LOGIC PRO 8 - Aux Latency I/O Fixes

[audiomichael]

UNCOVERING LOGIC PRO 8 LATENCY

I’ve been frustrated for a couple years by Logic’s incomprehensible delay compensation when using busses. This has made using outboard verbs a pain, and using outboard EQ and compressors on busses almost impossible. There have been valiant attempts made by Expert Sleepers with Latency Fixer, and Artificial Audio’s Latency Bundle, however they did not entirely fix the problem. These techniques have fixed the problem for me, I hope they help you.



BUS LATENCY:


THE SCENARIO AND THE SYMPTOM:

• My drums are bussed to BUS 10 (with the output to 1-2). All other instruments are going to OUTPUT 1-2.
• Using the I/O plugin, I patch in a Smart C2 compressor. I use Artificial Audio’s Latency Bundle to measure 86 samples. I use the Latency Compensator plugin and set it to 86 samples.
• When the I/O plugin is inserted onto the OVERHEAD track. The timing is spot on. Everything lines up perfectly (refer to clip 01 - Raw Latency Test)
• When the I/O plugin is applied to the DRUM BUS all of my drums fall behind badly. (refer to clip 02 - C2 on Drum Bus with Late Co). Now the drums are behind by about 3,000 samples, but it’s not even consistent. Some times it’s more, sometimes less. It seems random at each playback. And it drifts!!!... So When I get it tight, it’ll lag latter in the song, then come back together again. Totally unusable.(refer to picture - Rock Latency Pic)


THE FIX:

If you put another I/O plugin on any track that is being bussed to the latent bus, and bypass the I/O plugin. The I/O plugin must be set to something, but it doesn't matter which. Logic then compensates the bus’s latency perfectly. Why? Who the F knows! But it works. (refer to clip 03- C2 with ghost I/O plug)

I even built up some serious latency with 2 I/O plugins, a UAD Fairchild, and 2 UAD 33609’s and the ghost I/O plugin caused Logic to repair the latency. (refer to pic Rock Lots of Latency Fixed).




REVERB LATENCY:


THE SCENARIO AND THE SYMPTOM:

Logic has a similar problem with latency when dealing with outboard reverb, but I always had problems with latency causing the hardware reverb to have huge pre-delays.

• I would set an AUX to BUS 1. This would send out to the reverb.
• Then would set a different AUX to receive the reverb return. (refer to pic Reverb send return) ... pretty standard stuff.
• Now check out the ridiculous amount of pre-delay that can build up in a big mix. (refer to clip 04 - Reverb In and Out AUX)


THE FIX:

Send to your reverb using an AUX with an I/O plugin! (refer to pic Reverb with I/O plug)It’s a more streamlined approach, and handles the delay compensation properly. (refer to clip 05 - Reverb IO plugin)



For reference, my system is:

Mac 2x2.66 Dual-Core Intel Zeon
12GB RAM
Mac OS 10.5.6
Logic 8.0.2
Apogee Symphony w/ AD-16x & DA-16x
These tests were done at 128 I/O buffer, but changing this did not effect results for me
My reverb is currently patched analog...I haven’t tried the reverb test with a digital connection.

[cynics1207]

wow. great infor. thanks michael. got to try it out my self later.

[LeMauce]

Strange men. I have a macpro 8core 2.8ghz/10.5.6/Logic 8.0.2 and I use a shitload of outboard gear.
I use a projectmix I/O with a Digimax FS (adat connected) And I have like 2 stereo reverbs, LA2A and 1176 from AU and a G-masterbuss clone. All patch and ready to go in logic (maked a template in logic). And I have never had this kind of problems . Even with Parr/comp with the drum buss and the G-comp and then putting them back together in a new bus. Mhz perhaps there is a latency of what... under 10samples... I don't see / hear that anymore.
BTW I HAVE to say that. YES you must put always a i/o plugin on the buss that you sending out a signal and on the one that you receiving you treated signal.... Its abit fugged up in logic but hell it works.

