Touch screens for DAWs?

[MadGuitrst]

Originally Posted by aquablu8

When should we expect decent multi-touch screens for DAW control -- not Lemur, but a real DAW screen view?

I thought about a touch screen and then thought to my7self, "do I want to be that close to the screen?"

I don't think I do...........

[HughH]

The Tango from SmartAV is pretty remarkable. When you use it with software that has EuCon control it's fuctionality quite nice.

Hugh

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by HughH

The Tango from SmartAV is pretty remarkable. When you use it with software that has EuCon control it's fuctionality quite nice.

Hugh

I don't think EuCon is involved, Smart AV writes their own drivers...

[stonewall40]

Originally Posted by aquablu8

When should we expect decent multi-touch screens for DAW control -- not Lemur, but a real DAW screen view?

I'm working on a developing a touch screen product right now. It's single touch right now due to OS limitations. Perhaps Win7 with it's multitouch support will yield some cool products in the future.
I should have something to show in the next few weeks.

Cheers!

[ninjaneer]

not sure if this is real or industrial light and magic...



as far as daw control is concerned i guess the software would have to be re designed
so that mute switches and faders etc would be 'finger point' size instead of 'mouse point'

not to sure about the vertical typing position...
maybe a horizontal 'touch' cinema display for faders and typing and a 'touch' imac for the arrangement.

or maybe just a 30" laptop


Troll Touch - Custom Touchscreens Since 1987

[Brad McGowan]

Have you used an iPhone? Some of the buttons are certainly "mouse point" size and it works just fine.

Brad

[ninjaneer]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Have you used an iPhone? Some of the buttons are certainly "mouse point" size and it works just fine.

Brad

yes i own one..

but i would n't feel comfortable mixing an album on one.

my point was that logic for example has many small checkboxes and solo buttons etc.
there would have to be some kind of design review to make it fully compatible with
touch screen operation.

maybe also a whole other set of key commands e.g. 3 taps on screen brings up the mixer.

many possibilities.

[shanabit]

Great , well go from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome to Rotator Cuft Tears/Adhesive Capsulitits

[illacov]

Well there is that free program that uses the Wii remote as an IR camera which allows you to use an infared pen to control your computer by touching the screen. Pretty big hit with the Reaper folks.

Peace
Illumination

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by ninjaneer

yes i own one..

but i would n't feel comfortable mixing an album on one.

my point was that logic for example has many small checkboxes and solo buttons etc.
there would have to be some kind of design review to make it fully compatible with
touch screen operation.

maybe also a whole other set of key commands e.g. 3 taps on screen brings up the mixer.

many possibilities.

Good points. Well perhaps like the iPhone there can be a zoom touch that enlarges the area you want to click? You could always change the screen resolution to make everything bigger.

Brad

[Bristol Posse]

I'd rather get a physical control surface.

Screen position in general is not condusive to using the screen itself for input unless your going to replace the keyboard/mouse/mixing surface area with a touch screen and still have a separate viewing screen in the traditional viewing position, that could work and would probably look pretty cool too.
There is some interesting stuff being done to give physical feedback from the screen (through vibration) so your fingers get some tactiile feedback as if they were physically pressing a button.

If that get going then you have a realy usefull human interface device that could in theory replace anything we use right now with a single tablet

Right now I think touch stuff is fancy but innefective as far as true usfulness goes. I like my i phone but can type email about a hundred times faster and a lot more accurately on my blackberry

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Bristol Posse

I'd rather get a physical control surface.

Screen position in general is not condusive to using the screen itself for input unless your going to replace the keyboard/mouse/mixing surface area with a touch screen and still have a separate viewing screen in the traditional viewing position, that could work and would probably look pretty cool too.
There is some interesting stuff being done to give physical feedback from the screen (through vibration) so your fingers get some tactiile feedback as if they were physically pressing a button.

If that get going then you have a realy usefull human interface device that could in theory replace anything we use right now with a single tablet

Right now I think touch stuff is fancy but innefective as far as true usfulness goes. I like my i phone but can type email about a hundred times faster and a lot more accurately on my blackberry

I agree with you to a point. Touch screens actually focus on your point you made about Crackberry input.

Two handed input is significantly faster than one handed.

Being able to do things like minority report will make working audio editing a breeze.

That being said I find using touch screens limiting while find wacom pads freeing lol.

