What is the big deal about dongle hate?

[tommyd123]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Ding ding ding!

You caught me!

Trust me if I had my way we would be on an honor system and EVERYONE would pay for their software and music, and movies etc etc etc... if we have to have copy protection I really prefer a dongle seeing as it lets me use my tools on ANY computer.... all I have to do is waltz in with my ilok. No serial codes to enter or anything.

I completely agree, I find the Ilok to be a pretty ingenious solution and quite convenient as well! It seems to me that the predictible complaints by some are probably one of many leveled at large succcesful companies by whom they feel oppressed. The indisputable truth is that the purchases of these products are purely voluntary. These companies are merely trying to find a way to make their products available and at the same time, rightfully so, trying to protect against thievery and piracy. There is no grand conspiracy here, just good business practice.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

As a matter of fact, I prefer to buy software that I know is not available for free. As simple as that.

Your loss. You let yourself miss out on some awesome software. It's not a guarantee for any uniqueness though, since there are still thousands of buyers for exactly the same software you have already purchased.

Perhaps there's a little consolation for you; most users who I've seen that use a cracked version of SX3 are talentless idiots without a shred of motivation who do the software equivalent of driving two amazing race cars - at the same time - leaning through the window to control one accelerator with their hands and the other with their feet, thinking that it'll take 'm where they want to go twice as fast.

Ableton may make money, but they'd make more if there was no crack.

And by treating their current users as guilty by default, they'd lose revenue again from paying customers who are disgusted with those practices. We're talking about folks who'll plonk their Macbook down at the spot - can't have anything sticking out of it when you're travelling.

And don't tell me users come clean and all that when they have the money, it's a load of crap as well.

Where was I saying that? It was proven by the Waves razzia. Note that I'm not defending any downloaders or supporting any of their excuses.

Dongles are terrible for those who hate the thought of being responsible for their own property and actions.

Dongles present a liability. I can re-download the setup files of Ableton every time I want to at any place at any time. There's no better insurance policy than that.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Only if complacent fools continue to sell the rest of us out.

I remember in the '50s and '60s the southern white supremacists said we'd never get rid of the Jim Crow laws.

Same exact thing.

LOL! If this is not a joke this is dumbest thing ever posted.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

To Steinberg's credit, the dongle calls are not done during playback, only when doing things like adding a track. But don't let the facts get on your way. The anti dongle people usually don't....



lol

Same old BS

Show me the craks for Korg legacy analogue and digital editions protected by syncrosoft.

Show me a FULLY functional Cubase crack. Show me Cubase 5 fully functional crack.

I prefer syncrosoft because if there's going to be any protection, then at least they should use one that WORKS!

Not interested in cracks. Not interested in software with dongle protection - I don't use it. Not interested in softsynths for the most part - hardware sounds better and retains art least some resale value.

What I am interested in is a good legit copy of a DAW program that doesn't use a dongle, as I won't have one of the filthy things on my system. Leading contenders at present are Sonar, Reaper, and possibly the new PreSonus StudioOne when it comes out at the end of August.

I used to use Steinberg (have a legit copy of Nuendo), but they screwed me on my upgrades and have basically a shitty attitude toward their customers - they also lied to my face when I raised the dongle issue with them at AES - they told me that if there was a problem they'd be happy to fly out a new dongle and hand deliver it and that artists like Moby never have any problems with lost dongles because of their support. Right. Pull the other one, it has got bells on. Like they're going to give star level support to just any customer, when I KNOW from the experiences of friends that they don't - and actually make it damn difficult for people who do actually lose their dongles or have them stolen. The same company a-hole tried to tell me that the dongle does not use up system resources with needless calls. I hate being lied to, and have gone from being a rabid Steinberg supporter to someone who will not give them any more money, having been well burned and lied to in the past.

Oh, one other thing - there is no such as a Korg Legacy analog softsynth. Softsynths are by definition digital. Korg may call it analog, but that doesn't make it so - it's a digital "emulation" of the original. I'm not a synth player, but if I buy a synth for my studio it's not going to be crappy digital simulation of analog hardware - it's going to be analog hardware. And I'll be able to get my money back out of it if I decide to sell it, which you can't do with software.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

there is no such as a Korg Legacy analog softsynth.

It's the product's name, not Korg trying to argue semantics on a deeper level.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

You are HILARIOUS!

I was literally rolling on the floor laughing at that last one.

Fair use provisions:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

What part of that says that you can't be required to have a dongle to run the software?

Keep grasping at straws and being dismissive instead of actually answering my questions.

Don't you think that if the EULA agreements were illegal that someone much smarter than you or I would have had a successful case against the software companies?

I said I was done talking to you. I guess I lied. Sorry.

