What is the big deal about dongle hate?

[EstateMatt]

the issue for me, is software that doesn't give you a 30 demo buffer. I've never once lost the use of Max/MSP because it gives you 30 days to demo so if something screws up, it stays working.

I've lost tons of business when my ilok screws up.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

DON'T BUY DONGLE PROTECTED SOFTWARE - IF WE REFUSE TO USE IT, IT WILL GO AWAY.

I'm with John.

Vote with your wallet and consign the curse of the dongle to a regrettable footnote in the history of music software development.

[Duardo]

Well, obviously you're an apologist for the dongle companies.

Yes, I know, everyone who disagrees with you is an apologist. Good argument.

I, like several others who have chimed in on this thread, have used software with various forms of copy protection over the years, and simply find the current dongles...and specifically, the iLok, mainly because it has become so universal (although I've never had any issues with a Synchrosoft dongle either)...to be the most hassle-free one I've encountered so far.

It's pretty obvious that you never work where your system is exposed to the public, or even to numbers of musicians - things walk off, expecially small things. I'm glad you never lost one or had one stolen - you're lucky.

It may seem obvious to you, but you are not correct. And luck has little, if anything, to do with it...when I have valuable things in my possession I take measures to ensure that they remain in my possession.

I would say that it's pretty obvious to me that you never work where you need to move from one system to another frequently, but knowing as little about you as I do I wouldn't make such an assumption so quickly.

Yes, I absolutely did compare dongles to Jim Crow laws. Pro Audio people are the "N-words" of the software market and I, for one, happen to resent it deeply. You should too.

Thanks for the advice. While I do take all of this stuff seriously, my advice to you would be to maybe take this stuff just a little less seriously. And perhaps not to make such comparisons in public, especially in the presence of people who did live during the time of the Jim Crow laws.

[PELicanWord]

Originally Posted by Revmen

The funny part is that dongles are ment to make life harder for the pirates but instead it's the ones who pay for their software that suffers. Ironic.

^^^This.

It's absolutely ridiculous. After my Logic 7 dongle was stolen and was told I was shit out of luck, I didn't feel bad one bit about using a "borrowed" copy of Logic 8 (which doesn't require a dongle?! WTF>?!?)

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Yes, I know, everyone who disagrees with you is an apologist. Good argument.

I, like several others who have chimed in on this thread, have used software with various forms of copy protection over the years, and simply find the current dongles...and specifically, the iLok, mainly because it has become so universal (although I've never had any issues with a Synchrosoft dongle either)...to be the most hassle-free one I've encountered so far.


It may seem obvious to you, but you are not correct. And luck has little, if anything, to do with it...when I have valuable things in my possession I take measures to ensure that they remain in my possession.

I would say that it's pretty obvious to me that you never work where you need to move from one system to another frequently, but knowing as little about you as I do I wouldn't make such an assumption so quickly.


Thanks for the advice. While I do take all of this stuff seriously, my advice to you would be to maybe take this stuff just a little less seriously. And perhaps not to make such comparisons in public, especially in the presence of people who did live during the time of the Jim Crow laws.

I, myself lived during the Civil Rights Era and was an active participant, just as I am now an active participant in advocating the demise of dongles - and a whole bunch of other various issues.

I'm happy for you that your security is so great that nothing of value has ever been stolen from you. However I suggest that your colossal arrogance on that matter is tempting fate.

[Duardo]

It's fairly obvious to me that you take this much more seriously than I do. It wouldn't ever occur to me to compare copy protection to the Civil Rights movement.

I never said that I've never had anything of value stolen from me.

I also don't think that I'm arrogant about that, and certainly not colossally so...but if any of my equipment was stolen, including my iLok, I'd be pissed at the person who stole the iLok...not at the companies who didn't replace my licenses for me. I would certainly appreciate it if anyone did, but would not feel entitled to that.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Duardo

It's fairly obvious to me that you take this much more seriously than I do. It wouldn't ever occur to me to compare copy protection to the Civil Rights movement.