In the end I don't find the usefulness yet. I would much rather enjoy better control surfaces and or tactile input options. Touching a screen gets old. However if there was a glove based interface for BOTH hands and a screen that could be mounted in your table top at least 30 inches then we might have something. That way you can grab multiple faders on your screen with up to 10 fingers. But I still think there's caveats lol

Peace
Illumination

[Bristol Posse]

Originally Posted by illacov

I agree with you to a point. Touch screens actually focus on your point you made about Crackberry input.

Two handed input is significantly faster than one handed.

Being able to do things like minority report will make working audio editing a breeze.

That being said I find using touch screens limiting while find wacom pads freeing lol.

In the end I don't find the usefulness yet. I would much rather enjoy better control surfaces and or tactile input options. Touching a screen gets old. However if there was a glove based interface for BOTH hands and a screen that could be mounted in your table top at least 30 inches then we might have something. That way you can grab multiple faders on your screen with up to 10 fingers. But I still think there's caveats lol

Peace
Illumination

How bout this on user interfaces from the onion
Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[spm_gl]

I've just bought a ELO 17" Touchscreen for our soon-to-be mastering suite. We'll be using it in conjunction with a controller and a trackball. And Ardour. Might have to adjust the interface a little, but that's why I love open source. The idea is to use the touchscreen for quick selection, the controller (haven't decided which yet) for tweaking, and the trackball for fiddly editing.
I'll be prototyping the setup during the next two weeks, I'll post some more info as it gets along.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Bristol Posse

I'd rather get a physical control surface.

+ 1

[bmdaugherty]

I see lots of limitations using a touchscreen alone. For instance, when riding "faders" the feel of the virtual fader would change depending on how much oil was on your fingers and on the screen. Also, you still have to watch the screen and your fingers because there is no tactile feedback on the screen. Another issue with touchscreens is that they usually end up stealing clock cycles interpreting your input as data that can be utilized by the application.

That being said, several companies working on touchscreen solutions are getting it right. The SmartAV Tango, Lemur, and even the iPhone all have dedicated input processors aside from the cpu. This is the key to a successful touchscreen implementation.

I am particularly interested in testing a Tango because not only does it solve the tactile feedback issue, but it's architecture is very powerful and actually adds functionality to various applications.

[T_R_S]

I used to have 2 Wacom tablets and got rid of them.
I just got an Icon - can't wait to get it in!

[stonewall40]

Hey guys, I wanted to introduce myself and get in the conversation.....I've just started my own company that is building touch screens specifically for DAW users. I've been in the touch screen hardware integration field for 13 years prior and decided to go out on my own.

My product is oriented just like a standard mixing console. Like a desktop Mackie at a 15 degree angle.
You can check out the info at DAW touch screen

The website is not quite finished because I have been concentrating on the setting up for the 09 NAMM show in Nashville the last few weeks. Were booth #444 if anyone will be attending btw.....

If you don't mind I'd like to respond to a few of points made in no particular order:

Grease on the fingers is not a problem. You can wear gloves if you like. My touch displays use optical sensors they can take greasy hands or stylus inputs. The "overlay" to the video display is tempered glass, the hidden sensors map the touch coordinates so there's no sensitive touch membrane to damage.

Heat: yes the TS-control 32 gets warm, but the 4mm glass overlay insulates the heat from the user. The our aluminum enclosure gets warm to the touch on the top of the unit though. No fans needed.

Viewing angles: ours has 178 degree viewing in both directions. Looks great sitting in front of the unit or standing up.

System resources: our touch screen simply communicates via USB and is HID compliant. It is basically seen by your OS like a mouse.

Is it a true mouse replacement? Maybe maybe not. I usually reach for the mouse when doing very fine waveform editing, but other that I operate the DAW with the touch screen. Everything from fader moves, EQ, VST's, range selection, panning, double click, right click, etc.

Accuracy when hitting small check boxes: I've tested our screen extensively with Logic on MacOS and Samplitude/Protools on PC at 1920x1080 resolutions and have not had any problems hitting the button I need. Yes I miss once in a while but that's dependant on how many beers I've had.
The optical sensors have a about 36,000 x 36,000 touch resolution (or call it reportable XY coordinates) so it's VERY accurate.


