Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0?
Old 9th June 2009
  #1
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0?

Hi all,

Hobby level user here, mainly a bass player, but also guitar, like to record reasonably diverse stuff... blues, metal, funky jazz....

I'm looking for something middle of the road in terms of complexity, I think and I narrowed it down to these two choices. (Superior 2.0 or addictive)

I'd like the program to come with some loops and decent presets, for easiness off the get go, when I don't want to program the drums first thing. Basically just use it as a click track with a bit more character.

I'll probably end up tapping in beats on a trigger pad/rough quantize/midi edit to finish the drums though, so I don't necessarily want to most pre-done plugin (i.e. I don't think EZ Drummer is what I'm looking for). However, I'm not above using the loops in the final product if the shoe fits.

From what I've read these two programs seem to make the most sense for me, but there's no demo for Superior 2.0, so I'm asking for opinions. People seem to like SSD a lot, but I don't think it comes with loops... I DO however have Jamstix, so that could be a rough substitute for the loops.

Not too concerned about price as I have some store credit to burn through...

Any opinions welcome...

Thanks
TMANIAC
Old 9th June 2009
  #2
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Cover'd's Avatar
Superior Drummer for me

Great piece of kit and the available grooves & patterns for EZPlayer make it a brilliant all round package ( demo here: EZplayer pro Tutorial )

Just hope that you don't get seduced by all the wonderful and must have expansion packs though!
Old 9th June 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 

I love Addictive Drums. I have not used Superior however.
Old 9th June 2009
  #4
Gear maniac
 

If you want to go even cheaper, EZ Drummer is great and has a vast library of loops. Plus you can buy expansion kits for about $80 a piece. I have heard great things about Superior 2.0 though. As soon as I get really tired of the sounds in EZ Drummer I plan on going to superior
Old 9th June 2009
  #5
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Thanks guys...

From my searchings, people who have used both EZ Drummer and Addictive tend to prefer Addictive... but I don't know if I've read of anyone who has used both S2.0 and AD extensively...
Old 9th June 2009
  #6
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

S2.0 rocks!!
Old 9th June 2009
  #7
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I've used them all.

S2 without a doubt. It might take you a little longer to get around on the interface but once you do, you will be able to cover any style and can make it sound more like real drums than AD.

If you want midi loops, then the EZ player has great loops and is very easy to use.
Old 9th June 2009
  #8
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not sure if this is a concern for you but addictive drums is very cpu efficient and loads quickly
Old 9th June 2009
  #9
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Hmmm... good point... I hadn't checked sys reqs yet... just looked, Superior 2 should probably be ok... I have a C2D e6400 with 4 GB ram...
Old 10th June 2009
  #10
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chrisso's Avatar
 

Yes, check out the requirements as Superior can get hungry.
Superior now contains a large number of editable drum performances in the guise of midi-files.
Honestly, you can get a very realistic drum part going very quickly just by dragging and dropping, no beat programming required.

There are two separate midi only packs (Monster Midi $20), and there are now two Superior expansion sample sets that both contain a lot of midi performances, with more S2 expansion packs on the way.
Old 10th June 2009
  #11
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AMIEL's Avatar
is not the sound of Addictive Drums very unnatural and plastic?
heard the demo and the hi hat sounds terrible...
The Kicks and Snare does not have body.

any opinions?
Old 10th June 2009
  #12
Gear Head
 

SSD 3.0

There is NO other choice for greatness!!!!!
Old 10th June 2009
  #13
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 

the thing that was great about addictive drums was that it was one of the first drumset sample players to include a vast array of plugins and has a set of "channel strip" type effects for each channel in the plugin including distortion, compression, EQ, etc... This gave the plugin an ENORMOUS amount of sounds while only coming with 3 drumsets and a few additional kicks and snares.

EZ Drummer has no effects built in. The samples are dry, as are the original Superior and the original BFD. After additctive drums, BFD2 came out with effects built in and now Superior 2.0 has effects built in. Now the value comes back to the amount of sounds/addons you can get and how good the effects within the player sound.

From what I've heard in demos and using them briefly... they all sound good. Superior can use all the add on sounds from EZ drummer and Superior 1.0. BFD2 can use all the addons/xpansions from BFD 1.0... So really it just boils down to which add ons you like better and if you think the built in effects in one are better/easier to use than the other.
Old 10th June 2009
  #14
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feck's Avatar
Hands down Superior 2. With all the expansion packs, the Metal Foundry coming, effects, unbelievable v-drum playability, offline one-click bouncing with automatic overload rebounce, and of course sick sounds, this is the new powerhouse drum software. Those Toontrack guys know what the hell they are doing...haven't touched AD since I got it, and don't really plan to.
Old 10th June 2009
  #15
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chrisso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post

From what I've heard in demos and using them briefly... they all sound good. ... So really it just boils down to which add ons you like better and if you think the built in effects in one are better/easier to use than the other.
I agree.

