What is the big deal about dongle hate?

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

Why does it matter if someone else steals it? I thought it was important to have what works for you. If a piece of soft is great and you buy it, but someone else steals it, the software remains great. Or the arrogant factor is important?

To me spending money supporting developers while parasites steal what I paid for matters a lot. It does not take anything from the software and I couldn't care less how many people have it.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Audio Damage and Fab Filter are two financially thriving independent companies who don't use dongles.

That list is long, too.

It's a myth that having a dongle increases your profitability.

- c

No it isn't, but it is a myth that the existence of cracks inevitably makes a software developer bankrupt.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by lpuma

I like my ilok cause recently released products protected by ilok are not available on peer to peer networks: this mean my 15 years old neighbour cant laught at me when I tell him I spent 1/4 of my month salary to buy my latest peice of software... I never felt really comfortable with spending my cash on stuff other ppl get for free, money cost too much work. And I dont give a shyt about being a good cityzen. Developpers protect your stuff or lower your prices if you want my cash.

+1

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Audio Damage and Fab Filter are two financially thriving independent companies who don't use dongles.

Add FXpansion and U-He to that list. And probably also Voxengo. Or even IKMM. Or Spectrasonics. Native Instruments. Etc etc. Yes, admittedly, some of them are using a somewhat "irritating" Challenge/Response approach, but take U-He as an example for a rather sucessful company using serial numbers only.

However, I do admit that at least the Syncrosoft system has served its purpose very well. I wouldn't happen to know when there was the last sucessful Syncrosoft protected crack after Cubase SX 2 (and according to the hackers that was quite an adventure already - been reading some stuff on KVR, just in case you wonder...), but each and every iLok protected application seems to get cracked more or less instantly, so using that kind of protection is absolutely pointless.

- Sascha

[Ace_TX]

stop bitching

it's real simple... if you hate the fact that you have to use a dongle with a prog...use something else

it's not that serious

if it is that important to you worrying about breaking or losing it...be more careful

if you use a laptop for music and it only has 2 usb ports...then slap yourself and buy a better one (gotdamn, my $350 netbook got 3 ports..)

if your worried bout a 16 yr old using cracked software and you paid hundreds of $$$ on legit software, then slap yourself for not having your priorities straight

[Nahuel]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

but each and every iLok protected application seems to get cracked more or less instantly, so using that kind of protection is absolutely pointless.

- Sascha

That's not true anymore, I cheked, I mean seriously, ilok works now.

[dsstudio]

As mentioned, softwares are just tools...
I buy software with protection is a way to support developer and fight pirate or people who try to use software for free.
Arrogant factor? you are missing the point.
You said " dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the user; it's not in the interest of the user" - you are wrong, dongle made to protect - including your investment.
It's more like " dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the PIRATE; it's not in the interest of the PIRATE"
Seriously, if you paid hundred thousands dollars for software/Plug-ins... then everybody around you all have the software for free, are you telling me you will happy with it (the CR method)?
I hate dongle too, I have to move dongle from room to room all the time, 5-10 times a day - But I accept it - I protect the dongle with extension USB cord, cover with something that prevent it from breaking, and even buy an insurance for it. Instead of trying to tell developer to stop using dongle, try to stop people around you not to steal software (That's impossible, right?) then learn to accept dongle.
Again, Just my opinion... YMMV, I am done with this topic...
Peace
Sonny

Originally Posted by Susceptor

Why does it matter if someone else steals it? I thought it was important to have what works for you. If a piece of soft is great and you buy it, but someone else steals it, the software remains great. Or the arrogant factor is important?

By arrogant factor I mean the part of you that tells you that a software is crap because everyone can use it, therefore you feel less priviliged.

I mean, you say that you did not buy Vienna because everyone could use it. Was the sound great? Yes. Did you buy it? No, because everyone could sound great.

Maybe some people should start using software by using their ears, and not the copy protectin "method used. Using a dongle or not does not change the sound.

