Why Pro Tools sounds different in Playback / Export as Audio Files or Bounce

[Fuel]

Hi!

I realized that the Mix sounds better after Bounce(Believe it or Not) or after I export the Mix I printed back as Export Audio ( Even Better!!) ?

Why during Playback sounds different????? I mean cool sounds better after Export as Audio Files and after Bounce too...but will be more accurate to have same quality or sound when mixing!!

What I mean is that if I play the File (Bounced or Exported as Audio Files) outside Pro Tools sounds better..more clear and defined!!!!

I am with PT HD 3 Accell / summing box and 2Bus processing going back to PT:

I am monitoring my mix in a ST track Input mode( 3-4) with the Track Output Analog 1-2 going to my Monitor Section.
Any ideas or suggestions?

Any Ideas??

[Tony Shepperd]

I agree, NO question about it.
I've talked about this on my DVD and I've been saying this for years.
There are a ton of people who've done the test and agree.
And then there are some people who say there is no difference.

But depending on which version of PT you're running, Record to Disc sounds better than Bounce to Disc.

[karl]

I thought it was more a case of complex automation not being followed accurately on bounce to disk with mix systems. Surely this is in the past with HD and the new mix buss.

[theblue1]

Not a PT guy but I've been seeing this discussion for a lot of years, now, and I'm as curious as ever as to the realities of it all. I've certainly heard from both sides. But the issue doesn't seem to die...

Has Digi ever issued a statement on this?

[Tony Shepperd]

Digi will probably never release a statement on BTD vs. RTD.
They change minor things on the BTD "under the hood", without announcing it to the world.
So it's really unlikely they will say anything.
But I know they have done tweaks on the major releases: PT 5.2, 6.0, 6.9, and 7.0.

[AMIEL]

Check this out!

I always had the feeling that the mixes sounds better after I listen to the Mix in other player that is not the DAW where was mixed.

I use PT HD and this Monday I have a situation with 2 songs with an Artist that is very Popular, experienced but not technical at all.....

I played my mix from PT ..I mean with the session open .....my mixed was printed back into PT .

She said...mmmm sounds cool but I am not sure about the fidelity...
Then I played the Bounced and the Exported Audio File thru the Import Audio Previewer...she had the same reaction!!!

Then I said ok listen to this!

Closed PT and open Snapper and played the BOunced Mix and she said ..I like this!!!! ,,which version it is?? I said is the same just being played from onother Program....she said I really like it!! played the Exported Audio File and she said it's a bit better...but the Mix sounds much better out of PT!!!

That is something I always felt!!!! always feel the same thing..and that happenned to me with this very picky artist with both last mixes!
Why this is happening??

[theblue1]

Some players have intentionally jiggered frequency response and/or compression. It's sort of akin to the loudness wars, looking for that supposed competitive edge. I don't know if it still has a bass boost, but there was a noticeable one added to the "flat" no-EQ mode in Windows Media Player around V6, I think it was. MusicMatch added a bass bump (without mentioning it or reflecting it in the supposed EQ settings) with their next version. I no longer use either player (and I think MM is belly up after being purchased by the clueless folks at Yahoo so they could cannibalize their subscription service, which they then let die on the vine).

[AMIEL]

I get what are you saying but I am not talking about more bass or diifferent, hyped Freq Response or stereo enhancement ...I am talking about fidelity, clarity.....this is why I am wondering if is the PT Playback quality when in Reality the Audio it's Better!

[eddierodriguez]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

I get what are you saying but I am not talking about more bass or diifferent, hyped Freq Response or stereo enhancement ...I am talking about fidelity, clarity.....this is why I am wondering if is the PT Playback quality when in Reality the Audio it's Better!

fidelity and clarity improve with some 6K pushing.

wmp11 does some on 3K and 6K.

[Mgr]

It's because they implemented the "NS10" algorithm in it. If it sounds good in protools it will sound great on anything else...

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by eddierodriguez

fidelity and clarity improve with some 6K pushing.

wmp11 does some on 3K and 6K.

I do not agree with that...a washed out source will be a washed out sound with more bright or brittle!

[BLUElightCory]

I teach an audio class locally and we recently did a null test between a bounced-to-disk mix and a recorded-to-disk mix, using Pro Tools HD2 Accel with 7.3.1 software. When flipping the polarity on either mix, they canceled completely.

This came as a surprise to me, as recorded-to-disk mixes have always sounded somewhat better when doing a simple listening comparison. But these test seem to point towards the psychological aspect of such a notion.

So unless we have some kind of magical Pro Tools HD rig or I'm missing something, there should be ZERO difference between a bounced-to-disk track and a recorded-to-disk track, as any difference in quality would have prevented the two mixes from canceling each other out.