We have two separate, but related issues here. First - what I said, if you had been paying attention, was that the dongles companies are not "being nice" - they are allowing use on multiple systems because it's the law. Granted some software companies attempt to ignore that part of the law, but that's a different issue and beside the point as far as this discussion goes. Note - if it wasn't the law you'd have dongle protection reading the imbedded serial numbers in your cpu and mobo and locking the protection to a single machine. You can bet on that - but doing so would almost certainly provoke a legal challenge from the EFF.

The other issue, which is only part of this discussion, is the matter of EULAs. The reason that there have been no challenges to date to many of the illegal provisions on many EULA agreements is very simple - economics. It would be very expensive for any individual or ad hoc group to mount a legal challange to the illegal provisions of the standard EULA and the software industry has very deep pockets as well as whole armies of lawyers on retainer. That would make it extremely expensive for anyone to kmount a lawsuit unless they had the backing of an organization such as the ACLU or the EFF. Mounting a legal challenge would also require someone sticking their neck out to mount a test case. Since the software companies rarely, if ever make a serious effort to enforce these provisions of their EULAs (possibly because they know full well that those provisions are unenforceable) it makes mounting a test case rather deifficult.

The legality of all this is obfuscated by the provisions of the DMCA that deal with copy protection - in that it makes the tools necessary to take advantage of one's rights under fair use illegal under present US law - this is a contradiction within the law that has yet to be resolved and it not likely to be really deal with for some time due to the previously noted expense of mounting a test case.

The fact is that an EULA is nothing more than a contract and by federal law any clause in a contract that runs contrary to legal statute is unenforceable and void. That the software companies have devised "mechanical" (in the legal sense, which includes computer programs) means to enforce their illegal demands and have, at least temporarily, managed to get legal protection for their means of enforcing illegal practices is a conundrum that will require an organized and well funded consumer movement to resolve, which is why I'm standing on this soapbox agitating.

[Andrew Bach]

The debate over dongles can swing either way. We had a number of requests to be able to use a dongle, but when we provided one we had more complaints about having to use a dongle. The challenge/response system we use gets a pretty good response overall, but we are always interested in hearing what you think. What would be your perfect system for copy protection?

[StereoPari]

Originally Posted by Bflat

I work for a school and purchased Cubase 4 for our edit labs. 3 students accidently walked off with dongles and lost them, and we were without 3 editing stations until I just went out and purchased copies of Logic 8 to replace it. Lost profit for Steinberg... oh well. Logic 8 smartly handles copyright protection over the network so no additional users can use the program than we have licenses for. It just displays a notice and quits. Its efficient, effective, and we don't have to spend a fortune everytime a student becomes absent minded (which never happens, really. ).

I guess the good question would be why would any end user want one? So there's more market share for the wealthy? Thats all I can think of.

What most people don't know is that you should probably treat your room first

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by Andrew Bach

The debate over dongles can swing either way. We had a number of requests to be able to use a dongle, but when we provided one we had more complaints about having to use a dongle. The challenge/response system we use gets a pretty good response overall, but we are always interested in hearing what you think. What would be your perfect system for copy protection?

Both: challenge/response & ilok.

I'm for having those options open to the end user.

[dsstudio]

I did not buy Vienna Instruments back in the day they don't have dongle protection.
They earn my money (lots of money) because they are now using dongle.
I wouldn't buy ANYTHING (Software) knowing that the next day, every kids/competitors around all have it by downloading it.
Logic/Apple made me dissaponted by abandon dongle (everybody around me now having Logic)
My point is, if you are serious in the business, you'll love or need dongles.
Just my opinion, developers should take note.
Sonny

[Yoozer]

If your skill depends that much on having something other people don't, you're doing it wrong. Furthermore you're only kidding yourself, because at least a hundred competitors will have what you have - and legit, too.

It's your skills that make you attractive to customers, not how fast you get a plugin. If that was the case the warezbunnies would've bankrupted you already.

[Sascha Franck]

Easy answer: On a Macbook with just 2 USB ports, you simply learn to hate dongles when you're on the road often. In addition, at least iLoks serve no purpose. Syncrosoft seems to do, btw - at least some programs haven't been cracked, something not true for iLok protected stuff.

I wouldn't give the slightest damn about dongles if I was regularly using a desktop machine, but since I'm heavily relying on my little mobile studio to function full stop like just about anywhere, I hate them with a passion - and well, while Apple is absolutely pathetic in offering 2 USB ports only, I hate dongles just as much on my Windows laptop.

- Sascha

[Bob800]

Te ones who are justifying the dongles are just stupid, ignorant and weak sheeps (Obaa-a-a-amaa-a-a-a-a!) who will also accept the totalitarian big brother world known as the New World Order. Haha, just kidding... but not really.