Quote:
EZ Drummer has no effects built in. The samples are dry, as are the original Superior and the original BFD.
Not quite true.
I don't know what you mean by dry, but EZdrummer and it's expansions take advantage of the room ambience where they were recorded.
This (as in many a professional situation) largely negates the need for reverb.
Also, EZdrummer and the expansion EZX's are pre-processed by experienced recording engineers (eq and compression).
So in both respects it isn't really accurate to say EZdrummer is 'dry' like the original Superior.
Old 10th June 2009
  #16
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I agree.



Not quite true.
I don't know what you mean by dry, but EZdrummer and it's expansions take advantage of the room ambience where they were recorded.
This (as in many a professional situation) largely negates the need for reverb.
Also, EZdrummer and the expansion EZX's are pre-processed by experienced recording engineers (eq and compression).
So in both respects it isn't really accurate to say EZdrummer is 'dry' like the original Superior.
We aren't quite on the same page here... Just because there is a room mic and a compressed room mic, doesn't mean you don't need reverb. What if you wanted a gated Nonlinear verb sound? No room mic is going to sound like that.

Second, when I say dry...I mean dry. No EQ, no compression, no filters, no saturation or distortion, no pitch shifting, etc.

Third, any experienced recording engineer will tell you that adding EQ and Compression BEFORE the rest of the song is recorded or without knowing what the rest of the song sounds like is worthless. Most of those EZdrummer expansions were processed by themselves without any other instruments being played. So sure they sound great on their own, but once you add a bass guitar and an electric guitar the pieces of the puzzle don't fit together.

Andy Johns is the only one I know of that has done it right so far. When making his signature library for Platinum Sounds, he hired a bass player and a guitarist to jam with the drummer in the studio as he was getting sounds for each drumset. And then he did only a minimal amount of EQ from the board, no compression, but recorded a "compressed buss" of the drums that are mapped to the PZM mic location inside the plugin. When you listen to the sounds by themselves they sound bright and thin... but once you start adding bass and guitar and piano to them, it sounds like a record! Add to that the ability to add EQ, compression, verb, and other effects to the individual mic positions WITHIN the plugin (BFD2.0) and now you have something that is really kick ass.

I own EZ drummer with almost all the expansions (don't have the nashville one). I own Addictive Drums. I own BFD. I own the original DFH Superior. I have used them all to make lots and lots of CDs. I'm speaking from experience here. Having the ability to add and manipulate the effects within the plugin is a big plus. So while I'm sure you own EZ Drummer and know what it is like... Until you buy Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0 or BFD2, you won't really understand what I mean when I say that EZ Drummer samples/sounds are dry. Once you use some of these other plugins you will say, "oh, I get it now!!!"
Old 10th June 2009
  #17
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s_sibs's Avatar
 

Quote:
when I say dry...I mean dry. No EQ, no compression, no filters, no saturation or distortion, no pitch shifting, etc.
EZdrummer does, indeed, have EQ, filtering, and compression added to the samples so, no, they aren't 'dry' as you say. That's the point of EZD and it's EZXs expansion packs. Much more 'pre mixed' than any of the Superior line.

I do agree with you about adding too much processing to sounds before other instruments are in place. I think some of these 'processed' drum libraries paint you into a corner that you may have to find your way out of but, unfortunately, that is the price we pay for 'now' generation we're in. Things need to sound finished much before they should sound finished and that's just the world we live in. Good or bad, I ain't judging how users work. If someone with no mixing experience wants drum sound that sound 'finished' without lifting a finger...who am I to judge?

Quote:
Until you buy Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0 or BFD2, you won't really understand what I mean when I say that EZ Drummer samples/sounds are dry.
I do think Chris 'understands' what you mean. He's quite familiar with Superior since he's the man behind the drums for C&V. I'm not sure we can all agree with your interpretation of the term 'dry'.
Old 10th June 2009
  #18
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Dysanfel's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TManiac View Post
Hi all,

Hobby level user here, mainly a bass player, but also guitar, like to record reasonably diverse stuff... blues, metal, funky jazz....

