Logic interface, no latency?

drgregorio · 27th May 2005

I just figured out Logic Pro 7 and am looking to replacing my PT mix 3 setup because I don't want to pay 10k to upgrade to HD. What is the best interface for Logic that doesn;t have latency whne recording tracks. I am using the Mackie Onyx firewire but there is latency when I record if I monitor the software. If I monitor the input there is an imbalance between the levels when I punch in.

I am loving the instruments in Logic and some of the midi features and I have figured out work around for some of the shortcomings, no track grouping, beat detective etc.

I am used to Pro Tools and am looking for someone who has been using Logic for awhile to give me some advice.

I have a dual 2gb G5 with 160gb and 400gb internal drives and a bunch of nice preamps.

Orren · 27th May 2005

Hi there,

Well, I can say with complete honesty that I "wrote the book" on Logic

so I thought I'd chime in.

I'm afraid the news is bad.

It is simply not possible to have a non TDM system and monitor through Logic with no latency. Sorry. It's simple physics. With TDM, the audio is brought into the TDM PCI cards, and stays there. The audio is always played and processed on the card. In a native system, the audio has to travel from the PCI (or FW, etc) interface into the host CPU for processing or playback, then sent back out to the audio interface for you to hear it. This takes time. How much time depends on your audio buffer. Logic allows you to set your audio buffer as low as 32 samples, which given an interface capable of low latency performance, means a round trip around 5ms or so counting the AD->buffer in -> processing in Logic -> buffer out -> DA stages. The truth is, however, with use of plug-ins and/or lots of tracks, even your dual G5 will buckle under the strain of this low a buffer, and you'll have to move up to 64 samples, or 128 samples as a buffer, with a round trip latency of closer to 10ms, maybe even a bit more.

However, notice I singled out the phrase "and monitor through Logic." If you are willing to monitor through a hardware mixer, or through an interface that offers "direct hardware monitoring," then you can have zero latency. In this situaion, you are not monitoring the signal through Logic, you are monitoring the input signal. This means you don't have to go through all those stages, and can get as good or better latency than with TDM. But of course since you're not going through Logic, you can't use Logic's effects, or hear if the signal going into Logic is clipping, etc.

If you're willing to live with direct monitoring, a native system will work. You could get by with any quality audio interface, such as the RME HDSP series, Fireface 800, and so on, and monitor the input signal. But if you have to monitor the recorded signal...your only zero latency option is TDM, I'm afraid.

Orren

drgregorio · 27th May 2005

I appreciate your information and it is what I expected although I thought maybe there was some other solution in RME or Motu products. I guess I need to find a way to match the signals so the return from the computer and the incoming signals are close so I can get a good headphone mix. I work with first take studio musicians a lot who want perfection in the headphones and no messing around with levels.

I have your Logic Power book that I keep next to my mixing board and has helped me get through some tough moments.
THnaks again,
Greg

Tiouz · 28th May 2005

HI,

i would suggest Metric halo cards as they offer 3 stereo mixers (6mono) to make different mixes for musicians. And if you go DSP you will also have EQ COMP and many other effect, all this without any delay http://gearslutz.com/board/newreply....te=1&p=334039#
but you will still need to attach a hardware reveb box to the Metric to add reverb to monitor mixes.

27th May 2005	#1
drgregorio Gear Head Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 31 Thread Starter 1 Review written	Logic interface, no latency? I just figured out Logic Pro 7 and am looking to replacing my PT mix 3 setup because I don't want to pay 10k to upgrade to HD. What is the best interface for Logic that doesn;t have latency whne recording tracks. I am using the Mackie Onyx firewire but there is latency when I record if I monitor the software. If I monitor the input there is an imbalance between the levels when I punch in. I am loving the instruments in Logic and some of the midi features and I have figured out work around for some of the shortcomings, no track grouping, beat detective etc. I am used to Pro Tools and am looking for someone who has been using Logic for awhile to give me some advice. I have a dual 2gb G5 with 160gb and 400gb internal drives and a bunch of nice preamps.

27th May 2005	#2
Orren Gear addict Joined: Sep 2004 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 414	Hi there, Well, I can say with complete honesty that I "wrote the book" on Logic so I thought I'd chime in. I'm afraid the news is bad. It is simply not possible to have a non TDM system and monitor through Logic with no latency. Sorry. It's simple physics. With TDM, the audio is brought into the TDM PCI cards, and stays there. The audio is always played and processed on the card. In a native system, the audio has to travel from the PCI (or FW, etc) interface into the host CPU for processing or playback, then sent back out to the audio interface for you to hear it. This takes time. How much time depends on your audio buffer. Logic allows you to set your audio buffer as low as 32 samples, which given an interface capable of low latency performance, means a round trip around 5ms or so counting the AD->buffer in -> processing in Logic -> buffer out -> DA stages. The truth is, however, with use of plug-ins and/or lots of tracks, even your dual G5 will buckle under the strain of this low a buffer, and you'll have to move up to 64 samples, or 128 samples as a buffer, with a round trip latency of closer to 10ms, maybe even a bit more. However, notice I singled out the phrase "and monitor through Logic." If you are willing to monitor through a hardware mixer, or through an interface that offers "direct hardware monitoring," then you can have zero latency. In this situaion, you are not monitoring the signal through Logic, you are monitoring the input signal. This means you don't have to go through all those stages, and can get as good or better latency than with TDM. But of course since you're not going through Logic, you can't use Logic's effects, or hear if the signal going into Logic is clipping, etc. If you're willing to live with direct monitoring, a native system will work. You could get by with any quality audio interface, such as the RME HDSP series, Fireface 800, and so on, and monitor the input signal. But if you have to monitor the recorded signal...your only zero latency option is TDM, I'm afraid. Orren __________________ New Novel: The Deviant Ember After: http://www.emberafter.com Personal blog: http://blog.orrenmerton.com Webcomic: http://www.karmakatanddogma.com

27th May 2005	#3
drgregorio Gear Head Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 31 Thread Starter 1 Review written	Thanks for your input I appreciate your information and it is what I expected although I thought maybe there was some other solution in RME or Motu products. I guess I need to find a way to match the signals so the return from the computer and the incoming signals are close so I can get a good headphone mix. I work with first take studio musicians a lot who want perfection in the headphones and no messing around with levels. I have your Logic Power book that I keep next to my mixing board and has helped me get through some tough moments. THnaks again, Greg

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28th May 2005	#4
Tiouz Gear interested Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 5	HI, i would suggest Metric halo cards as they offer 3 stereo mixers (6mono) to make different mixes for musicians. And if you go DSP you will also have EQ COMP and many other effect, all this without any delay http://gearslutz.com/board/newreply....te=1&p=334039# but you will still need to attach a hardware reveb box to the Metric to add reverb to monitor mixes.