Anyway, from my point of view, dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the user; it's not in the interest of the user. Great dongles are ones that actually give something, like DSP cards.
Just a thought.

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by dsstudio

As mentioned, softwares are just tools...
I buy software with protection is a way to support developer and fight pirate or people who try to use software for free.
Arrogant factor? you are missing the point.
You said " dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the user; it's not in the interest of the user" - you are wrong, dongle made to protect - including your investment.
It's more like " dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the PIRATE; it's not in the interest of the PIRATE"
Seriously, if you paid hundred thousands dollars for software/Plug-ins... then everybody around you all have the software for free, are you telling me you will happy with it (the CR method)?
I hate dongle too, I have to move dongle from room to room all the time, 5-10 times a day - But I accept it - I protect the dongle with extension USB cord, cover with something that prevent it from breaking, and even buy an insurance for it. Instead of trying to tell developer to stop using dongle, try to stop people around you not to steal software (That's impossible, right?) then learn to accept dongle.
Again, Just my opinion... YMMV, I am done with this topic...
Peace
Sonny

I'm starting to see yout point; the end user though might be irritated for having to spend 200$ on dongles that don't do anything (I don't consider that using a dongle protects the investment whatsoever). Then again, it's just a thought. When I said that dongles should give something (useful, besides developer protection against crackers), I was thinking about UAD cards (and such) that are dongles in a way. You get the horsepower you need to run the plugins (user gets something), but the plugins won't run without the cards (protection against crackers)

Anyway, Reaper is cheap, stable, flexible, pretty good for my needs (switched recently to it) and does not use any form of copy protection. I don't see the developers going bankrupt.

[civilization3]

Originally Posted by olivialand

Hold on a second, there. Are you telling me that if I put a license for a software program on a dongle, and that dongle breaks, that I can't return the broken dongle to the software maker (to prove that it broke and that I didn't give it to someone else), and then just buy a new dongle device to put the license on (which I assume would cost under $50)? Are you saying that I would, instead, have to buy the software (probably costing hundreds of dollars) again from them?

If this is true, this is astonishing, and really abhorent.

Or maybe I just misunderstood you.

I bought some Yellow Tools thing years ago, and lost the dongle while moving. They're real up front about the policy of NO REPLACEMENT. Ever ever. Never used the app. 300 bucks down the crapper.

POS GUI too. They should be boycotted by everyone for life, IMO, even if they changed this.

Syncrosoft, I'm ok with. I have all my VSL and Steinberg on the same dongles. VSL gives you three licenses, so three machines, three dongles, not that bad. They will replace. Takes a few days.

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

No it isn't, but it is a myth that the existence of cracks inevitably makes a software developer bankrupt.

Yes it is. Read a few posts later and someone started listing them. It's a long list. It includes big companies like Native Instruments, FXpansion, and smaller ones like Massey, and Cytomic, etc. They're all doin' fine without dongles.

Audio Damage has stated many times that their success has come largely as a result of them not punishing their paying customers.

- c

[Bflat]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

Marvellous. The students are thieves, therefore dongles are bad and steinberg is no good.....

No, they are not theives. They just misplace things, as most young adults do. I liked Cubase, but Logic 8 is just easier to manage and happens to be just as good. It just became a no-brainer to switch to the dongle-less program.

I look at it this way: I have a $20,000 car which requires a key (dongle) to start. Every so often I lose the keys (dongle) to the $20K product I own, but I have a backup, plus I can call the dealer and request a new key if needed (for a fee.) That is, again, a $20,000 product and you have more flexibility than a $800 piece of software? Imagine a car dealer who refuses to give backup keys and also refused to make you another key for the product you legally purchased. Result? You go to another dealer (after reporting them to the Better Business Bureau.) To me - the end user - its another no-brainer.

[Bflat]

Originally Posted by StereoPari

What most people don't know is that you should probably treat your room first

Fair enough.

[Bflat]

Just would like to add that yes, pirated software is theft! Stealing does matter! Fortunately, 95% of us still purchase our software legitimately. We don't want a software fiasco similar to that of the housing market!