We've chosen to go with a 32" widescreen format for several reasons.
- with your elbows on touch enclosure (like an analog desk posture) the average man can reach most of the screen without having to get out of the resting position.
- at 1280x720 resolution, many DAW's faders are show up 100mm in length.
- 32" widescreen on sitting the desk has quite a WOW factor for new clients.
- the larger the screen the more accurate paramaters can be adjusted. But anything bigger than 32" seemed to be too large having to reach some controls at the top of the screen

Multi-touch: our screens are multitouch capable, ready for Win 7. I am working on finding a solution that will allow us to use the screen in a "multi user" fashion enabling 2 parameters to be changed at once. As of right now, the hardware is limited by the operating systems.
I think multi-touch is cool, but the fancy zooms and scrolls are not really needed in the DAW world as much as true "multi user" might would be. That's what we are working on next.

Please shoot me any questions you may have!
info at dawtouch dot com
or feel free to call anytime. 256-361-9987

Sorry for the long post! I'm not trying to to sell anything, just wanted to be part of the discussion.
Thanks!

Dave Stanley
Red Leaf Technology, LLC

[Chris Nighman]

Very cool Dave. I'm interested in touch screen technology as I think it would bring a more natural flow to things. Thanks.

[topperf]

Hi Dave.

I must say that I'm very excited about this development - I had a diving accident back in 07' and became quadriplegic (like paraplegic, you just remove more movement - like hand function..)
Since then I've managed to get back into composing in my beloved PT and learned to use a computer with some new 'hardware devices'

For obvious reasons I'm looking out for other ways to control my DAW - and this is indeed a step in the right direction

Those who are busy using mouse and keyboard aren't gonna work as fast as the rest of us when we start implementing new technology in our work-flow like: LC Technologies Inc. | Eye tracking from LC Technologies - expanding the horizon of eye tracking. - this is expensive stuff - but I know of a German company who's developing glasses with eye-tracking in them, that will have a lower price tag.

I just can't wait - great controller you've made, Dave congratulations.

[stonewall40]

M127, I'll answer your questions below in italics. Chris and TopperF, thanks for positive feedback. I was actually pretty nervous about posting here. I've been a long time fan of gearslutz and know how scepticism can run wild around here.


Interesting, Dave. I like the name of your company (spent an awesome long time living in a country with a red leaf in its flag
Me too! I grew up in Canada outside of Toronto. Been down in the states for aboot 12 years now.


Probably, to further familiarize our community with your product, it would be great if you could answer questions right here, as it's totally on topic.

1. Does the screen integrates as an extra monitor to an existing computer display setup? Pretty obvious, but I thought I'd better ask.
Yes it does. Either by VGA or HDMI connection (if your PC is equipped) and can be used as primary or secondary monitor. Or use your DVI Output using DVI to VGA adaptor

2. Have you tested it in a multi-screen setup? I ask this bc, since the touch feature is understood as a mouse by the OS, I was wondering if there could be any issues when combining your touch screen with non-touch screns in terms of the XY coordinates. I would assume mouse control is "captured" in the TS-Control 32 as soon as you touch it, correct?
No problems there either. And yes you are correct. I actually use the screen along with a mouse. One at a time (but working on that "multi user" issue). Basically, if you are using a mouse and then touch the screen, the mouse cursor will jump to where you touched.


3. I would guess, in a multi-screen setting, the TS-Control 32 does not control any windows outside the confiness of the unit, correct?
That's correct. The calibration is permanently stored in flash memory on the touch screen it self.
I currently have 2 TS-Control 32's side by side running off one PC in stretched desktop mode.
Works like a charm for those really big mixes.

4. I saw in your site you mention a gloved hand and a stylus as the means for control, but how about direct "fingering", I am very good with it: (kidding)
Me too! I like to use fingers. I sometimes use a stylus, (ie Kosher beef Frank... um ball point pen) but fingering is best. lol! I guess the point to that feature is that anything can generate a touch unlike NFI type screen where you need your body's electricity to activate touch.
One caveat, if you are wearing long sleeves that are loose fitting or loose bracelets you run the risk of activating touches because the sleeve will be picked up by the sensors. This happens with LED touch screen technologies as well. Not so much with Resistive because resistive needs a bit of pressure to register touches.

A funny story, a had a fly in my studio the other night. Left everything on, when I came back in the next morning, all these crazy windows and dialog boxes were open. I guess that fly was trying to fix my mix.....