BTW are you sure that you put in the options the I/O safety bumper on, Process Buffer Ranger: High, Recording delay @ 1Ms... (so your sure that the signal before recording is send properly). I/O buffer size to 32ms>?
And in "generel" tab in audio. Compensation set to ALL + Low latencymode plus the limit to 1ms (same as recording delay).
I have this setting and it works 99 out of 100

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by LeMauce

BTW are you sure that you put in the options the I/O safety bumper on, Process Buffer Ranger: High, Recording delay @ 1Ms... (so your sure that the signal before recording is send properly). I/O buffer size to 32ms>?
And in "generel" tab in audio. Compensation set to ALL + Low latencymode plus the limit to 1ms (same as recording delay).
I have this setting and it works 99 out of 100

LeMauce...thanks for the feedback. In regards to the settings.

• I usually do not have the I/O buffer on. I will mess with this today, and see how this effects matters.

• I will sometimes work at the buffer of 64, but usually it's at 128. Using the UAD-1 usually forces me into that. I don't think I ever even tried to work at 32 samples since it's not entirely practical for most of my session. I do use low latency mode for tracking, and that's never really been an issue with me.

• Compensation is always set to ALL

[LeMauce]

Good luck men, let us know what it did to you. Im heading to my bed. Long week of tracking and friday fricking SAE examday...

[audiomichael]

First of all I updated my original post:

In regards to the bus latency:

The bypassed 'ghost' I/O plugin needs to be set to something... it doesn't matter which I/O number you set it to, but the latency correction won't work until it's set. The number does not need to match the I/O number that's inserted on the bus.

Originally Posted by LeMauce

I/O buffer size to 32ms>

Lowering to 32 samples buffer made the bus latency worse. Switching to 1024 made it much better... but the timing was still loose. It's counter intuitive, but it is correct according to the Logic manual; higher buffer = lower latency.

Originally Posted by LeMauce

BTW are you sure that you put in the options the I/O safety bumper on

Turning on the I/O Safety Buffer made the bus latency mildly worse.

Originally Posted by LeMauce

Process Buffer Ranger: High

Switching the Process Buffer from Med to High made the bus latency w orse.

Originally Posted by LeMauce

Recording delay @ 1Ms... (so your sure that the signal before recording is send properly). And in "generel" tab in audio. Compensation set to ALL + Low latencymode plus the limit to 1ms (same as recording delay).

These settings didn’t effect “mixing latency” but I’m sure are cool for tracking.

---->

I've attached some more audio clips for reference. So you can really hear the timing, I have ran the kick drum through the drum bus, and copied the track and ran that one directly to OUT 1-2. So you can hear the difference in attacks. For these I set the Buffer to 1024, the Safety I/O Buffer ON. There's a clip with LARGE Process Buffer Range, on with SMALL Process Buffer Range, then one LARGE Process Buffer with my 'ghost' I/O plugin where the timing is locked.

[emfrank72]

I feel your pain. I never had issues with Logic until I started getting some nice outboard gear. I can insert compressors on individual channels using latency fixer (can't remember the exact delay compensation but 86 does kind of ring a bell). However, I was trying to use my API compressor for parallel drum compression and no matter what I did, I couldn't seem to dial in the right amount of delay using latency fixer and the drums were incredibly phasy. I basically gave up and put the API on permanent 2-buss duty for now. I have thought about switching to Cubase/Nuendo but it seems no matter what platform I use, I find things I don't like about it so I might as well stick with Logic.

I have ran into a problem when using the IO plugin. It seems that if I solo a channel with the IO plugin that I get no audio. The only way to solo a channel is to mute the rest which is kind of a pain. I hope there is an easy solution to this one at least.

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by emfrank72

I have ran into a problem when using the IO plugin. It seems that if I solo a channel with the IO plugin that I get no audio. The only way to solo a channel is to mute the rest which is kind of a pain. I hope there is an easy solution to this one at least.

You need to solo-safe the output. Control-click the solo button.

[dkatz42]

Make sure you update to the latest Latency Fixer. The previous version would cancel after some outrageous compensation (like 40 msec or something) according to the plug. The latest version works fine for me. I think the patch was in December.

