Mac Pro 2009 Audio Interface / DA

[jazzymike]

Hello

I've recently purchased the early 2009 Mac Pro 8 Core
I'm a Logic Studio guy, recently pretty much 99% ITB

Now, of course, with the introduction of PCI-E the consideration is:
Apogee Symphony + Rosetta Converters or simply upgrading the old RME Multiface PCI to PCI-E or...

Basically I just need the lowest possible latency with logic and highest possible track/virtual instruments count.
Occasionally I would like to input a mono Daking FET, other than that NO additional inputs necessary.
2 analog outs for my Dynaudio monitors. That's it.

All in all, I need a strong DA while unleashing the glory of the new 8 core (16 core come logic 8.1)

[swafford]

Metric Halo

[Silvertone]

I just went the Lynx Aurora 16VT route with the AES16 PICe card... no latency and the least expensive route. Plus I like how Aurora converters "don't sound".

The Apogee route would work as well. It's all good stuff above a certain price point.

From what I read when researching the same thing is that these two options above will be a step up from the RME. This is only what I've read. I'm not familiar with RME stuff enough to comment on it.

I've owned both the Apogee and the Aurora's in the past and recently just bought two more Aurora converters... bang for the buck they are hard to beat. And I like the variable trim on the new model to calibrate it with all the other equipment in the facility.

Good luck on your research.

[Jorg]

I would just get the PCIe card for the RME

....just my opinion tho

[jazzymike]

Thank you very much for the replies so far.

swafford, when you say Metric Halo you mean their FW interfaces right?
Quite honestly I never really understood the principle of an FW interface within a desktop environment. Isn't that kind of a bottleneck? regardless of theoretical FW800 performance?

The whole beauty of pci-e is supposed to be the dedicated port and unique bandwidth.

Silvertone I on the other hand never really had any experience with Apogee, Lynx Aurora does sound very interesting, however where I live the pci-e + aurora 8 combo would come down to 3k+ Euro, which is hefty, also quite honestly I wouldn't find much use for the extra 6 in/outs any time soon. But in principle the Lynx combo should at least equal a Symphony combo from what I understand.

Jorg e, yeah my conscience and the bounty hunters would agree with that.. but the gearslut inside me.. however all jokes and esoteric converter considerations aside, don't you think the potential performance of the new 8core with logic would suffer with the 'old' Multiface technology? I'm very much a layman when it comes to understanding protocols such as CoreAudio vs what RME is using.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by swafford

Metric Halo

+1

From what the OP describes he wants, I'd say the Metric Halo ULN-2 is a no-brainer.

[swafford]

Originally Posted by jazzymike

Thank you very much for the replies so far.

swafford, when you say Metric Halo you mean their FW interfaces right?
Quite honestly I never really understood the principle of an FW interface within a desktop environment. Isn't that kind of a bottleneck? regardless of theoretical FW800 performance?

The whole beauty of pci-e is supposed to be the dedicated port and unique bandwidth.

Yes, that's what they sell, FW interfaces. You mean data bottleneck or what? What is unique bandwidth? Is that a technical term or metaphorical one?

I know guys chaining 2882's for 32 inputs and 48+ FW returns with near zero latency for monitoring and effects sends. I've worked with a mastering engineer who is using them for the quality of their plugs and D/A. I know studio owners using them for their marvelous summing and plugs for mixing.

If your problem with MH is a question of 'bottlenecks' you might want to hit up one of the MH guys that hang around here or the MH list for clarification. If you have a question of performance, you might want to quesry the MH list for input. These are guys and gals that use the gear 365 days a year in all kinds of pllaictions. I just record and mix with a ULN and 2882 out in the barn and never have an issue with 'bottlenecks' on my workstation or my laptop.

[funky monkey]

Lavry DA-10 and AD-10

just use a lightpipe to connect the Lavry Blacks and the Mac Pro and you'll get a solid and low latency setup

[A440]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

+1

From what the OP describes he wants, I'd say the Metric Halo ULN-2 is a no-brainer.

