 1-2 3-4 5-6 and so on... this configuration is allowed only with UTM off

just use mono Aux channel strip and you will be able to use individual pan for left and right side of your instrument track.

G

[theblue1]

Though people sometimes refer to stereo balance controls as 'pan' controls -- they are not.

A stereo balance control leaves each channel hard-panned and controls the volume of the two channels with relation to each other.

A pan control controls the placement of a single channel or track in the stereo field.

You can put a pan control on each channel of a stereo pair -- but you must still allow for a way to control the volume level of each individual channel, as well. Without control of the volume of each channel, you don't have full control.

So for full control you either have to have independent level and pan controls for each channel of stereo (or each channel in surround, of course). Of course, that's effectively similar to two mono channels with their level and pan controls -- but by offering that kind of control in a stereo track/channel strip, you allow the ability to send yoked stereo sends to FX, auxes, etc.

[Or, in a stereo set up, you can have the same amount of control with a rather different interface by offering a stereo balance control and a width control. Which essentially controls the same parameters mapped to knobs differently.]

[jigsawlogic]

Originally Posted by synthoid

What I'd like to do is to delete the aux, but for some reason when I do this, nothing is audible on the bus. So instead I have to leave the aux hanging around but mute its output.

-synthoid

The key here is to make the bus channel visible. I'm not sure if the track mixer also displays bus channels, but the audio layer of the environment does. If the bus doesn't show up in the audio layer, create a new audio object (type:bus) and set it to the bus channel you wish to pass your tracks to. Once the bus channel is visible, it's output can be assigned in the same manner as all other channel strips, via a menu located above the fader. Put your inserts directly on the bus channel, and delete your aux. Problem solved (although without as much elegance as other DAWs, perhaps).

The only downside I can see is the possibility that busses can't be assigned as inputs to audio tracks. I'll have to check this once I'm back in the studio.

If might be worthwhile to populate your audio mixer with 32 busses and then save this configuration as a template. I'd be happy to send you one if you'd like.

Hope this helps!

[fermusic]

Originally Posted by jigsawlogic

The only downside I can see is the possibility that busses can't be assigned as inputs to audio tracks. I'll have to check this once I'm back in the studio.

in Logic you can select BUSS as input for audio tracks!

Logic Mixer works exactly like as hardware consolle + patchbay (also master out can be route by using I/O plugin

G

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Having recently, fitfully followed another (rather epic -- but largely unproductive/uninformative/or perhaps 'misinformative') DAW discussion thread, it's my notion that comments like those above don't add anything to this type of discussion.

You are so right. Reminds me of kids in high school that debated the merits of Ford Vs. Chevy trucks. "dude, ford trucks SUCK.. Chevy all the way!!"

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by fermusic

This way is a protools way...mmm (i think is also Logic way but you need to set the preferences... I think protools have missing universal track mode features.. and Logic is able to works as you need UTM mode off or on... as required for your workflow) can you please let me know only one analog Mixer consolle that comes with this protools function?

(I remaind you that hardware pro Mixer comes with only MONO channel strips... so if you want that Logic works like protools you need to uncheck Universal Track Mode box located in the audio preference)

Otherwise the Direction Mixer plugin is a great advanced digital features that should be better!!! (does not exist in PT)

as I said Logic mixer works like as hardware Mixer and if you turn off Universal Track Mode... Logic will be fully compatible with Protools DAE TDM hardware!!! (also Nuendo can do that; this function is required for DAE TDM compatibility)

I suggest you to un-check UTM in Logic and set audio preference to force split to 2X L and R individual linked mono files... you will be able to obtain Dual link channel strips for every stereo track with indipendent BALANCE or PAN control! (this also allow you to have great advantage and ProTools compatibility

anyway I'm very curious to know the difference between PAN and Balance Term (i think they are the same... the first term is for Mixer consolle on MONO channel strips... the second term is for Hi-Fi gears and stereo preamps)

please correct me if i'm wrong... (but also i suggest to check Logic with UTM turned OFF!

cheers

G

Great post! Useful stuff!

