What is the big deal about dongle hate?

[captain caveman]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

B) they put a big load on the system and waste a lot of cpu and clock cycles with incessant calls to the dongle hardware. The dongle can, under certain circumstances, hog as much as 30% of you available cpu. Without the dongle programs would run significantly faster and you could run more iterations of plugins.

Are you serious? That is the biggest lie/myth that is propogated about dongles.

FYI in actualy real world tests between applications Cubase and Nuendo have slightly better performance than Sonar and slightly worse than Reaper.

How on earth can that be even remotely possible if the dongle takes up 30% of resources? How can that be even remotely possible if the dongle takes up any realtime resources worth mentioning at all?

Have a read through the excellent DAWBench benchmarking site if you want to read a bit of scientific testing rather than regurgitating mumbo-jumbo about irrelevances you don't understand.

One major, major benefit of dongles (at least the Syncrosoft one who's new algorithms have remained uncracked for several years and counting) from my perspective is......

Only people who have paid for Cubase and Korg (the ones I use) can use them. I actually think companies who aren't looking at copy protection solution(s) that work are disrespecting their paying customers by enabling non-payers to use the same stuff for free.*

*Clearly this is a reletively new point to be made since the (new) Syncrosoft dongle is the only successful copy protection system ever made (AFAIK).

[Ladia - Audeum]

To Manning1

Thank you !
Yes, is it not such a nightmare to lose the functionality of your studio because something so trivial like a flaky USB dongle ?
How professional is that ?!
It happened to our friend who runs commercial studio and someone stole his iLok dongle.
People talk about back ups or duplicates, well, I tried to create a back up. It's not easy. And order one extra...well...$6000 Mercury Bundle... I don't think so :-)

Have a great day !

[captain caveman]

Originally Posted by Ladia - Audeum

To Manning1

Thank you !
Yes, is it not such a nightmare to lose the functionality of your studio because something so trivial like a flaky USB dongle ?
How professional is that ?!
It happened to our friend who runs commercial studio and someone stole his iLok dongle.

So what you are saying is that the dongle didn't malfuction in any way and it got stolen. Wow, what an anti-dongle statement that is - imagine if his mouse got stolen.

[bmdaugherty]

One studio I used to frequent had a lock box chained to the rack with a usb and power connector going in to it. Inside was an 8 port usb hub full of the dongles.

Two points:

1) this is an EXTREMELY inexpensive insurance policy costing somewhere between 50 and 75 bucks... easily justifiable seeing as there are 10k worth of plugins on those dongles.

2) there is absolutely no way that a dongle can consume 30% of your resources... with 8 usb keys, you would be at 240% cpu usage.

I have no problem with my nuendo dongle...

[asplashofcitrus]

Thought I'd chime in with those against the ilok dongles- it's definitely not working with my particular setup. I have a Sony Vaio, and only has (2) USB slots on the right side of the laptop, using one for a Pro Tools dongle and another for a wireless mouse. I can't use them at the same time however, since the shape of the dongle protrudes on the sides, not allowing me to physically plug in the other USB for the wireless mouse (about the size of a typical flash drive), so I can't use PT and a mouse at the same time. Fail.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by asplashofcitrus

Thought I'd chime in with those against the ilok dongles- it's definitely not working with my particular setup. I have a Sony Vaio, and only has (2) USB slots on the right side of the laptop, using one for a Pro Tools dongle and another for a wireless mouse. I can't use them at the same time however, since the shape of the dongle protrudes on the sides, not allowing me to physically plug in the other USB for the wireless mouse (about the size of a typical flash drive), so I can't use PT and a mouse at the same time. Fail.

How dare you last few posters come in here and explain how dongles are not ideal for your particular recording setups in a reasonable & adult manner!

Where are the comparisons to Jim Crow laws?

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by asplashofcitrus

Thought I'd chime in with those against the ilok dongles- it's definitely not working with my particular setup. I have a Sony Vaio, and only has (2) USB slots on the right side of the laptop, using one for a Pro Tools dongle and another for a wireless mouse. I can't use them at the same time however, since the shape of the dongle protrudes on the sides, not allowing me to physically plug in the other USB for the wireless mouse (about the size of a typical flash drive), so I can't use PT and a mouse at the same time. Fail.

USB extension cable? Lindy 360 Degrees USB adapter?

[shanabit]

I would say that most who have an issue with it are using laptops. To that crew I would say use a DAW that doesnt need it for live stuff. Problem solved.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by captain caveman

So what you are saying is that the dongle didn't malfuction in any way and it got stolen. Wow, what an anti-dongle statement that is - imagine if his mouse got stolen.