[LeMauce]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

First of all I updated my original post:

In regards to the bus latency:
etc

Holy Crap men. So infact my settings that working what, almost flawless for me. Make things even worse for you .
Ok you can carrie me away, LOGIC isn't logic at ALL... damn!

[DrDeltaM]

In my experience, Logic indeed doesn't compensate for I/O plug delays (combined with Latency Fixer) on AUX-channels, seems to compensate fine for other plugins on AUX-channels tho.

A solution that has worked for me is putting the I/O-plugin and it's Latency Fixer on the corresponding BUS-channel (in the environment) that is used for the AUX-channel (in the mixer.)

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

In my experience, Logic indeed doesn't compensate for I/O plug delays (combined with Latency Fixer) on AUX-channels, seems to compensate fine for other plugins on AUX-channels tho.

It works fine for me with LP8 and the latest Latency Fixer.

Make sure you set Logic's latency compensation to "all" in order to get it to work.

BTW, a handy trick to get around the fact that you can't tweak Latency Fixer with the transport running is to crank up Latency Fixer higher than you intend, and then put a sample delay plug afterward, which effectively undoes some of the "negative delay" applied by latency fixer. You can then tweak the sample delay plug while it's all running.

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by dkatz42

It works fine for me with LP8 and the latest Latency Fixer.

Make sure you set Logic's latency compensation to "all" in order to get it to work.

Don't have the latest Latency Fixer yet, maybe that makes a difference.

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Don't have the latest Latency Fixer yet, maybe that makes a difference.

Definitely did for me. I spent an hour (with Michael Wagener looking over my shoulder) putzing with the old one and having the thing do weird crap. With the upgrade it seemed rock solid.

With the previous version I had to put in what it claimed to be about 40 msec of compensation before I could get it aligned, which was obviously bogus (and then saving it as a preset and bringing it back would come up with something different.)

So it may be that it appears to do nothing because entering a reasonable level of delay doesn't do much...

[audiomichael]

What is "Latency Fixer"? Is that a secret Logic tool? I haven't found it. ...sorry. Just realized. You're talking about Expert Sleepers Latency Fixer. I was on v1.01, there is now a v1.02... I'll download the new version now and try.

Delta... What do you mean by inserting on the BUS in the environment. I went into my environment, and it already reflects the same I/O plugins on the same bus. Did I misunderstand you?

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by dkatz42

It works fine for me with LP8 and the latest Latency Fixer.

I upgraded to Latency Fixer 1.02 and it does work but I have to crank it up to 3123 samples, and I don't think it was still perfectly in phase...really close though. If I use the bypassed I/O plugin method, I can set it to 86 samples (per what was calculated by Latency Bundle) and it locks in perfectly in phase.

[DrDeltaM]

Latency Fixer is a free plugin by Expert Sleepers:
Expert Sleepers - Latency Fixer

FWIW, the 'old' version never let me down when using it on channels and busses (not auxes...)

@ audiomichael: While in most software a bus is just a mix 'somewhere', which you can return on an AUX channel, in Logic you can have BUS objects in the environment.

These BUS objects also feature insert ports, tho no sends. The picture you showed is of an AUX object, not a BUS object. BUS objects are standard NOT there in the environment, but you add them yourself (see pic below).
As output of the new BUS object, you can select the AUX channel of your choice. On an insert of the BUS object, I place the I/O plugin and Latency Fixer. This way, I have no latency issues at all for hardware inserts on a bus.

[~Zenshin Suru~]

Ok. Here I am using Logic 8 thinking, how is anyone effectively (phase coherently) using external FX/ compression, etc with Logic Pro 8? I would love to use my outboard compression, and reverbs on aux faders without crazy amounts of latency. So is it true that I should try this free Expert Sleepers plugin to get this to work. Do I need to buy Artificial Audio's product?

I've tried using the I/O plug-in on aux channels to route audio from bus sends to and from the outboard, but I've always experienced unusable amounts of latency. I am really excited to see if this will work.