That said, when it comes to your 15 year old neighbor, why are you guys so insecure? Do you think that kid will be able to match your skill level as well? Its just a tool... like a crescent wrench.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by dsstudio

Your commends made me laugh, you are obviously not serious in your music business (if you even have one).

I'm indeed not, but that should not influence the argument made here.

I did not say I depends that much on having something other people don't... Software/Plug-in for me is a tool, skill aside, you need good tools to work...

Let's go over this again:

Originally Posted by dsstudio

I wouldn't buy ANYTHING (Software) knowing that the next day, every kids/competitors around all have it by downloading it.

In other words, when you pay for what the rest rips off, you'd feel like a chump for paying for it since the rest didn't, but your personal ethic prohibits doing the same.

You name these kids. You pride yourself on being serious in the music business. How are these kids a threat, then? They don't have the experience you have. So, they aren't.

You name the competitors. The only thing they have going for them are their lower rates since they don't have to get their return on investment back on the software. That is a point; however, without you investing in the same software, they can say that they offer more.

Even then, buying the software means you get the support, which means you'll be faster w/ troubleshooting - while they waste away hours asking on forums if they're stuck.

You say you quit using Logic because everyone else had it. Explain me how this means you did not throw away months or years of experience with Logic. You'll have to spend time re-learning everything on your new platform (whatever that is), all the shortcut keys, everything, so it becomes an extension of your brain again. I can fully understand going to another platform because you get more customers with say, PTHD projects or something, and you need to be able to cater to them, and you wanted to upgrade anyway.

My point was - I will buy something only if I feel my investment is safe.

Thing is, software is an immensely shitty investment. Secondhand versions drop in price like a brick once a new version comes out, and when the license prohibits resale, the resale value is zero, so you're stuck with it. Certain manufacturers just dump the previous version altogether and won't fix the bugs in it, and when you ask, you're told you can upgrade - for another stack of cash.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Yes it is. Read a few posts later and someone started listing them. It's a long list. It includes big companies like Native Instruments, FXpansion, and smaller ones like Massey, and Cytomic, etc. They're all doin' fine without dongles.

Audio Damage has stated many times that their success has come largely as a result of them not punishing their paying customers.

- c

Sorry, but you obviously don't understand what I write, so no point in replying to you.....

[nurfen]

I really think that iLok is great, it's stable and easy, and it prevents piracy. it's just sad to see companies make their "own" dongles, just for their products.

[Sascha Franck]

There's one thing people often seem to forget when it comes to somewhat "obtrusive" copy protection schemes (which includes dongles but even more so C/R). What if the company you bought your product from goes bankrupt?
Let's say you have a bunch of IKMM (or NI, or whatever) products and you want to install them on your fine new computer. Now, with the company going bankrupt, you could as well just flush them plugins down the toilet - or does anybody really expect the companies in question to keep their authorisation servers online in case they are indeed bankrupt for the next number of years (until the plugin format becomes obsolete)? Ok, at least NI has it on their site that, should something like that ever happen, would give out permanent authorisation codes to their customers. But who knows whether that'd happen indeed...
Then, let's assume you lose or break your Cubase dongle but Steinberg just went bankrupt. Forget about all your precious Cubase projects, you will never be able to open them again unless you find a second hand dongle.
And finally, you won't be able to sell your software anymore, either.

As you can see, this is where any hardware analogies completely fail. As long as I find some techs that will do service jobs, I can drive any oldtimer car until the end of the days of fuel as we know it.
If I lose my car key, I can get a replacement, even if the company is bankrupt, too, given I can provide a certificate of ownership.
And I can obviously sell my Strat without any "ok" from Fender, let alone paying a transfer fee.