Err?
In case your mouse is stolen, you buy a new mouse. In case your Syncrosoft dongle is stolen, you don't only buy a new dongle but you have to buy a new Cubase license, too.
See?

- Sascha

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by shanabit

I would say that most who have an issue with it are using laptops. To that crew I would say use a DAW that doesnt need it for live stuff. Problem solved.

Yeah, quite a great solution for those of us wanting to use the same DAW in the studio and live. Also a great solution in terms of compatibility.

- Sascha

[surflounge]

Originally Posted by Ladia - Audeum

someone stole his iLok

need an iLok safe

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by asplashofcitrus

Thought I'd chime in with those against the ilok dongles- it's definitely not working with my particular setup. I have a Sony Vaio, and only has (2) USB slots on the right side of the laptop, using one for a Pro Tools dongle and another for a wireless mouse. I can't use them at the same time however, since the shape of the dongle protrudes on the sides, not allowing me to physically plug in the other USB for the wireless mouse (about the size of a typical flash drive), so I can't use PT and a mouse at the same time. Fail.

Belkin - 4-Port USB 2.0 Hub - Dark Brown/Cream - F5U304-BRN

[Lawrence]

Why do you take it so personal? If you don't like dongles don't use things that require dongles. Why the need to insult people who don't mind by calling them fanbois? Or is your opinion always the only valid one? It's very simple.

- Buy a daw with no dongle.
- Use plugins that don't require dongles

The discussion here is answering silly reasons like "not enough ports". Well if you don't have enough ports to hook up an extra USB disk drive and a mouse and a USB audio device at the same time, (even if you don't have a dongle) what do you do?

You get a USB hub. That's why companies make them... not specifically for dongles but for anything that requires extra USB ports. That's just silly.

If you don't like dongles what do you do? Don't buy things that require dongles? No need to insult people who don't mind dongles in the process. I personally don't mind my Cubase dongle. Do I have your permission to use it without being insulted?

Nobody is imposing anything on you since you are free to not use their products.

Anyway, when I shopped for my daw laptop I made sure I had 4 USB ports. Dongle, mouse, thumbdrive occasionally and MBox occasionally. It wasn't hard to plan for that. I also installed a secondary hard disk for audio/video so I'd need one less port for that, or one less external device.

All my desktops have at least 4 USB ports. Silly reason.

[manning1]

maybe there should be a sticky on GS somewhere for those people that are interested
that details legitimate daw products and software that dont use dongles.
sonar doesnt and the two daws in my sig dont.
magix music studio dont as far as i'm aware. does traktion ?? i dont think so.
adobe audition ?? mebe folks can add to the list.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by m127

2) Besides the ACTUAL performance issues, major or minor, the problem IS the wasteful use of resources for US sw users (USB ports) for the sake of solving a problem that WE, we, the ones that actually PAY money for the software, are NOT responsible for.

Absolutely.

Regardless of how much of an issue a USB dongle might be - it *is* an issue, no matter how you put it.

- Sascha

[Lawrence]

Jeez...

I only have one point and it's a very simple point.

Some companies make professional daws that don't need dongles (in fact most?) and some companies make professional plugins that don't need dongles (in fact most?) so while a particular personal reason for not wanting to have a dongle on YOUR system might a perfectly valid personal reason... you NEVER have to use a dongle to make a professional recording so...

Why get angry about it? Nothing wrong with a discussion about dongles but when people get mad and personally insult others who's opinions about them differ that is ... childish. You do you and I'll do me.

How many daws are actually dongled? How many not? How many pro plugin / instrument sets are actually dongled? How many not? Are those dongled products the only products you can use to make professional music? If not... move the heck on already.

Why scream about the companies putting an unreasonable burden on you? Just use something else. If you want to use a product that has a dongle because you think that product adds a certain value that another product cannot... then that is a CHOICE or compromise you make. It's a wide and varied free market with lots of choices.

Nobody is twisting your arm to use a dongled product and you have no right to tell a privately owned company how to distribute their intellectual property. You only get to vote with your wallet. "Issues" with things vary depending on whom you ask. The dongle is not an issue to me in any way whatsoever so I suppose that makes me an ignorant fanboi.

I give up. Some people just like to rant.

Manning said it best. He doesn't buy products with dongles. How easy is that? He didn't call people that don't care one way or the other fanbois or morons. He's an adult.

[blue monk]

The dongle can lose your license ((or) break). Then you`re on your own.

