LOGIC PRO 8 - Aux Latency I/O Fixes

[chrisj]

As a point of information, my sample delay is reporting a latency and then applying a delay to get back to zero- which is why you can apply negative delays on the fly, you're not changing the reported latency, just the corrective additional delay.

As a point of curiosity- that one is going to stay free, but does anybody need a cheap (like $30) bigger latency fixer or a latency fixer that will do subsample delays? If so, how much maximum latency do you actually need to correct for? I don't think there's much of a technical limit on how much I can do, but it'll eat RAM and apply the max latency at all times (while correcting it to the desired amount) so I haven't really got radical with it with the free Sample Delay.

For those who don't have it here's the freebie that does small negative delays to fix latency-
http://www.airwindows.com/f/SampleDelay.dmg

[Tui]

Originally Posted by chrisj

As a point of information, my sample delay is reporting a latency and then applying a delay to get back to zero- which is why you can apply negative delays on the fly, you're not changing the reported latency, just the corrective additional delay.

As a point of curiosity- that one is going to stay free, but does anybody need a cheap (like $30) bigger latency fixer or a latency fixer that will do subsample delays? If so, how much maximum latency do you actually need to correct for? I don't think there's much of a technical limit on how much I can do, but it'll eat RAM and apply the max latency at all times (while correcting it to the desired amount) so I haven't really got radical with it with the free Sample Delay.

For those who don't have it here's the freebie that does small negative delays to fix latency-
http://www.airwindows.com/f/SampleDelay.dmg

Hi Chris, nice to see you again.

You know, I've had your SampleDelay plug-in installed for quite a while, but I never realised it could be used for negative delays as well. Nice one! I just tried it out and it works well. However, it appears, for negative delays, one needs to push the sliders to the right, which seems a bit counterintuitive..? Or am I missing something?

As for a comprehensive latency fixer for $30, you can count me in. TBH, I'm sick of fiddling around with half-baked solutions (I use Logic), and I'd be only too happy to pay for something that covers all bases. However, to be effective, I think it would need quite a large range of operation. Some plugs like the PSP Neon HR induce hundreds of milliseconds of latency, so I think to be on the safe side, an entire second for maximum usable compensation would be required.

Regards.

[chrisj]

OK, let me see what I can do. With the need for long latency fixes, I'm really thinking I need to do separate plugs with increasingly ridiculous delay lengths- I just know somebody will be like 'I need to fix a 30 second latency!' but I can't just build that into the default plug or you'll sit there for a half a minute every time you hit play. Let me get a product together and we'll see if people like it.

Another thing- I think you need a phase flipper, am I right? I'm picturing people lining up stuff against a dry track. Seems to me you can do that better if you can set them up out of phase and then make them null... it would just plain go quicker that way.

I'm not sure how fancy I want to make the interpolation, let me ponder that a bit. I had something a bit sophisticated going on in my freebie Flanger/Chorus etc plugs, I might try that. I do want the pure sample delay (not subsample) to be strictly digital delay with no other effect to the sound, but the interpolated part will suffer slightly if it's too simple. The upside is, it will only suffer by a mild softening of the extreme highs which won't otherwise produce ugly colorations. I'm pretty sure I have a step up from that.

[Osumosan]

Important things for me: Yes, a phase flipper AND that the plug updates in realtime. Some sample delay plugs need a stop/start before new values take effect. That's no go for me. I've been using your plug because it does just that as opposed to the Expert Sleepers plug (maybe they do it now, but I haven't checked since I use yours). The Artificial Audio plugs are fantastic for reporting latency with a ping.

I have to say, though, that I haven't needed your SampleDelay since I get good reporting from Artificial Audio. I used to have to check the latency constantly before I knew about putting the latency plugs on the Bus instead of the Aux.

Cheers.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by chrisj

OK, let me see what I can do. With the need for long latency fixes, I'm really thinking I need to do separate plugs with increasingly ridiculous delay lengths- I just know somebody will be like 'I need to fix a 30 second latency!' but I can't just build that into the default plug or you'll sit there for a half a minute every time you hit play. Let me get a product together and we'll see if people like it.

Cool. I can't wait to try it out.