In the case of Steinberg, the hardware analogy (aka "a dongle is like a key to your car") fails even more. If you lose your dongle, their policy is that you have to buy an entirely new license. There's no reduced price, no nothing. This is more or less like them accusing you of theft ("oh no, we're sure you didn't lose it but gave it to someone else"). Fortunately, they started thinking about the situation after some pretty nasty debates on Cubase.net - but that's a while ago already and it's still not happening.
Anyway, as said, this has got nothing to do with a dongle being the same as a key. It's really not the software license that is of any value, it's that little piece of plastic and metal only.

And this is exactly why I applaud any companies who don't get in your way at all, regarding copy protection. Heck, look at Reaper - and they seem to be doing well. And, with Reaper it's not only that you don't have to worry about lost dongles or authorisation servers not working or anything like that - you can even run it from a USB stick. You could even partition your USB stick and run it on either Windows or OSX. That's what I call customer service. And Reaper seems to be doing quite well. Sure, with absolutely no copy protection (others than a reminder once you're past evaluation time), I'm sure there will be lots of folks using Reaper "irregularly", but OTOH there seem to be a whole lot of people praising this unobtrusive way of dealing with copy protection by purchasing a license, regardless whether they're using Reaper often (or even at all).

And as a last thing, about all that "using a dongle I can take my plugins with me to any studio" stuff... in all seriousness, how many more or less professional studios do you know that would even let you near their precious machine rooms to install some software that they're usually not using? Especially given the bad track record of something like, say, the PACE drivers (such as doing pretty malicious things to your system, especially true for Windows but partially for Mac OS as well), regardless whether these issues have been adressed or not - in case those drivers aren't installed already, no studio owner (or maintainance tech) would let you install that stuff on their systems, unless you're really good friends with them.
Again, with a single .dll, .vst or .component file, things may already look quite different. Even more so if a scenario such as the Reaper one would be possible.

Oh, and yet another thing: For someone being on the road often, dongles simply suck. Admittedly, they do suck even more in case you're using a hopelessly underequipped machine such as any Macbook, but even with 4 onboard USB ports the situation isn't exactly shiny in case you're really working on your lap. Ok, the Syncrosoft dongle is rather small, so chances of someone stumbling against it (hence probably damaging your USB slot or even the dongle) are not too big, but look at that WAY too large iLok POS (it's almost twice as long as the Syncrosoft one)! It's unnecessarily huge and there's quite some chances you would sort of bend it while working mobile.
Yes, I have both an iLok and a Syncrosoft dongle, and no, they're not exactly putting me away from probably missing out on some fine software, but one thing is for sure: As soon as I have an alternative choice, I certainly know what to purchase. Hence, almost all of my projects can be opened without any dongles attached - fwiw, I'm mainly using Logic, NI Komplete, all things U-He, all things FXpansion, AA Reverb, a bit of IKMM stuff (which got de-authorized by installing OSX.5.7 - Apple stinks again), Overloud stuff, Rob Papen thingies, etc. All very fine plugins, none of them requiring a dongle. Heck, Zebra 2 IMO is one of the best softsynths on the market right now (perhaps even the best in case you don't need sample import functions) and it's using the least obtrusive copy protection there is: A simple serial number - and AFAIK, Urs is not having plans to change that any day soon.
So, even if I have a few dongle protected things, I will rather not use them much at all. And that's no good advertising for said companies, either. Seriously, quite sometimes people are wowing at the guitar sounds I'm getting during my little backstage jams, using Overlouds TH-1. But they will never wow at the guitar sounds coming out of, say, the Studio Room amp sims - simply because no dongle will ever see any backstage room. I always leave the dongles at home.

Ok, enough drivel for now.

- Sascha

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

Then, let's assume you lose or break your Cubase dongle but Steinberg just went bankrupt. Forget about all your precious Cubase projects, you will never be able to open them again unless you find a second hand dongle.

Well, then do not buy any digital hardware! If it breaks and the company goes bust you can not use it, thus all digital electronic equipment is evil!

Of course, your reasoning must only apply to dongles....

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

Well, then do not buy any digital hardware! If it breaks and the company goes bust you can not use it, thus all digital electronic equipment is evil!