Guilty, until proven innocent. That´s the name of the game these days, sad but true.

Steinberg should actually thank all the groups, that cracked their software, because without them they probably wouldn´t even exist now.

The funny part is that dongles are ment to make life harder for the pirates but instead it's the ones who pay for their software that suffers. Ironic.

Hear hear!

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Bach

The debate over dongles can swing either way. We had a number of requests to be able to use a dongle, but when we provided one we had more complaints about having to use a dongle. The challenge/response system we use gets a pretty good response overall, but we are always interested in hearing what you think. What would be your perfect system for copy protection?

I have Amplitube and CSR. I pity there's no ilok authorisation for those. I think that reinstalling software with the ilok is much easier and I like having the option to be able to use the software in any studio that I work in.

Basically with the ilok there's no install limitation, there's just a software 'startup' limitation.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

I have Amplitube and CSR. I pity there's no ilok authorisation for those. I think that reinstalling software with the ilok is much easier and I like having the option to be able to use the software in any studio that I work in.

Basically with the ilok there's no install limitation, there's just a software 'startup' limitation.

I have a license for CSR in my syncrosoft dongle, because when I bought it it used syncrosoft, afterwards they got rid of it.

I would prefer syncrosoft, simply because it works, which Ilok doesn't seem to do.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Andrew Bach

The debate over dongles can swing either way. We had a number of requests to be able to use a dongle, but when we provided one we had more complaints about having to use a dongle. The challenge/response system we use gets a pretty good response overall, but we are always interested in hearing what you think. What would be your perfect system for copy protection?

To me, one that works. As far as I know only some hardware dongles, like syncrosoft and wibu seem to do that. The rest seems to be a waste of resources and an unjustifiable hassle. I have a lot of IK stuff and every time I have to reinstall its a huge waste of time getting new hardware ID's and all that.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

I have a license for CSR in my syncrosoft dongle, because when I bought it it used syncrosoft, afterwards they got rid of it.

I would prefer syncrosoft, simply because it works, which Ilok doesn't seem to do.

My experience is exact the opposite.

I do still have a syncrosoft dongle though... but I am happy the software isn't on my computer anymore.

[kmmcdonald]

Defending dongles puts the user in the awkward position of adopting a position that is not in his/her self interest. I don't understand that. I wish everyone could prosper, but I don't have the time to care whether a SW vendor survives or not.

I will tolerate a dongle only when the value of a donglized product is so great and the product is so unique that I am willing to suffer dongle maintenance (not to mention indignity) to use it. So far, the only product that has made that cut for me is KDLE and KALE (the Korg VST's). I use Virsyn Cube 2 (which presently does not use a dongle), and if the next version of Cube is donglized like other recent Virsyn products have been, I will dump Cube 2. There are other additive synthesis VST's available that can easily meet my needs.

I have a few questions:

1) Is a user of pirated software likely to buy the product if a pirated version was not available, and does the pirate user indeed represent lost sales?

2) How do some SW vendors thrive using pirating deterrence techniques without resorting to dongles?

thanks

Keith

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by kmmcdonald

I will tolerate a dongle only when the value of a donglized product is so great and the product is so unique that I am willing to suffer dongle maintenance (not to mention indignity) to use it.

Dongle maintenance? What are you talking about?

You download the licenses to the dongle once and then you just insert it into whatever computer you want to run the software or plugin that requires that license. You might need to update the ilok software from time to time, that's it.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by kmmcdonald

Defending dongles puts the user in the awkward position of adopting a position that is not in his/her self interest. I don't understand that. I wish everyone could prosper, but I don't have the time to care whether a SW vendor survives or not.

thanks

Keith

I think it IS in my self-interest so that they continue to develop the libraries I use to make a living as a composer.

[kmmcdonald]

Geert:

Dongle maintenance: having to upgrade the dongle software whenever I upgrade the VST's which are "protected" by the dongle. These periodic updates have been the case for me. This step is a nuisance, made even more so because my electronic music PC not being connected to the internet for security reasons.

Ashermusic:

If your libraries were not protected by a dongle, or were protected by some other means which did not employ a dongle, would those libraries become unavailable, or would the vendor go out of business because they did not employ a dongle?

Again, I must wonder top what extent users of pirated software represent lost sales and to what degree they represent an actual threat to the SW providers.