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by asplashofcitrus

Thought I'd chime in with those against the ilok dongles- it's definitely not working with my particular setup. I have a Sony Vaio, and only has (2) USB slots on the right side of the laptop, using one for a Pro Tools dongle and another for a wireless mouse. I can't use them at the same time however, since the shape of the dongle protrudes on the sides, not allowing me to physically plug in the other USB for the wireless mouse (about the size of a typical flash drive), so I can't use PT and a mouse at the same time. Fail.

What you need, my friend, is the patented "Dongle Buddy" .. which
is probably the gayest product name of all time ..

Available here: https://www.ilok.com/cgi-bin/WebObje...ProductBrowser

What this product does is to allow the iLok to dangle from your laptop
over the arm rest of your aisle seat ... where it will be conveniently
crushed by the passing beverage cart.

jeff "can you say RMA?" markham

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by blue monk

The dongle can lose your license ((or) break). Then you`re on your own.

Dongles don't lose your license. If it malfunctions at least with syncroft you can send it to the company that supplied the license and they will give you your license back. They can do this because they know at any time what licenses were where because all the license transfers must be done trough their server.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by jmarkham

What you need, my friend, is the patented "Dongle Buddy" ..

Is that like a fleshlight?

I usually just use a sock slathered with K... oh um.... hmmm

Yeah USB extenders are useful. A lot of people I know actually store their ilok INSIDE the chassis of their tower.... always hooked up, not in the way, and not able to be pocketed.

Originally Posted by m127

1) Yeah, so extremely inexpensive, so why don't you buy it for all of us? Them ****ing corporations are making US pay for THEIR piracy paranoia. It's THEIR problem. THEY should pay for the dongle and all related expenses. Who cares if it's 20 or 200 euro...

2) Besides the ACTUAL performance issues, major or minor, the problem IS the wasteful use of resources for US sw users (USB ports) for the sake of solving a problem that WE, we, the ones that actually PAY money for the software, are NOT responsible for.



This is a problem of some white collar ****ed up policy that is WRONG in PRINCIPLE.

They, Stinkbug and the likes, IMPOSE those expenses on US. And they do so because there is NO ****ING REGULATIONS that protect us consumers in this underrregulated industry. They take advantage of their position because NO ONE is stopping them (just the same way they sell buggie features that won't work, and which they won't fix, unless we pay AGAIN for the same features on the next non point release. How about the solo-mute issue, will that fix be free for the previous version of Nuendo. NO!!! Nuendo users will have to pay AGAIN for an update that solves that issue that was sold as WORKING FEATURE in a previous version).

Regardless of how much their dongle costs or how ACTUALLY annoying it is to waste otherwise music-production useful USB ports... again, this is WRONG in PRINCIPLE.

It is THEIR problem. NOT ours.




Dongle fanboys here should stop playing the nice brown-nosing "dongle-me-in-the-ass-please-I-love-it" farse.

All them corporations care for is MARKET SHARE, not you nor I. Period.


.

Originally Posted by m127

Let me redact the post for the sake of your delicate ears (you are not a fanboy anymore, choose what fits you dongle suppoters better), and to see if you can even understand the SUBSTANCE of the matter, which is:

1. Yeah, it's not apparently a big deal. (Did you read this well? I say you are right: not a big deal, but only apparently)

2. Yeah, big or not, it is THEIR issue, not ours (get it? Again, get it? T-H-E-I-R-S Their issue.)

3. If I want to stick a tomato in my USB ports, that is OK because my USB ports are there for whatever the **** I deem they are there. They are not there to police myself, that's for sure.

4. If the disgusting piece of plastic costs 3 dollars only, and I want to buy ice cream for my dog with my money, so what? I rather support some crazy extravagance than the greed of a "FEW" who are crying because they are LESS rich than what they could be.

5. Even if the hassle just was to raise one of my INCREDIBLY BEATIIFUL eyebrows... that small hassle is UNDUE, because

a. we are not criminals, and legitimate customers MUST NOT be annoyed with any hassles that have NOTHING to do with the proper functioning of the program we paid for.

b. for the 4th time. It is a matter of PRINCIPLE and legitimate consumer friendly policies, not about how small or how big is the hasslle.


6. MOST IMPORTANTLY, Stinkbug didn't start with a dongle up in their mischevious asses. They SUDDENLY found a hardware way (they could not handle sw apparently) to prevent piracy BUT at the expense of the legitimate users. Do you understand? We financed AND lost 1 USB port to THEIR solution, which has NOTHING to do with what we need in what we are paying for. Or, are you gonna tell us that the dongle has a great effect in your mixes?

Why is this important? Because a full DAW platform is not something you change like socks. You develop habits and make IMPORTANT investments around your main DAW. You create thousands of projects and extend the main DAW's functionality with more hardware AND more software.