I never said that I've never had anything of value stolen from me.

I also don't think that I'm arrogant about that, and certainly not colossally so...but if any of my equipment was stolen, including my iLok, I'd be pissed at the person who stole the iLok...not at the companies who didn't replace my licenses for me. I would certainly appreciate it if anyone did, but would not feel entitled to that.

And complacent - it's your rights that are being violated here.

[audionickw]

these guys have dongle envy. be proud of your dongle! let it swing in the breeze. do not be ashamed

[Duardo]

My rights aren't being violated at all. As I said, I prefer the dongle to other forms of copy protection, based on past experiences I've had. I like the portability that the iLok gives me...before Waves made the iLok mandatory I still chose that as my option because it let me use my plugins on several different systems. Of course, I'd prefer no copy management at all, but I'd also like the people who make the software I use to stay in business so I don't have a problem with the minor inconveniences it may pose.

You may feel like your rights are being violated, but you have the right not to use software that uses dongles (which you have said you are doing). My rights are not being violated at all, and I'm not being complacent...I just don't have a problem with dongles, especially compared to other forms of copy protection.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

And complacent - it's your rights that are being violated here.

Hahahahaha

Are you kidding?

Do you know what a EULA is?

Your only real rights in this matter are the ones that the software company says you have.

[SANDS]

Originally Posted by kpaw

I'm a bit confused about this. I've been using Cubase4 for two years on my main machine and a laptop. I find that having to use a dongle is no big deal. Yet, I've read people who hate dongles with so much venom that you'd swear that the only thing worse than a dongle is total nuclear warfare. 90% of the time I never even see it, as it is plugged into my machine. If I need a quick remote recording on my laptop all I have to do is pull the thing out of my main machine and make sure I don't lose it.

The only downside I see is if you lose it or somehow break it and can't get it replaced. What's the deal here? What am I missing?

Pretty easy to explain about the complaints. I have posted about it on another thread about iloks and dongles. When you move around alot from session to session at different locations it gets to be a big pain, especially when you have multiples for different daws and such. You get to location and remember ahh f**k that dongle is in my mac at home etc....When sessions run late and you are tired as hell it is very easy to leave it in the computer. I'm also lazy and have a basement and a jam room upstairs in my house, I can't tell you how many trips I have made for that one.

I have also used cubase for years now and those dongles do wear out. The crappy leads have a life that isn't as long as one would think if you are moving from machine to machine all the time. I bought a hub back when I bought SX3 for that very purpose. Now using 5 I do the same. It helps, but still is easy to forget about.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Duardo

My rights aren't being violated at all. As I said, I prefer the dongle to other forms of copy protection, based on past experiences I've had. I like the portability that the iLok gives me...before Waves made the iLok mandatory I still chose that as my option because it let me use my plugins on several different systems. Of course, I'd prefer no copy management at all, but I'd also like the people who make the software I use to stay in business so I don't have a problem with the minor inconveniences it may pose.

You may feel like your rights are being violated, but you have the right not to use software that uses dongles (which you have said you are doing). My rights are not being violated at all, and I'm not being complacent...I just don't have a problem with dongles, especially compared to other forms of copy protection.

And there were black people in the old South who were just fine with their jobs as maids and butlers. They were known as "Uncle Toms"...

Every time you purchase a dongle protected program you are selling the rest of us out.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Hahahahaha

Are you kidding?

Do you know what a EULA is?

Your only real rights in this matter are the ones that the software company says you have.

Wrong. Again, they get away with it only because we let them.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Wrong. Again, they get away with it only because we let them.

How exactly is that wrong?

You really don't know what you are talking about.

[mikymike]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Well, obviously you're an apologist for the dongle companies.

It's pretty obvious that you never work where your system is exposed to the public, or even to numbers of musicians - things walk off, expecially small things. I'm glad you never lost one or had one stolen - you're lucky.