[Chrislpp]

Originally Posted by dkatz42

You need to solo-safe the output. Control-click the solo button.

Dude THANK YOU!

[Hollow Earth]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

THE FIX:

Send to your reverb using an AUX with an I/O plugin! (refer to pic Reverb with I/O plug)It’s a more streamlined approach, and handles the delay compensation properly. (refer to clip 05 - Reverb IO plugin)



For reference, my system is:

Mac 2x2.66 Dual-Core Intel Zeon
12GB RAM
Mac OS 10.5.6
Logic 8.0.2
Apogee Symphony w/ AD-16x & DA-16x
These tests were done at 128 I/O buffer, but changing this did not effect results for me
My reverb is currently patched analog...I haven’t tried the reverb test with a digital connection.

I'm trying to get this work with an Apogee Ensemble, EXS24 (Mono) and a Small Stone Guitar pedal but seemingly no luck whatsoever.

In the I/O panel I select Output 3 and Input 5, but the EXS24 Sampler's output seems completely unaffected. Could anyone let me know what I'm doing wrong?

Massive apologies for shameful inexperience etc.

[Osumosan]

So the physical output 3 on your ensemble is going to the input of the effect and then the ouput of the effect is cabled into physical input 5 of the ensemble, correct? Just starting with the obvious here.

By rights, you should be using a reamping device, but volume attenuation could do you fine.

To keep things tidy, I usually use the same input number as the output number.

[Hollow Earth]

Originally Posted by Osumosan

So the physical output 3 on your ensemble is going to the input of the effect and then the ouput of the effect is cabled into physical input 5 of the ensemble, correct? Just starting with the obvious here.

Hi. Yes, that's right :-/

[Osumosan]

There's not much info here. Can you post a screenshot? If you're using the I/O and the signal seems to not be effected, but you are hearing the signal, maybe you are listening to something other than the loop you think you are. That's pretty vague, but I don't know how you're set up.

[zmix]

Nice thread...

I've been dealing with latency issues in Logic since v3 or so. I have 48 analog chains in my system which contain my various channel insert and bus processing as well as parallel processing and ambience effects. I have written a plugin that allows me to compensate the latency to within 1/8th of a sample, which allows me to compensate the phase shift encountered with transformer coupled outboard gear in a parallel chain.

I can confirm that I/O inserts in an AUX are not compensated in LP 7 and 8 and that BUS and channel inserts are perfectly compensated when using my latency plugin.

My current mixer uses 32 busses and 32 aux channels driven from the bus outputs.

This allows me a lot of flexibility in mixing, but learning what works and what doesn't required a lot of trial and error. As has been mentioned before, it's important to create 'output' objects in the environment and to place them in 'solo safe' (*except* for the main output pair!) The bus channels do not need to be put in solo safe, but any aux which contains an effect like a delay or reverb should be in solo safe so that the effect can be heard when soloing. There is an issue with this particular thing that can be a bit frustrating: When grouping instruments to a bus (i.e. "drum bus") and soloing that bus or aux, the effects from the channel "send" pot will still be audible. There may be a more specific mute group assignment but I haven't discovered it (anyone else?).

I have found that I cannot insert more than one I/O in the main output channel without encountering a infinite delay loop (certainly it's a bug, probably a driver issue).


I have a question: Has anyone tested the latency, I/O, mute / safe issues in LP 9.1???

Thanks,

Chuck Zwicky

[Osumosan]

1. Latency is no longer a workflow issue in Logic 9. The I/O plug has a ping function that measure latency and sets compensation automatically.

2. I regularly have a comp and eq I/O plug on the main output. Check the internal routing of your interface.

[zmix]

Originally Posted by Osumosan

1. Latency is no longer a workflow issue in Logic 9. The I/O plug has a ping function that measure latency and sets compensation automatically.

2. I regularly have a comp and eq I/O plug on the main output. Check the internal routing of your interface.

That's great.. I have LP9.1 installed on my worthless laptop (no additional I/O) but want to be sure that the main issues are fixed before I try it on my main studio computer (also this would require a substantial upgrade of CPU / OS/ etc).

So you have no issues with latency in LP9 even when inserting on an AUX?
Parallel processing? Solo/Mute etc?