That's pretty much nonsense. It might be true for Apple computers, but I can get almost each and every Windows PC replaced and/or serviced, regardless of the company that originally made it.
And as far as other electronic devices are concerned, again, a lot of them can be serviced by 3rd party techs. Dongles can't. And no 3rd party tech would be able to replace a not-anymore-existing authorisation server, either.
Heck, with other electronic equipment I own I'm even allowed to do some circuit bending (if I wished at least). Again, not so with software (others than open source stuff).

- Sascha

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

Of course, your reasoning must only apply to dongles....

It applies to activation servers, too, actually .

Sascha : where is that statement on the NI site? I couldn't find it, but I'm pleased to hear they've got a plan for that.

[Bflat]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

In the case of Steinberg, the hardware analogy (aka "a dongle is like a key to your car") fails even more. If you lose your dongle, their policy is that you have to buy an entirely new license. There's no reduced price, no nothing. This is more or less like them accusing you of theft ("oh no, we're sure you didn't lose it but gave it to someone else").

We're actually making the same point here.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

That's pretty much nonsense. It might be true for Apple computers, but I can get almost each and every Windows PC replaced and/or serviced, regardless of the company that originally made it.
And as far as other electronic devices are concerned, again, a lot of them can be serviced by 3rd party techs. Dongles can't. And no 3rd party tech would be able to replace a not-anymore-existing authorisation server, either.
Heck, with other electronic equipment I own I'm even allowed to do some circuit bending (if I wished at least). Again, not so with software (others than open source stuff).

- Sascha

That's nonsense. Try to get a PCI card from a company that no longer exists fixed. As soon as you need a chip containing some software that only they had you are screwed. Your argument applies to all modern digital equipement, yet it is only a problem with dongles.

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Sascha : where is that statement on the NI site? I couldn't find it, but I'm pleased to hear they've got a plan for that.

I don't exactly remember. Perhaps you need to log in to find it, or maybe it was in one of their forums, but it was defenitely an official statement.

- Sascha

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

That's nonsense. Try to get a PCI card from a company that no longer exists fixed. As soon as you need a chip containing some software that only they had you are screwed. Your argument applies to all modern digital equipement, yet it is only a problem with dongles.

It is obviously a bigger problem with dongles. A dongle doesn't add any worth to my sequencer or plugin. Not even remotely.
It *might* add some worth for the developer, but for me as a user, it doesn't. Yet, when I lose something absolutely worthless to me, I can't use my sequencer anymore.
That's just ridiculous.
And anyway, we're not even talking about parts that can't be replaced anymore. You can buy Syncrosoft dongles. But in case Steinberg was out of the market, you still couldn't run Cubase on them anymore, even if you bought it, even with completely intact dongle hardware.
It's completely beyond me how you fail to see that your comparisons are absolutely invalid.

- Sascha

[GearGuy]

When Al Gore created the internet for us all to use... I wonder if this thread is what he had in mind?

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by GearGuy

When Al Gore created the internet for us all to use... I wonder if this thread is what he had in mind?

Going back to 1984 has people on USENET arguing vehemently over whether the Star Wars sequel was worth anything - with the main difference that everyone bothered with spelling and grammar, and general politeness.

It's probably a guy thing, obsessing over the presence of one's dongle.

[Dysanfel]

I just don't like being treated like a thief.

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by Sascha Franck

That's pretty much nonsense. It might be true for Apple computers

Tell that to the people working on hackintosh (and make MacOS run on almost any PC using an original CD, with updates directly form Apple); the only legal issue is with the EULA. Apple seems not to bother with these groups though, since they do test Apple software on so many hardware for free.

The funny thing is that if a company uses dongles or c/r and it goes bankrupt and you have software from them, your only solution is to use cracked versions

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

The funny thing is that if a company uses dongles or c/r and it goes bankrupt and you have software from them, your only solution is to use cracked versions

How come? Dongles stop working due to lack of funding??

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

How come? Dongles stop working due to lack of funding??

In case your dongle breaks, yes.

- Sascha