As an aside, I do not make my living with music software. However, I am a design engineering manager for a large communications system provider, and very little (less than 1%?) of the software which we use for development purposes is protected by a dongle. This software is analogous to music SW used by those who compose and produce professionally. Also, some of these development tools (SW) are provided by firms which are relatively small, comparable to some music SW providers. I don't know why dongles have become relatively prevalent by comparison for consumers of music development products.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by kmmcdonald

Geert:

Dongle maintenance: having to upgrade the dongle software whenever I upgrade the VST's which are "protected" by the dongle. These periodic updates have been the case for me. This step is a nuisance, made even more so because my electronic music PC not being connected to the internet for security reasons.

Having your DAW not connected to the internet is something I didn't think of when reading your post, but I do think that's a minor nuisance. Updating is not always required for every new plugin that you install.

And if it is required, it's as simple as using an USB stick on your computer that IS connected to the internet and download the new installer. And if that is a step too much you could always connect your DAW to the other computer in a closed network.

Not having an internet connection on your DAW is a lot bigger problem when you have to authorize your software with challenge response, or if you have to make a telephone call to Adobe...

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

My experience is exact the opposite.

I do still have a syncrosoft dongle though... but I am happy the software isn't on my computer anymore.

I mean works as in prevents cracks. Ilok does not seem to do this, syncrosoft yes. Both ILok and syncrosoft work on my computer.

[Geert van den Berg]

Okay I understand your point now.

My point was that that dongle didn't work on my system. It could have been due to the plugin though, but it caused my whole system to be unstable. Removed the stuff, problem gone.

The percentage of plugins protected by ilok is much higher so obviously there will be more cracked versions of that software as well. Usually it's older versions of the cracked software, updated versions will still be protected. There will be an updated ilok soon...

[Silver Sonya]

Audio Damage and Fab Filter are two financially thriving independent companies who don't use dongles.

That list is long, too.

It's a myth that having a dongle increases your profitability.

- c

[JustinAiken]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Audio Damage and Fab Filter are two financially thriving independent companies who don't use dongles.

Yes, I bought the Fabfilter bundle over Soundtoys bundle... two big options I was considering, but Fabfilter's fun and friendly CP beat out Soundtoy's iLok...

[dsstudio]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

If your skill depends that much on having something other people don't, you're doing it wrong. Furthermore you're only kidding yourself, because at least a hundred competitors will have what you have - and legit, too.

It's your skills that make you attractive to customers, not how fast you get a plugin. If that was the case the warezbunnies would've bankrupted you already.

Your commends made me laugh, you are obviously not serious in your music business (if you even have one).
I did not say I depends that much on having something other people don't... Software/Plug-in for me is a tool, skill aside, you need good tools to work...

warezbunnies does not have anything to do with me... My point was - I will buy something only if I feel my investment is safe.
sonny

[Nahuel]

I like my ilok cause recently released products protected by ilok are not available on peer to peer networks: this mean my 15 years old neighbour cant laught at me when I tell him I spent 1/4 of my month salary to buy my latest peice of software... I never felt really comfortable with spending my cash on stuff other ppl get for free, money cost too much work. And I dont give a shyt about being a good cityzen. Developpers protect your stuff or lower your prices if you want my cash.

[junior]

Originally Posted by kmmcdonald

I will tolerate a dongle only when the value of a donglized product is so great and the product is so unique that I am willing to suffer dongle maintenance (not to mention indignity) to use it. So far, the only product that has made that cut for me is KDLE and KALE (the Korg VST's).

That's pretty much how I feel about Cubase. I sat out the update from SX3 to C4, but I finally had to break down and upgrade to C5. However, when Reaper catches up feature-wise (like TimeWarp), it'll be the last $200 upgrade I'll be sending to Steinberg. After that, no more dongles for me.

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by dsstudio

I did not buy Vienna Instruments back in the day they don't have dongle protection.
They earn my money (lots of money) because they are now using dongle.
I wouldn't buy ANYTHING (Software) knowing that the next day, every kids/competitors around all have it by downloading it.
Logic/Apple made me dissaponted by abandon dongle (everybody around me now having Logic)
My point is, if you are serious in the business, you'll love or need dongles.
Just my opinion, developers should take note.
Sonny

Why does it matter if someone else steals it? I thought it was important to have what works for you. If a piece of soft is great and you buy it, but someone else steals it, the software remains great. Or the arrogant factor is important?

By arrogant factor I mean the part of you that tells you that a software is crap because everyone can use it, therefore you feel less priviliged.

I mean, you say that you did not buy Vienna because everyone could use it. Was the sound great? Yes. Did you buy it? No, because everyone could sound great.

Maybe some people should start using software by using their ears, and not the copy protectin method used. Using a dongle or not does not change the sound.

Anyway, from my point of view, dongles are crap, because they don't give nothing useful to the user; it's not in the interest of the user. Great dongles are ones that actually give something, like DSP cards.
Just a thought.