Metric Halo +2

2 ins 2 out then get a ULN-2

more in and outs just add 2882's till you're covered...

never had a bottle-neck.

Simples.

[cynics1207]

+ 1 for ULN-2.

[SANDS]

Originally Posted by funky monkey

Lavry DA-10 and AD-10

just use a lightpipe to connect the Lavry Blacks and the Mac Pro and you'll get a solid and low latency setup

I always wondered if that would work. When you say "Low Latency" what are we actually looking at here? 3ms? 6ms?

I have a Duet running at 24. 44.1 most of the time with around 24 tracks usually. I'm currently looking at an option of ad to da like you have stated. Can you give some more info on the latency while tracking?

[jazzymike]

Originally Posted by swafford

Yes, that's what they sell, FW interfaces. You mean data bottleneck or what? What is unique bandwidth? Is that a

unique bandwidth, indeed a metaphorical term..
okay let's get technical

FW800: the name says it all, max. Bandwidth of 800mb/s

PCI-E: depending on Bus factor (x4, x16 etc..) upwards of 2G/s

I agree, that most projects won't require much more than say 40tracks
...but... who knows how greedy plug-ins are gonna become in 2 years, etc.. one vendor published a possible count of 400 tracks with an URS channel strip on each using their PCI-E card.

That's my definition of 'bottleneck' the hard fact of 800MB/s on a FW device, no matter how grandiose its internal features.

That Lavry DA-10 sounds quite interesting actually.. as a matter of fact I'm gonna look into DAs that connect via AES/SPDIF/ADAT coupled with say an RME RayDAT, that might be the answer.

[emfrank72]

I may be crazy but how is 800 Mbs anwhere near an issue with 2 inputs and 2 outputs?
I don't think it really matters how many tracks you use as it will sum to 2 in your DAW.

[jazzymike]

emfrank72 That's actually a great question, as I've said I am absolutely not in the know when it comes to the actual protocol handling of audio interfaces. By your logic (which sounds plausible) even a USB 2 device should be able to handle a stereo out of an unlimited amount of tracks summed ITB (as long as the CPU can handle the work), correct?

we're not talking latency or anything fancy, simply the streaming of a high number of tracks.

Hope someone can clarify the bandwidth/protocol issue.

[swafford]

Originally Posted by jazzymike

unique bandwidth, indeed a metaphorical term..
okay let's get technical

FW800: the name says it all, max. Bandwidth of 800mb/s

PCI-E: depending on Bus factor (x4, x16 etc..) upwards of 2G/s

I agree, that most projects won't require much more than say 40tracks
...but... who knows how greedy plug-ins are gonna become in 2 years, etc.. one vendor published a possible count of 400 tracks with an URS channel strip on each using their PCI-E card.

That's my definition of 'bottleneck' the hard fact of 800MB/s on a FW device, no matter how grandiose its internal features.

That Lavry DA-10 sounds quite interesting actually.. as a matter of fact I'm gonna look into DAs that connect via AES/SPDIF/ADAT coupled with say an RME RayDAT, that might be the answer.

You lost me. Best of luck in your quest!

[SFTPH]

I have an Apogee Duet and although it sounds good and is cheap I would avoid it If you where considering it and could afford something better. When I got my new Nehalem Mac Pro I did some benchmarking/optimizing and found out with the Duet just plugged in about 5% of my system resources where being used! Just a heads up If someone mentions it. Have you looked into utilizing the built in Digital I/O to avoid firewire and PCIe cards altogether?

[jazzymike]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

Have you looked into utilizing the built in Digital I/O to avoid firewire and PCIe cards altogether?

Well not yet, as I'm struggling to understand what emfrank72 addressed.
In regards to handling a stream of a certain amount of tracks ITB.

Basically I'm trying to understand if bandwidth is an issue at all, for that I need to know how the ITB stream is passed to the DA (as a stereo sum or something more complex than that).

Also.. clocks: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/351104-adat-lightpipe-questions.html

latency:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/171909-i-need-2-channels-aes-ebu-spdif-coax-adat-my-mac-pro.html

This topic is getting progressively more confusing, gotta apologize for that

[funky monkey]

Originally Posted by SANDS

I always wondered if that would work. When you say "Low Latency" what are we actually looking at here? 3ms? 6ms?