I'm looking for something middle of the road in terms of complexity, I think and I narrowed it down to these two choices. (Superior 2.0 or addictive)

I'd like the program to come with some loops and decent presets, for easiness off the get go, when I don't want to program the drums first thing. Basically just use it as a click track with a bit more character.

I'll probably end up tapping in beats on a trigger pad/rough quantize/midi edit to finish the drums though, so I don't necessarily want to most pre-done plugin (i.e. I don't think EZ Drummer is what I'm looking for). However, I'm not above using the loops in the final product if the shoe fits.

From what I've read these two programs seem to make the most sense for me, but there's no demo for Superior 2.0, so I'm asking for opinions. People seem to like SSD a lot, but I don't think it comes with loops... I DO however have Jamstix, so that could be a rough substitute for the loops.

Not too concerned about price as I have some store credit to burn through...

Any opinions welcome...

Thanks
TMANIAC
I have used both. I bought Addictive Drums. I believe the MIDI grooves are easier to use and the GUI is more attractive. The sound quality is about the same, but Addictive Drums has a far smaller footprint in terms of hard drive space.
Old 10th June 2009
  #19
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chrisso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
We aren't quite on the same page here... Just because there is a room mic and a compressed room mic, doesn't mean you don't need reverb. What if you wanted a gated Nonlinear verb sound? No room mic is going to sound like that.
Second, when I say dry...I mean dry. No EQ, no compression, no filters, no saturation or distortion, no pitch shifting, etc.
Third, any experienced recording engineer will tell you that adding EQ and Compression BEFORE the rest of the song is recorded or without knowing what the rest of the song sounds like is worthless.
Yes, s_sibs is correct. I think I covered all bases with regards to both normal and abnormal uses of the term 'dry'.
I didn't expect to be taken to task on the various qualities and value judgements of different products, ho hum .

You described the EZdrummer sound set as dry, which normally associated with no reverb and/or no room ambience. You also expanded your comment (above) to include 'no eq, no compression etc...'
I'm merely trying to set the record straight for the many forum members who might read this looking for an accurate description of the EZdrummer samples and their associated expansion packs.
They are by and large not 'dry' (in the most accepted use of the term), in that most of the kits were recorded in large ambient spaces and mic'ed in such a way as you can employ those natural ambiences in your project.
All the sounds in the EZdrummer platform have been pre-processed with at least eq, and often compression too. They are designed to be 'plug and play' so to speak.

If you want to use digital reverb, or if you dislike the processing in EZdrummer and think Andy Johns is the only engineer who's done it right. That's your valid opinion, but unfortunately far from the statement I was trying to correct.
It would probably be more accurate if you said you didn't think the ambience on the EZdrummer sounds was enough to negate the use of a reverb, and that you thought the processing wasn't the same quality as Platinum Sample's Andy Johns package.
However, to repeat.....
The sounds are not 'dry' in that they are mostly recorded in an ambient room (whether or not you feel truly wet drums need an artificial reverberation added).
The sounds are not 'dry' in that they are all studio processed by the Toontrack team (whether or not you like what they've done).

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_sibs View Post
I do think Chris 'understands' what you mean. He's quite familiar with Superior since he's the man behind the drums for C&V. I'm not sure we can all agree with your interpretation with the term 'dry'.
Bingo.
Old 10th June 2009
  #20
Gear nut
 
mikeroephonics's Avatar
 

I like to jump in here temporarily and just say 'Custom & Vintage' is a wonderful library. I just loaded up the DVDs back to my HDD a few days ago and almost forgot how great the sounds are. The library is discontinued, but the sounds from that library *might* be available in other Toontrack products. Chris, do you know if this is true?

- Mike
Old 10th June 2009
  #21
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
the sounds from that library *might* be available in other Toontrack products. Chris, do you know if this is true?
Thanks for the kind words.

Some (pre-processed) sounds from C&V can be found in the EZX Vintage Rock.
Also, Custom & Vintage is enroute to be re-released in a native S2 version before the end of this year (I hope).
Old 10th June 2009
  #22
Lives for gear
 

A few points.
@Amiel- No , I do not agree, particularly on the dry patches.

Like ALL good sample libraries/V.I.s, these sound real until you put them next to the real thing. When I need the real thing, I hire a real drummer.

However, when I do not need real, only "sounds good" then I want to able to do so reasonably quickly, and for me, the combo of Addictive Drums and Stylus RM allows me to do just that.