Am I wrong?

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

I teach an audio class locally and we recently did a null test between a bounced-to-disk mix and a recorded-to-disk mix, using Pro Tools HD2 Accel with 7.3.1 software. When flipping the polarity on either mix, they canceled completely.

This came as a surprise to me, as recorded-to-disk mixes have always sounded somewhat better when doing a simple listening comparison. But these test seem to point towards the psychological aspect of such a notion.

So unless we have some kind of magical Pro Tools HD rig or I'm missing something, there should be ZERO difference between a bounced-to-disk track and a recorded-to-disk track, as any difference in quality would have prevented the two mixes from canceling each other out.

Am I wrong?

I do feel a slightly differences sounded better te RTD File.
I will do that test.

But again my point is why same mix in PT sound not as good as in other Players??

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I agree, NO question about it.
I've talked about this on my DVD and I've been saying this for years.
There are a ton of people who've done the test and agree.
And then there are some people who say there is no difference.

But depending on which version of PT you're running, Record to Disc sounds better than Bounce to Disc.

I've always had problems mixing sessions with bounced audio (from DP or Logic) tracks -- they just don't 'mix' as well as tracked audio tracks.

Have you come across this type of problem, Tony?

[Tha Wiizard]

You guys should get Samplitude. The sound is incredible and if it sounds great after bouncing or recording to disc, it sounds incredible using Samplitude for playback

[tamasdragon]

I tried both method, and they absolutely nulled, so no difference. Record to disk has other advantages, but certainly no sound advantage.
Tamas Dragon

[eddierodriguez]

Originally Posted by Tha Wiizard

You guys should get Samplitude. The sound is incredible and if it sounds great after bouncing or recording to disc, it sounds incredible using Samplitude for playback

noone said that pt sounds less incredible.

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

I tried both method, and they absolutely nulled, so no difference. Record to disk has other advantages, but certainly no sound advantage.
Tamas Dragon

i guess it´s not a whole bounce-to-disk problem, but a problem in some routing/bussing/plugin situations. cause that´s what i notice.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Tha Wiizard

You guys should get Samplitude. The sound is incredible and if it sounds great after bouncing or recording to disc, it sounds incredible using Samplitude for playback

I believe you! but I do not want to deal with a PC....stability for me is a very important factor!

[strewnshank]

One of us should conduct a double blind study to figure this out.

[10 Dollars]

I'm not an engineer... but I do own Pro Tools. I was going to make a thread, but I think this topic already has the basis of what I was going to ask.

I can't remember where, but I read this article in which this engineer was saying how he never bounces to disk, and that he always prefers another way.. in which he says sounds better. I can't remember what he was talking about, as I read it a few months ago... it could be possible that he was talking about "recording to disk". How do I go about recording to disk? Are there any other ways to turn my mixes into wav files?

Thanks

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by 10 Dollars

I'm not an engineer... but I do own Pro Tools. I was going to make a thread, but I think this topic already has the basis of what I was going to ask.

I can't remember where, but I read this article in which this engineer was saying how he never bounces to disk, and that he always prefers another way.. in which he says sounds better. I can't remember what he was talking about, as I read it a few months ago... it could be possible that he was talking about "recording to disk". How do I go about recording to disk? Are there any other ways to turn my mixes into wav files?

Thanks

To record to disc, create a new stereo audio track, select the inputs to be a buss, and outputs to be your monitor path.

Then take whatever tracks were sent to the monitor path and buss them to the new stereo track.

Hit record.

Extra Credit: send the tracks out of your DAW to a compressor or EQ or whatever, and then record them back in, using analogue ins and outs instead of the internal buss.

[10 Dollars]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

To record to disc, create a new stereo audio track, select the inputs to be a buss, and outputs to be your monitor path.

Then take whatever tracks were sent to the monitor path and buss them to the new stereo track.

Hit record.

Extra Credit: send the tracks out of your DAW to a compressor or EQ or whatever, and then record them back in, using analogue ins and outs instead of the internal buss.

Cool! So then I can just go into the audio files folder and take that new stereo track and place it in iTunes?
Thanks for the extra credit tip too!! I think that's exactly what I was trying to remember.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

I've always had problems mixing sessions with bounced audio (from DP or Logic) tracks -- they just don't 'mix' as well as tracked audio tracks.

Have you come across this type of problem, Tony?

Yes, bounced audio drives me crazy....
But IMO, worse than bounced tracks are tracks the are frozen. YIKES!!!!!!!
Frozen tracks "AS A GENERAL RULE" have more glitches than than anything I have encountered.