I have a Duet running at 24. 44.1 most of the time with around 24 tracks usually. I'm currently looking at an option of ad to da like you have stated. Can you give some more info on the latency while tracking?

my setup is : Mac Pro 1st generation (2006) 2x2.66 dual-core, 6GB ram
with Lavry Black series AD/DA connected to Mac Pro via lightpipe

Inside logic 8 i can set the buffer size to 128 samples @ 48kHz (3ms) and just finish all the production(arrangement/traking/mixdown) includes 30+ virtual instrument tracks and 8~10 audio tracks without freeze the VI tracks.

the only limit is that if you wanna track more than 2 tracks you have to go other way like RME RayDAT

[SANDS]

Originally Posted by funky monkey

my setup is : Mac Pro 1st generation (2006) 2x2.66 dual-core, 6GB ram
with Lavry Black series AD/DA connected to Mac Pro via lightpipe

Inside logic 8 i can set the buffer size to 128 samples @ 48kHz (3ms) and just finish all the production(arrangement/traking/mixdown) includes 30+ virtual instrument tracks and 8~10 audio tracks without freeze the VI tracks.

the only limit is that if you wanna track more than 2 tracks you have to go other way like RME RayDAT

wow that is cool, I didn't think using the digital i/o on the mac would work well with latency and high track count. I like the Duet, it seems to work well and sounds ok, but if I could use a lavry or a mytek with the onboard digital i/o of the mac that would be awesome.

thanks for the info

[emfrank72]

I think you are starting to over think this and should refocus on the basics. The new Mac Pro will give you plenty of power to run as many tracks as you need in the box. You need to find the best interface you can afford that gives you the sound you are looking for as well as enough I/O. The throughput is only needed for what is coming into the computer (AD conversion) and what is going out (DA conversion). The processor (and RAM) is your main limiting factor when the audio is already in the computer. I suppose your hard drive could be a limiting factor at some point with enough tracks. If you only need a couple of ins and a couple of outs, don't buy and interface with 8, 16, or more channels of I/O unless you think you could need more in the future. It may be a good idea to have some room to grow, but only you can decide if that is necessary or not.

I started with the plan of working totally in the box and over time have decided to start adding some analog compressors, EQs, etc. and decided to add a second Aurora 16 just to for that. Also, I use a RME RayDat with 2 Aurora 16s and a Cranesong Hedd192 and love that setup but then I am recording bands and need upwards of 20 inputs sometimes.

There was an argument for using PCIe over firewire with the new Mac Pros last year around this time which is why my Aurora Firewire interface is sitting in the box. I kept having kernal panics but supposedly those were dealt with by some OSX patches (at least that is what the techs at Lynx told me). I never found out as I had replaced the firewire interface around the same time the OSX updates came out. There may have been no issues with other manufacturers Firewire interface and maybe it was only a Lynx issue. Who knows.

Good luck in your search and hopefully I haven't muddied the waters any.

[gundam]

Why not going for quality and expandability? I'd say go with the Lynx AES16-E, Lavry Blue DA and SPL Volume2. This will probably set you at around 2k Euros but the Lavry Blue is modular so you can add more AD or DA as you need them, just remember you can have up to 4 slots per rack. Plus, you'll have converters that you'll never get tired of.

I'm saying all this since you seem a real hardcore ITB user and would like to use your Daking only as a sparing tool. Get an awesome DA first for monitoring. Then, expand your system with more DAs and ADs for connecting the Daking or other outboard gear.

[jazzymike]

emfrank72 and gundam you guys are both right, and after consulting the local pro audio vendor I came to the conclusion of simply updating my multiface to PCI-E and 3rd party DA , f.e. dac1 or lavry black, either seems sufficiently "high-end" compared to Multiface's own DA. That way best of both worlds, low latency ITB and nice monitoring reference.

Thanks again everybody! I will report with benchmark results ASAP