Oh, and when someone lists a product and says it is the ONLY one that is worth having, that is a person whose advice you should disregard because thy have too big an emotional investment in having made the "right" choice.
Old 10th June 2009
  #23
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_sibs View Post
EZdrummer does, indeed, have EQ, filtering, and compression added to the samples so, no, they aren't 'dry' as you say.
so if you wanted to back the compression off the snare you could?
Old 10th June 2009
  #24
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The sounds are not 'dry' in that they are mostly recorded in an ambient room (whether or not you feel truly wet drums need an artificial reverberation added).
The sounds are not 'dry' in that they are all studio processed by the Toontrack team (whether or not you like what they've done).
Fair enough... I will rephrase my comment per your request...

The sounds are "dry" in that you CANNOT change/undo anything that has already been done to them. Better?
Old 10th June 2009
  #25
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s_sibs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
so if you wanted to back the compression off the snare you could?
No, the sounds are pre processed ie. before you buy them they are processed. You can, of course, add more processing but can't take away the pre processing that are on the samples in the product to begin with.

When you said 'dry' I thought you meant that there were no eq, compression etc. like in your post...

Quote:
when I say dry...I mean dry. No EQ, no compression, no filters, no saturation or distortion, no pitch shifting, etc.
My point was that they aren't 'dry'. They have eq, compression, filters, added to the samples by Toontrack in EZdrummer.
Old 10th June 2009
  #26
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
so if you wanted to back the compression off the snare you could?
As above....
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_sibs View Post
When you said 'dry' I thought you meant that there were no eq, compression etc. like in your post...
My point was that they aren't 'dry'. They have eq, compression, filters, added to the samples by Toontrack in EZdrummer.
Yeah, you are arguing with yourself here Etch-A-Sketch.
I mean you even contradict yourself. You initially said EZdrummer was 'dry' like Superior and BFD - no fx in your own use of the term 'dry'. Now you seem to be complaining you can't back off the compression.

No one is saying EZdrummer is the all-singing, all-dancing drum sampler.
It simply isn't true to say it is 'dry'.
Nine times out of ten in recording parlance 'dry' means no reverb or ambience, and sometimes it means no fx.
By any standards you couldn't call EZdrummer dry.
This has nothing to do with whether you feel it's a good product, or flexible, or better or worse than the competition, Scott and I are just sticking to the basic description of the product, which is what prospective customers want to know.
A truly small room, 'dry' sample library is my (soon to be re-issued) 'C&V' library.
Recently some retro - 60's and 70's sample sets have also become available.
It's a shame I 100% backed your comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
From what I've heard in demos and using them briefly... they all sound good. Superior can use all the add on sounds from EZ drummer and Superior 1.0. BFD2 can use all the addons/xpansions from BFD 1.0... So really it just boils down to which add ons you like better and if you think the built in effects in one are better/easier to use than the other.
But your reply to me was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
So while I'm sure you own EZ Drummer and know what it is like... Until you buy Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0 or BFD2, you won't really understand what I mean when I say that EZ Drummer samples/sounds are dry. Once you use some of these other plugins you will say, "oh, I get it now!!!"
tutt

Yeah, you're right, I've never bought Superior or Superior 2.
Old 11th June 2009
  #27
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 

OK... there has been some miscommunication and it seems to be my fault and my use of the term "dry".

I apologize...

EZ Drummer, Superior 1.0, and BFD 1.0 do not have any sort of effects built in. I believe we can all agree on that, no? The samples used in the plugin are what you get. In order to do anything to them you have to route individual outputs to auxes or audio tracks and process them outside the plugin. Because of this, I was referring to them as "dry" within the plugin... My mistake...

Addictive Drums, BFD 2 and Superior 2 have effects built into the plugin. I believe we can all agree on this, no? This allows you to have different sounds/presets within the plugin for the same drumset...ultimately giving you a wider palette of sounds with the same drumset samples.

By adding whatever EQ, compression, processing within the plugin by the manufacturer, they (in my terms) are giving the end user "wet" sounds that can be manipulated by the end user. If I don't like the compression that Toontrack ( or whoever else)decided to put on the snare for a particular drumset, then I can change it within the plugin myself.

To anyone's "end users"/"consumers" who are interested in buying one or the other... that is the difference.

My point being that originally Addictive drums was the first to include effects within the plugin (me calling that "wet) while all the others at that time did not have any effects within the plugin (me calling that "dry").

I then somewhat half heartedly went on a tanget/alluded to the fact that if a manufacturer is going to process samples themselves, they should give users the ability to undo that. Otherwise give us the un-doctored files, or at least try to do processing within the context of a musical example (don't get the drums to sound good by themself, but within the context of other instruments).