Concerning Waves - their "upgrade policy" is a sham, considering that they are on a one to two year upgrade cycle, which means that if you but their stuff shortly after it comes out you get no upgrades. And forcing you to upgrade ALL your Waves plugins just because you bought a new one of a newer software generation is unconscionable and dishonest. Should I have to replace all my compressors in my rack simply because I want to add a new piece of hardware? This is especially egregious since Waves has not actually upgraded the actual PROGRAM of many (perhaps most) of their plugins for a long time - the only "upgrade" is the new version of the copy protection!

If I have a non-dongleized program and my laptop gets ripped I can simply re-install. The worst that might happen is that I might have to email a scan of my software package to the company to get a new online registration - but that's not likely as I never use online registration because my DAW is not on the internet - ever - and I keep records of my authorization codes, usually written on the CD with a Sharpie.

Yes, I absolutely did compare dongles to Jim Crow laws. Pro Audio people are the "N-words" of the software market and I, for one, happen to resent it deeply. You should too.

Did you just call me a ni@@#%?

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by mikymike

Did you just call me a ni@@#%?

We are all "ni@@#%s" to the software companies.

[Duardo]

I have posted about it on another thread about iloks and dongles. When you move around alot from session to session at different locations it gets to be a big pain, especially when you have multiples for different daws and such.

Sure, if you forget your dongle it's a pain...if you forget anything you're supposed to bring with you, it's a pain...but isn't that still better than not having the option to bring your plugins with you at all?

Every time you purchase a dongle protected program you are selling the rest of us out.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Right...because I disagree with you I'm an apologist, my equipment has never been exposed to anyone, I'm colossally arrogant, I'm complacent, and in using software that uses dongles for protection I'm selling you out. Do I have that right?

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

We are all "ni@@#%s" to the software companies.

Please answer my question.

Or do all your posts contain such hyperbole?

Err wait. They do.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

The dongle can, under certain circumstances, hog as much as 30% of you available cpu.

Evidence please?

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Please answer my question.

Or do all your posts contain such hyperbole?

Err wait. They do.

Not all...... some, especially when the subject involves the nexus of commercialism and politics, which this one does.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Nuno_F

Evidence please?

There is existing evidence, but posting it here would be contrary to site policy. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

There is existing evidence, but posting it here would be contrary to site policy. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.

Sooo answer my question!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Sooo answer my question!

OK, I'll spell it out for you - the only way to determine this is to reverse engineer the software. This has been done, but it is illegal in the USA. Posting links to illegal stuff is a no-no on this site, so I'm not going to do it. Sorry.

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by kpaw

I'm a bit confused about this. I've been using Cubase4 for two years on my main machine and a laptop. I find that having to use a dongle is no big deal. Yet, I've read people who hate dongles with so much venom that you'd swear that the only thing worse than a dongle is total nuclear warfare. 90% of the time I never even see it, as it is plugged into my machine. If I need a quick remote recording on my laptop all I have to do is pull the thing out of my main machine and make sure I don't lose it.

The only downside I see is if you lose it or somehow break it and can't get it replaced. What's the deal here? What am I missing?

Cause you can't get cracks. (Talking Dsp-dongles).

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

OK, I'll spell it out for you - the only way to determine this is to reverse engineer the software. This has been done, but it is illegal in the USA. Posting links to illegal stuff is a no-no on this site, so I'm not going to do it. Sorry.

No. Are you learning disabled? Do you not know what question I am talking about? The one I have been begging REPEATEDLY you to answer because you so rudely said I was wrong then had no explanation for why you thought so?

Do you know what a EULA is?

Your only real rights in this matter are the ones that the software company says you have.

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Why hate dongles? Because they're abusive copy protection that has been rejected by users of every other kind of software there is - piracy in graphics software is FAR more rampant than in pro audio but you don't see Adobe and Autodesk using it. Why? Because their customers won't stand for it.