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by 10 Dollars

Cool! So then I can just go into the audio files folder and take that new stereo track and place it in iTunes?
Thanks for the extra credit tip too!! I think that's exactly what I was trying to remember.

Actually,
Export the file to a new location as a stereo interleaved file. (shift apple k)
Otherwise, you'll have two files (l and r) that won't play at the same time in iTunes. Also, make it a 16/44.1 file so that you can burn it and whatnot. Dither in PT and SRC when you are exporting the file .

[adrianex]

Maybe is not the relevant but I used to hear the differences when I used the analog outputs form my converters to listen to Protools will recording and/or mixing (wire to a mixer, Summing box or whatever).

Since I rewired PT to play digitally to my D-box and let the D-box do all the D/A conversion for my CD player and PT. It stopped.

My conclusion was that I was hearing the differences of the converters and not the Audio Player, Once I joint all my sources into the same D/A converter the differences were pretty much gone.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[AnonJack]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

I teach an audio class locally and we recently did a null test between a bounced-to-disk mix and a recorded-to-disk mix, using Pro Tools HD2 Accel with 7.3.1 software. When flipping the polarity on either mix, they canceled completely.

This came as a surprise to me, as recorded-to-disk mixes have always sounded somewhat better when doing a simple listening comparison. But these test seem to point towards the psychological aspect of such a notion.

So unless we have some kind of magical Pro Tools HD rig or I'm missing something, there should be ZERO difference between a bounced-to-disk track and a recorded-to-disk track, as any difference in quality would have prevented the two mixes from canceling each other out.

Am I wrong?

Funny, seems a lot of people are ignoring your post. Nice idea to test it.

(Assuming you're not lying about you're test...)

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

I teach an audio class locally and we recently did a null test between a bounced-to-disk mix and a recorded-to-disk mix, using Pro Tools HD2 Accel with 7.3.1 software. When flipping the polarity on either mix, they canceled completely.

This came as a surprise to me, as recorded-to-disk mixes have always sounded somewhat better when doing a simple listening comparison. But these test seem to point towards the psychological aspect of such a notion.

So unless we have some kind of magical Pro Tools HD rig or I'm missing something, there should be ZERO difference between a bounced-to-disk track and a recorded-to-disk track, as any difference in quality would have prevented the two mixes from canceling each other out.

Am I wrong?

I passed over this post...you aren't wrong, but I think that a heavy load of pluggin automation is what can lead to differences and the tests not nulling. I can't reference the exact posts, but on threads devoted to similar topics, people have reported that the two do not null with heavy automation but do null when the mixes are more straightforward.

One would hope this would not be the case, especially since competing DAW's offer a "quick" bounce or offline bounce option where the automation and plugin reactions are obviously not live. But then we get into a whole side-note of how the programs differ under the hood, so to speak, which I am in no position to comment on.

[eddierodriguez]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

I believe you! but I do not want to deal with a PC....stability for me is a very important factor!

i´m using both worlds.

last 4 weeks 2 issues with mac pro quad.

none with pc.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

I teach an audio class locally and we recently did a null test between a bounced-to-disk mix and a recorded-to-disk mix, using Pro Tools HD2 Accel with 7.3.1 software. When flipping the polarity on either mix, they canceled completely.

This came as a surprise to me, as recorded-to-disk mixes have always sounded somewhat better when doing a simple listening comparison. But these test seem to point towards the psychological aspect of such a notion.

So unless we have some kind of magical Pro Tools HD rig or I'm missing something, there should be ZERO difference between a bounced-to-disk track and a recorded-to-disk track, as any difference in quality would have prevented the two mixes from canceling each other out.

Am I wrong?

No, you are correct.

When two files played from a hard disk null, they are completely and absolutely identical. Basic math. While the same isn't necessarily true for cd playback (due to a very different type and quality of realtime error correction) which is probably what confuses some. Or just because math and computers are still considered voodoo to some.

So if a bounced to disk and recorded to disk track null they are identical. Any difference people claim to hear is entirely placebo. And that includes ProTools, Logic, Cubase, etc.

Now, there might be cases when they don't null - and then they are certainly no identical. But usually that's minor automation stuff, which can be very important but as rule not a integral part of the sound. That's why it can still make sense to do realtime bounces instead of offline, i.e. to manually check the sound during bounce.

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Yes, bounced audio drives me crazy....
But IMO, worse than bounced tracks are tracks the are frozen. YIKES!!!!!!!
Frozen tracks "AS A GENERAL RULE" have more glitches than than anything I have encountered.

Ah, that's what I meant to say, frozen tracks! I get tracks from other arrangers frozen in Logic or DP.....that drive me crazy! They just don't mix together well!