Point to that is the screens will register the lightest touch. Really, you hardly need to touch the screen at all. No sore fingers.



5. Would be great to see the videos of it in action. Keep us posted right here if possible.
Will do. I plan to bring my video camera to NAMM and will do a demo once we are all setup and before the crowds arrive.

6. I don't know how feasible it would be for you to implement the following, but here I go:

How about a floating small "mouse pad emulating sub-window" in the TS-Control that you can call up with, probably, a hot key. This would allow control of non-touch screens, and I can see a lot of uses for non touch screens being used as reference and not control. This pad would "understand" the settings in the Windows display properties, thus it would be a scaled down mouse pad. Just an idea.
I see what you mean. That's a great idea for sure. I thought about incorporating a hardware mouse pad or track ball on the side of the unit for just such a thing, but decided that most folks would have enough room for a mouse beside the unit.

On a side note, I use a freeware program that allows the user define a set of floating hotkeys for your DAW. Works great and you dont have to reach for the keyboard to split tracks, del, Ctrl-Z, track naming, etc




I will leave it there for now. Cheers for the initiative.

Thanks so much for the questions, I really do appreciate it!

[crypticglobe]

Yeah.... there have a been a lot of great touchscreens out for a long time... Planar... ELO... etc... etc...

Take your pick. I almost did that myself and created a desk based on touchscreens... but in the end... I liked the euphonix rig I have better.

[JPZ]

I don't know. For phones and stuff they're cool. I use them all the time on large format digital consoles like the Studer Vista, Euphonix and to a lesser extent the Calrec stuff but for a DAW reaching over and touching the screen to do a bunch of moves? I think that would get irritating really quickly.

[stonewall40]

As requested, here's a REALLY quick video demo of the product at Summer NAMM. Thanks to Craig Anderton for shooting and editing.

Summer NAMM 2009 - Nashville, Tennessee - July 17 - 19 | Harmony-Central.com

Scroll down on the left to find RedLeaf Technology.

I will have some more controlled training type videos in the next couple of weeks.
I also did an on camera interview with Sound on Sound, shot a video for Sweetwater atthe show. I will let post if anyone's interested when they become available to me.

Shoot me any questions!
Thanks,
Dave Stanley

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by stonewall40

As requested, here's a REALLY quick video demo of the product at Summer NAMM. Thanks to Craig Anderton for shooting and editing.

Summer NAMM 2009 - Nashville, Tennessee - July 17 - 19 | Harmony-Central.com

Scroll down on the left to find RedLeaf Technology.

I will have some more controlled training type videos in the next couple of weeks.
I also did an on camera interview with Sound on Sound, shot a video for Sweetwater atthe show. I will let post if anyone's interested when they become available to me.

Shoot me any questions!
Thanks,
Dave Stanley

I've seen enough of this. I must have one!!

How soon and how much???

TH

[stonewall40]

How soon? Very soon! I have 5 ready to ship but need them for product demo's coming up in Nashville. 5 more ready in about 3 weeks.
Pricing is still TBD. Still figuring out if I will be doing direct sales via my website or thru a distributor network.

The NAMM show got us alot of attention from dealers, producers, other gear manufacturers, press, sales agents etc. It was quite overwhelming actually.

I am looking for some early adopters of the product at this point. A unit is being shipped over to a major online dealer this week to testing.
Oceantracks, If you really must have one send me an email via the DAW touch screen website.

Thanks!
Dave

[wildpark]

wacon cintiq the only one i feel comfortable with

[stonewall40]

Thanks Ivan for posting your thoughts. Being a project studio guy, much of my thought process came directly from my experience mixing in the box.

A few Nashville "heavy hitters" as I call them, thought this thing would be a great tool to simply set levels and use as a tape transport for protools when mixing on their large format consoles.

I'm hoping that being first to market and patent protection on the design might be enough to grow the business to where I want it.
For the time being, I am consulting personally with prospective clients to make sure they fully understand what they are getting to make sure it will help their workflow and suit thier lifestyle. I hope my reputation may give me a bit of an advantage there as well.
Thanks again for the warnings here too, I know I'm probably swimming in a pool of sharks right now. I appreciate your insight.

[stonewall40]

Originally Posted by wildpark

wacon cintiq the only one i feel comfortable with

I can certainly understand that. Wacom's a great company with great products!