[El-Roy]

If you have a stereo track, WTF would be the point of panning it. Just convert it to a mono track by hitting the button and pan it in the direction needed. A stereo track would be for stereo effects usually but not always moving back and forth between L & R, which back to my point, why would you want that pushed to one side? It would no longer have a stereo sound.

[guavadude]

Originally Posted by Barbary Ape

I though I was only one imagining this happening. I always thought there was something strange about the panning in Logic even when I adjusted the panning law it still didn't do it for me.

That's why I mostly just use the free Flux Stereo Tool plugin for panning on certain stereo channels without the widening effect just panning. Not sure exactly what the pan law of the Flux Stereo Tool is but I prefer it. Try it while panning hard on a stereo file on Logic and then on the Flux Stereo Tool, Logic really just turns down the other channel if you pan hard.

what a great tip! Flux ST is great although I waste a lot of time just watching the groovy phase meter.

[staudio]

I would like more precise control over fader levels. I would like to be able to input numerically to .1 dB accuracy the desired fader position without having my input rounded off.

I would like non destructive region based gain that is NOT Hyperdraw or automation. Nuendo has this implemented perfectly.

I would like the region fade parameters to be modified by external control surfaces so I can use a knob to adjust fade time and slope.

[mixerguy]

more things I dont like in Logic:

- Apple click a mute button in arrange window behaves differently than Apple click a mute button in mixer window

- generally I think soloing sucks

- Logic 8 wont do automatic sample rate conversion when you drag an audio file into the arrange window

there are more - i forget.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

more things I dont like in Logic:

- Apple click a mute button in arrange window behaves differently than Apple click a mute button in mixer window

- generally I think soloing sucks

- Logic 8 wont do automatic sample rate conversion when you drag an audio file into the arrange window

there are more - i forget.

1. Not if you set the Preference properly. Go to Preferences > Audio > General and where it reads Track Mute/Solo, set it to Faster (Remote Channel Strips and muting in the Arrange or the Mixer will mute the Channel Strip itself and therefore all tracks going to it. The setting CPU=saving (Slow Response) allows them to be independent of each other, which is what I prefer personally.

2. You just don't understand it well enough yet. It is very different from PT.

3. Logic will however do automatic sample rate conversion when you bring a file into the Bin if you have the setting as follows:
The “Convert audio file sample rate when importing” project setting must
be active for automatic sample rate matching. You can turn on this setting in the File >Projects Settings > Assets pane.

So many things people do not like about Logic stem from the fact that thy simply do not know it well enough. It is fair to say that it is idiosyncratic and not the most intuitive app, but it is quite powerful when you know it well.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I figure this is pretty shruggable off...

That's terrible English. It's "shrug offable".

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

1. Not if you set the Preference properly. Go to Preferences > Audio > General and where it reads Track Mute/Solo, set it to Faster (Remote Channel Strips and muting in the Arrange or the Mixer will mute the Channel Strip itself and therefore all tracks going to it. The setting CPU=saving (Slow Response) allows them to be independent of each other, which is what I prefer personally.

2. You just don't understand it well enough yet. It is very different from PT.

3. Logic will however do automatic sample rate conversion when you bring a file into the Bin if you have the setting as follows:
The “Convert audio file sample rate when importing” project setting must
be active for automatic sample rate matching. You can turn on this setting in the File >Projects Settings > Assets pane.

....

Aha - super cool! Thanks!

This is why GearSlutz is great - people helping people learn good stuff. Much appreciated!!

While I have you on the line.... my biggest beef of the change from Logic 7 to Logic 8 is that (it is my understanding) that the limited ability to import session data from one session to another was removed.

I DONT mean channel strip settings.... I mean routing / many auxes / elaborate setups.

Any tips?

thanks