Any other advice for someone just trying this? I'm using a MacBookPro with a FF800, and I'd love to be using my outboard in my little studio other than just at other studios and for live stuff.

Cheers and thanks for this thread!!

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by ~Zenshin Suru~

Ok. Here I am using Logic 8 thinking, how is anyone effectively (phase coherently) using external FX/ compression, etc with Logic Pro 8? I would love to use my outboard compression, and reverbs on aux faders without crazy amounts of latency. So is it true that I should try this free Expert Sleepers plugin to get this to work. Do I need to buy Artificial Audio's product?

I've tried using the I/O plug-in on aux channels to route audio from bus sends to and from the outboard, but I've always experienced unusable amounts of latency. I am really excited to see if this will work.

Any other advice for someone just trying this? I'm using a MacBookPro with a FF800, and I'd love to be using my outboard in my little studio other than just at other studios and for live stuff.

Cheers and thanks for this thread!!

I've been rockin' for over a month with this method, and it's been flawless. Sometimes when I'm cleaning up a session, I'll remove one of my bypassed i/o plugins and sh*t will fall apart, then I'll realize what I did, and re-insert, but that's the only downfall.

It's still worthwhile to pickup the Artificial Audio Latency Bundle to calculate exactly the round trip latency, which isn't compensated for.

GO FORTH AND USE YOUR OUTBOARD GEAR!!!

[~Zenshin Suru~]

wow. I just tried this. The free latency fixer set at 86ms and it seems to be very close. So much better than without. thanks again.

[mobilemozart]

Hi Guys,
what kind of latency are you getting with all these hardware-inserts? Would I still be able to play a virtual synth with inserted hardware or is the latency already too long?
What if I wanted to access an "In The Box"-Reverb from my Analogue Console? How would I do that? Using an Input Object in the Environment?

Cheers,
Marc

[thermos]

I love this place! Thank you guys.

So then, to get the verbs to show up on a bounce you would have to record them coming in as audio tracks? Or something? I'm not quite clear on this part.


Edit: Figured it out. Still can't get the timing to be tight/consistent when using inserts (comps).

[degas]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

A solution that has worked for me is putting the I/O-plugin and it's Latency Fixer on the corresponding BUS-channel (in the environment) that is used for the AUX-channel (in the mixer.)

This is what I do as well.
I use the BUS-channel instead of the AUX.

[mikecook]

I'm so relieved to read that other people are having these issues. I've battling with weird latency issues for months, and the Latency Fixer plugin wasn't working for me. My workaround method does not involve the I/O plugin. I've pretty much given up on that. Now I just create individual send and return busses. Everything seems to work prefect now.

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by degas

This is what I do as well.
I use the BUS-channel instead of the AUX.

Can you guys show me how to do this?

Thanks!

[thermos]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

@ audiomichael: While in most software a bus is just a mix 'somewhere', which you can return on an AUX channel, in Logic you can have BUS objects in the environment.

These BUS objects also feature insert ports, tho no sends. The picture you showed is of an AUX object, not a BUS object. BUS objects are standard NOT there in the environment, but you add them yourself (see pic below).
As output of the new BUS object, you can select the AUX channel of your choice. On an insert of the BUS object, I place the I/O plugin and Latency Fixer. This way, I have no latency issues at all for hardware inserts on a bus.

Worked flawlessly! You guys seriously just changed my life.

Sound eng, the details are in DrDeltaM's post. There is a screenshot.

Just to be more detailed. I'm running a comp on my drum bus (GSSL) and 2 verbs. Oh god, itb rules now! I used the Artificial Audio Latency bundle to calculate the exact delay. Painless.

[SoundEng1]

Thanks Brother

[thermos]

Also using a bus created in the environment for sends (verb, etc) is WAY tighter than using an aux as well.

[mikecook]

Apple really needs to pull their thumb out.. this is quite a major bug. Hopefully 8.1 is around the corner.

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by mikecook

Apple really needs to pull their thumb out.. this is quite a major bug. Hopefully 8.1 is around the corner.

Big Time!