The routing of my interfaces is fine, trust me it's a bug (I use LP 7.2.3)

[Osumosan]

Hmmm. I have an old laptop with 7.2.2 on it. If I get a chance to install my interface on it, I'll check out the double I/O on output 1-2.

The issues you have with solo safe seem more like a feature. I think it would be difficult to implement solo safe toggling on channel sends which would be the cure for hearing all the instruments on your verb, for example.

One issue I have with soloing is that I normally have two mix AUXes (assigned to the same bus) for parallel compression and when I solo a track or AUX, the second of the two Mix AUXes will mute. (Not really a big deal because I'm not listening to how the parallel compression works during solo.)

All issues that you really seem to care about, parallel compression on AUXes in particular, work like a charm in L9. Solo safe-ing the outputs works as expected, too. You will be happy when it comes to this issue.

Can you do a Carbon Copy of your HD and install L9 for a day?

[zmix]

No, I cannot... you see, I am running LP 7.2.3 on my quad G5 2.5ghz PPC under OSX 10.4.11 ( HAPPILY and RELIABLY ).. I mix records for a living and cannot afford the possible downtime of 'beta testing' for apple.... One day if I am convinced that the various import features are actually reliably implemented in LP9 I may switch.

As for your other point, yes, the solo / mute implementation I described would likely be a selectable feature, as an intelligent mute grouping. I'd be happy if soloing the bus would simply mute the channels not assigned to that bus (as on the SSL's 8 group faders in the center section). Or have they fixed this in LP9????

[Osumosan]

I'm not sure I understand? If you solo an AUX in Logic, you'll only hear tracks assigned to that bus. If you have a send on that AUX, you'll hear the AUX of that send, but that will include any other tracks that are sent to that AUX. Not their own outputs, but only through that AUX.

What importing problems are you having?

If you use the I/O regularly, I'm telling you, Logic 9 will save you a LOT of time!

[rmockasin]

Originally Posted by Osumosan

1. Latency is no longer a workflow issue in Logic 9. The I/O plug has a ping function that measure latency and sets compensation automatically.

2. I regularly have a comp and eq I/O plug on the main output. Check the internal routing of your interface.

I've just started using the I/O with an outboard compressor and I'm having serious latency issues! I'm using Logic Pro 9.0.0 and my I/O doesn't seem to have the 'Ping' function - is it an option I can turn on somewhere or do I need to update my version of Logic?

[MandyC]

Originally Posted by zmix

No, I cannot... you see, I am running LP 7.2.3 on my quad G5 2.5ghz PPC under OSX 10.4.11 ( HAPPILY and RELIABLY ).. I mix records for a living and cannot afford the possible downtime of 'beta testing' for apple.... One day if I am convinced that the various import features are actually reliably implemented in LP9 I may switch.

As for your other point, yes, the solo / mute implementation I described would likely be a selectable feature, as an intelligent mute grouping. I'd be happy if soloing the bus would simply mute the channels not assigned to that bus (as on the SSL's 8 group faders in the center section). Or have they fixed this in LP9????

Originally Posted by Osumosan

I'm not sure I understand? If you solo an AUX in Logic, you'll only hear tracks assigned to that bus. If you have a send on that AUX, you'll hear the AUX of that send, but that will include any other tracks that are sent to that AUX. Not their own outputs, but only through that AUX.

What importing problems are you having?

If you use the I/O regularly, I'm telling you, Logic 9 will save you a LOT of time!

Im sorry but I have to chime in and say that since I left Logic 7 I haven't made a record on Logic that I'm happy with and am heading over to HD

I would strongly suggest that you stay in 7 as long as you can...Apple stuff is no longer pro IMHO...if you make a living and have a system that goes, don't move to 9....even though the ping function is fun.

even though this thread is olde, still relevant

[rmockasin]

Originally Posted by rmockasin

I've just started using the I/O with an outboard compressor and I'm having serious latency issues! I'm using Logic Pro 9.0.0 and my I/O doesn't seem to have the 'Ping' function - is it an option I can turn on somewhere or do I need to update my version of Logic?

Found it! I had to download and install the 9.02 update.