It is not only about stopping using that DAW that suddlenly became dongled. It represents a LOT of hassle to do such a thing for the people that actually work with it. My studio is COMPLETELY build around Stinkbug's DAW. Just my CUSTOM MIDI control system is worth about $6000 or even more, and it was build around Bugase. I would lose thousands and thousands of dollars if I switch DAWs at this point (I am still researching on this though). Or do you think that my $10k or more in VST compatible software can be switched to pro tools formats just like that????

They hook you up, and then they kick you in the rear like you don't matter (remember what they did with directX, remember how you have to pay for features twice or more because they would implement some IMPORTANT fixes only in the NEW payable version?)

It is the PRINCIPLE before the act what matters. And we ALL have the responsibility to stop a wrong policy that is based on the grounds that we are hooked. Otherwise they are goin to continue with bad practices that affects us all consumers at many different levels. They just got into a fight with Wizoo and the sw is discontinued. They single-handedly and under the table decided to surprise us all by stopping support for DirectX plugs. Yeah, that was years ago, but they are acumulating garbage year by year, but why? Because people like you say "oh, that is not a big deal" until the very point in time when you are directly affected. MARK my words, you will be affected hard at some point. Again, it is not the hassle only, it is the philosophy and modus operandi what raise questions on the integrity of such companies.






btw, Do you understimate us enough to proclaim that we do NOT know what a USB hub is?
That is WAY more insulting.


Set an example or don't complain.



And yeah, I don't buy dongled sw. And I started to NOT update Bugase, and will slowly but surely ditch it like garbage

In terms of pure, legitimate rights, they have a right to try to protect their sw, but they DO NOT have the right to do it at the consumers' expense, who is not GUILTY of breaking or hacking the sw in the first place. This a good argument to put forth in European Trade Commision, along with their policy on charging again for already sold features in order to fix them. I just read that organization ****ed Microsoft just on the grounds that they were only including IE with their OS, so, it doesn't seem like an organization to fool around with.

You can keep on proclaiming that I am mean, or whatever you want, to distract from the facts. But I assure you that most people here KNOW how to read and what to dismiss, regardless of your claiming that we can't tell what a USB hub is for.


Too bad for Stinkbug and the likes, because I spend about 1-2 thousand dollars on sw per year. Too bad for them, because at least a dozen people with similar sw needs have openly agreed with me, and they don't buy their products anymore. Too bad for them, because I will speak out at EVERY single opportunity, simply because it is the right thing to do, and because I am RIGHT on this one.

As usual you make good points, but I seriously think you could get your points across much more effectively without the hostility.

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Is that like a fleshlight?
Yeah USB extenders are useful. A lot of people I know actually store their ilok INSIDE the chassis of their tower.... always hooked up, not in the way, and not able to be pocketed.

We had a rash of dongle thefts here in the Bay Area. A couple of guys
were acting like they were interested in the studio .. one would
distract the owner / engineer and the other would pocket the dongle.

They busted them though .. funny, they were setting up a studio ;-)

jeff

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by m127

Yeah, well, it's the way it is. I am openly hostile to any wrong-doings by anyone or anything, and I base my judgments on the grounds of common good and common fairness, as well as from the perspective of the "little guy". The whole dongle issue is such a wrong-doing. I also exposed a history of actions taken by one of those companies (Steinberg) that seriously raise questions on their ethical integrity.

With that, it is more than expectable that>
a. some with hidden special interest will do anything to distort the facts and will do anything to focus on me personally, in order to distract from the truth. I bluntly denounce, and they call them "insults".

b. some who don't know better, but think it is a good thing to make friends with the above will just support them at all costs, but in a clumsy manner (they don't know better).

c. those who are above any sides, will just read and draw their OWN conclusions

d. the rest just doesn't care about anything


I target the c group. And I am confident my points do get across regardless of my style, because of what my points are actually based on.

My points are sincerely reflected upon. Most people don't take nothing seriously, and take sides just based on "the appearance of what would be safer to support". I admit I have little patience to those, but believe it or not, I actually contain myself A HUGE LOT in regards to my necessity to slap them off their evident light usage of neurons. I won't, don't worry.


On the other hand, my bluntness is often charged dearly by the politician-style-lovers at all levels. They do try to offend me personally and everything, but my skin is thicker than the world. The funny thing is that they protest on-topic-related bluntness with mere insults. Just hillarious, and thus their weakness.

In a few words, I don't spend/have time for hypocrisy. I understand a few nails will get broken along the way, but you know what? I deeply rely on substance and facts, and I am confident that substance is worth more than anything else in the view of those around who actually matter... the rest? I don't give a rat's ass about those.