Why don't I like dongles? Because I don't like having my ability to use the product I paid for tied to a little device that is easily lost or stolen, can fail (all active electronic devices can fail), costs extra (companies used to GIVE you the dongle - now you have to buy it), and lends itself to insane protection schemes such as that currently used by Waves that can result in extreme cases of having to pay for re-registering your new product if you blow the initial installation - paying a second time. I also assist companies in instituting "forced upgrade" policies - where installing the latest version of one of their products disables all older versions of their products, forcing you to pay again for what you already paid for - even if there's no benefit to the new version beyond the "upgraded" protection.

Because if your laptop with your dongle gets stolen most companies will not re-authorize your software on a new dongle and system because "there's already one copy in use".

Because if something happens and the company does actually accept that you have a legitimate problem and agrees to help you're still out of business for several days instead of just being able to re-install on a new system.

There are lots of other reasons as well, but you'll have to look them up in those other threads......

DON'T BUY DONGLE PROTECTED SOFTWARE - IF WE REFUSE TO USE IT, IT WILL GO AWAY.

Maybe that's because you never had an original idea you want to protect??

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

No. Are you learning disabled? Do you not know what question I am talking about? The one I have been begging REPEATEDLY you to answer because you so rudely said I was wrong then had no explanation for why you thought so?

Do you know what a EULA is?

Your only real rights in this matter are the ones that the software company says you have.

Software companies are not law making bodies. EULAs frequently force customers to agree to things that would be unenforceable under law if anybody put up a serious challenge. The only reason they get away with that crap is because they are organized and we are not and they have a F*CK of a lot more money to spend on lawyers than any individual or small group of consumers.

The DMCA was passed, essentially raping centuries of statutary and common law copyright precedent, because Disney was afraid of losing the copyright on Mickey Mouse and threw a huge pot of money at the legislators to get the law rewritten their way - and the idiot consumers, in their complacency, failed to see the problem until the law had been passed.

Wouild you purchase a car if the warranty read like the typical software EULA? I think not. Would you purchase a car if you couldn't have a spare set of keys? Again, I think not.

Again, IT IS OUR COMPLACENCY THAT ALLOWS THE SOFTWARE COMPANIES TO GET AWAY WITH ABUSIVE PRACTICES.

The software companies DO NOT DICTATE OUR RIGHTS, unless we allow them to. CONGRESS is the only body that can say what our rights are, not some commercial, profit above all company -UNLESS WE DO NOT STAND UP FOR OURSELVES.

"THE PRICE OF FREEDOM IS ETERNAL VIGILANCE" - Thomas Jefferson

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Jamzone

Maybe that's because you never had an original idea you want to protect??

The law as it existed prior to the DMCA was fine for that purpose. And it is not necessary to step on the right of legitimate customers in order to protect our ideas.

[John Eppstein]

Mayor999 - I'm not certain which of your asinine questions you are referring to, but -

Yes, I am dead serious.

Yes, I know what an EULA is - it is an abusive quasi-legal document that attempts to force customers of software companies to relinquish their rights to a product that works properly, as advertised, and does the job it is sold to do. It also attempts to absolve said companies of any responsibility for damages resulting from the use of their product. Most EULA attempt to require consumers to repudiate certain rights that have traditionally been theirs either by federal statute or by common law.

Maybe you don't understand it, but this is, in fact, the civil rights question of the new millennium. It has direct parallels in both the Civil Rights Movement of the last half of the 20th century and the miner's and railroad worker's movements of 50 and 100 years before that, and EVERY TIME THE PEOPLE HAVE STOOD UP FOR THEMSELVES THE DISPUTE HAS BEEN SETTLED IN FAVOR OF THE PEOPLE, sometimes after considerable bloodshed on the part of those standing up for their rights. Nobody said it was easy.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Jamzone

Maybe that's because you never had an original idea you want to protect??

I've had several - but the law as it is currently implemented does not do a good job of protecting small inventors against corporate interests.