Now, with Superior 2 and BFD 2, both having effects built into the plugin... the difference between Addictive drums and the others is no longer the fact that one had effects and the other didn't... it is now more about the additional sounds/samples you can download for the player you have. Some companies have more available expansion packs than others and that becomes the biggest "selling point" right now.

To me it feels like you were trying to argue the use of a term which really had nothing to do with the topic. And from subsequent posts it seems like you use the term "dry" in your own marketing materials for your own products and that's why you decided to carry a torch for the correct use of the term, when to me it really doesn't seem to help or hinder any answers to the original poster's question.

I commend you on being able to turn this thread into an advertisement for your own products... and now, looking back, it starts to make sense why you chose to pick apart the terms "wet" and "dry" since you market your product as a 'dry' sample library...And wadda ya know, it's soon to be re-issued. How convenient for you that we were talking about this very issue!

Quote:
A truly small room, 'dry' sample library on the market is my (soon to be re-issued) 'C&V' library.
I hope this little debate has helped you sell a few more copies of your product. Should I give you an address to send my residuals for participating in your little advertisement?
Old 11th June 2009
  #28
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chrisso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post

EZ Drummer, Superior 1.0, and BFD 1.0 do not have any sort of effects built in. I believe we can all agree on that, no?
Agreed.

Quote:
I then somewhat half heartedly went on a tanget/alluded to the fact that if a manufacturer is going to process samples themselves, they should give users the ability to undo that.
Fair enough, although people who buy into the EZdrummer platform hopefully understand it's limitations going in.



Quote:
To me it feels like you were trying to argue the use of a term which really had nothing to do with the topic. And from subsequent posts it seems like you use the term "dry" in your own marketing materials for your own products and that's why you decided to carry a torch for the correct use of the term, when to me it really doesn't seem to help or hinder any answers to the original poster's question.
Oh brother.

Being a long time watcher of similar topics on the Gearslutz forum, as well as Toontrack's own forum, I'm afraid it's absolutely the case that potential buyers need accurate information, and if inaccurate information is put about the net, much confusion, and often bad purchasing decisions are made.
You said EZdrummer was 'dry'.
It was both recorded in a wet sounding room and contains samples with processing that cannot be removed.
So your post was both wrong and misleading - simple as that - end of story.
Scott and I just wanted to put that on record, as hundreds of potential EZdrummer customers read these discussion threads.

Quote:
I commend you on being able to turn this thread into an advertisement for your own products... and now, looking back, it starts to make sense why you chose to pick apart the terms "wet" and "dry" since you market your product as a 'dry' sample library...And wadda ya know, it's soon to be re-issued. How convenient for you that we were talking about this very issue!

I hope this little debate has helped you sell a few more copies of your product. Should I give you an address to send my residuals for participating in your little advertisement?
OK, so you didn't mislead and make an incorrect statement about a product I have no personal stake in (EZdrummer) which I and others simply corrected?

What you actually did was make a lot of patronising assumptions about me, with the clear implication that I was a little clueless compared to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
I have used them all to make lots and lots of CDs. I'm speaking from experience here. So while I'm sure you own EZ Drummer and know what it is like... Until you buy Addictive Drums or Superior 2.0 or BFD2, you won't really understand what I mean when I say that EZ Drummer samples/sounds are dry. Once you use some of these other plugins you will say, "oh, I get it now!!!"
So my input on this thread is all about self promotion, not setting the facts straight on the sound and features of EZdrummer, or my 'understanding' of drum software?

By the way, by the time my product makes another appearance, this discussion will be long forgotten.
My friendly advice is you should do a bit more research on the products you advise on, not to mention the people you talk down to.
(My full name appears in my signature on every post)
Old 11th June 2009
  #29
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
So I'm probably leaning towards S2.0 now... gonna mull it over a little longer.

Was also thinking of picking up a Korg nanoPad, anyone used one?

All this talk of dry makes me want a beer
Old 11th June 2009
  #30
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SyncSailor's Avatar
 

TManiac,

I'm going to pull up short of a full etymological discussion of the word "dry. But I will state that I just upgraded to SD2 a few months ago. Using the sounds from Custom & Vintage (which i've owned for 2 years) and the sounds from Avatar included in SD2, I can't imagine finding anything that fills my "natural" drum needs more than this combo. It really is incredible. And considering that i started in 1987 with a Linn 9000, I have tried many.

I will also say that Chrisso helped me get C&V set up correctly in my DAW and he seems to be a very trustworth person.

Syncsailor
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