OTOH, I get as passionate about well-doings too. Browse my posts and you will find plenty of "love rants" from me directed to good and fair policies and practices.



You and others can see there are fair and good points in my posts. That's all that matters to me.


Join me.
Denounce the wrong openly.


Join me using your own style.


Best,
m127

.

Do you apply the same honest/trusting policies to your own work and
your own music?

If someone were to take your work and start to sell it as their own, or
profit from it without your permission, would you be OK with that?

You've got your loyal listeners and customers .. and you don't
want to inconvenience them.

Where is that comfort zone for you?

jeff

[KevWind]

Okee Dokee and Elaina Bobbit agrees with ya whole heartedly

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by m127

I do appreciate their support and favor, so why would I want to take advantage of the fact that they like/love the product I sell to them?

I very much like your idea of a pass-thru mini USB hub.

IMHO, solution two is already in-place for products like Cakewalk's Sonar.
It's a "dongle-less" "trust the customer" software licensing scheme requiring
only registration. Reaper offers a similar licensing approach / style.

While this approach has garnered them customer loyalty, it is the principle reason
why Sonar is one of the more pirated DAW products out there (IMHO). We've
had several projects that were originally tracked in Sonar and at least
half of them had the software with the "my friend let me install it"
license.

Just like what happened in the music business (via illegal file sharing), the
expectation that people will pay for the software that they use out of the goodness
of their hearts is mis-placed (IMHO). In fact, what's happened in the music
business is that the practice of illegal use has become institutionalized. The
notion that one must pay for a music track is repugnant to some.

In my opinion, the same would happen with music software and that a minority
of users would actually pay for the product(s).

So, I begrudgingly accept the usage of dongles and the inconvenience they incur
because I want the R&D of companies like Digidesign, Waves, Yamaha, Cakewalk, Cockos, etc. etc, to be able to invest in advancing the State-of-the-Art.

I do agree that whomever chooses to use a dongle scheme should provide
the device free-of-charge and do their best to make it as unobtrusive as
possible.

jeff

[manning1]

jmarkham.
with great respect lets look at the big picture in all this.
and it all goes back to microsofts shrewd original product strategy .

with windows whether by design or planning.
a common platform was established.
adopted all over the world.
it was always the dream of many puter vendors to establish
this type of "control point" and "lock in" marketing wise.
windows has achieved this , but its a problem for developers that offer products for this
platform.
viz...its a very competitive arena. cos there are so many players
for this common platform.
thus any developer BEFORE offering a product on the platform will have to realise the downsides. one being how does one protect ones product without alienating users ??


this is one reason years back when i was frustrated with daw offerings and thinking of doing my own daw i decided against it. for the following reasons.
1. it was a level playing field OS wise.
2. it was likely to become very competitive. cos every one uses the same MS supplied
api's..app programming interfaces.
3. the problem of protecting ones application without alienating users.

if i were to do it today the only way i might do it is build my own included daw OS.
(so i didnt have to build in protection mechanisms that might alienate users.)
but that in itself is a problem cos it might not be successfull if the sound device vendors dont come on board.

as you can see the PROBLEM with a common OS is how do people that build applications for such
earn profit from their ventures ?? its a catch 22 with no resolution.
some companies of course manage to.
to be fair to companies that have built in protection mechanisms, its because
this level playing field has been established.

of course any which way the game is played...windows wins.
cos it provides the common platform.
and the application developers are squeezed by red hot competition and various other factors to be fair.

i'll leave you to read between the lines.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by jmarkham

I do agree that whomever chooses to use a dongle scheme should provide
the device free-of-charge.....

So musicians should get paid for their music, music software developers should get paid for their software, but copy protection technology developers should work for free?

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

So musicians should get paid for their music, music software developers should get paid for their software, but copy protection technology developers should work for free?

They should go and do something else, something useful; copy protection technology is bullshit.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

They should go and do something else, something useful; copy protection technology is bullshit.

Yes, especially a copy protection that prevents cracks.....

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

So musicians should get paid for their music, music software developers should get paid for their software, but copy protection technology developers should work for free?

No, the company that sells the software should provide the dongle
rather than requiring you to buy it from Pace (or Synchrosoft).

jeff

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by jmarkham

No, the company that sells the software should provide the dongle
rather than requiring you to buy it from Pace (or Synchrosoft).

jeff

So you'd end with as many dongles as plug ins? That would be a huge waste.It's also extremely naive to think that they would be free. They would be included in the price and everyone would pay it, regardless of needing a dongle or not.