Beat Detective on drums

[wannaberocker]

Hey, I just wondering how to apply beat detective to quantize 8 tracks of drums without it sounding like @ss.

Maybe i should know this already....i have PTLE and would be using the beat detective that comes with it. I just don't really know much about it....

Most songs i do are one tempo through-out...

Basically a walk-through or starting point and some tips would be great!

Thanx!!

[bgrotto]

BD can be a real pain, and it's one of those things that's damn near impossible to explain without you sitting here, watching me do it. And even then, you'd hafta watch me do it a few times before it started to sink in. There are some great videos, though...try to search for one of Kenny Goia's (sp?) excellent tutorials.

A great alternative, however, is to not use BD at all, but to manually splice at transients (make sure all your drums are grouped, and you're making the splice at the close mic). Then grab the audio after the splice and drag it into the desired position (make sure you're in Grid mode, obviously). Once you've gone through the whole song, use BD's fill and crossfade function, and you're good. For me, it works better and sounds better.

All that said, Elastic Audio has made those kinds of tendonitis-inducing editing sessions history.

Maybe you should just update to 7.4.

[AndrewOswald]

With LE you only have multitrack beat detective if you buy the music production toolkit or the DV toolkit. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't have either of those its impossible to beat detect your drums.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by AndrewOswald

With LE you only have multitrack beat detective if you buy the music production toolkit or the DV toolkit. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't have either of those its impossible to beat detect your drums.

You don't need multi-track BD to quantize your drums. The method I described above can be done with the stereo LE version. Or, if you manually add the fades, without BD at all.

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Maybe you should just update to 7.4.

Well, i watched the video tutorials on elastic time at digidesign.com....

Yep! I bought the upgrade last night for 50 dollars and have yet to try it....

[marcelo depetro]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

BD can be a real pain, and it's one of those things that's damn near impossible to explain without you sitting here, watching me do it. And even then, you'd hafta watch me do it a few times before it started to sink in. There are some great videos, though...try to search for one of Kenny Goia's (sp?) excellent tutorials.

A great alternative, however, is to not use BD at all, but to manually splice at transients (make sure all your drums are grouped, and you're making the splice at the close mic). Then grab the audio after the splice and drag it into the desired position (make sure you're in Grid mode, obviously). Once you've gone through the whole song, use BD's fill and crossfade function, and you're good. For me, it works better and sounds better.

All that said, Elastic Audio has made those kinds of tendonitis-inducing editing sessions history.

Maybe you should just update to 7.4.

Hi, this is exactly what i am doing, splicing at the transients manually, grabbing to the grid, and smoothing with BD. It is taking me an awful lot of time to do it, and some pain in my left wrist too...

Tab to transient>crtl+E, tab again, nudging back and forth... i was wondering if anyone came across a better shortcut to splice regions at the transients... Thanks in advance, and greetings from Argentina

Marcelo
MySpace.com - Marcelo - 43 - Male - Martinez, AR - www.myspace.com/marcelodepetro

[HOTC]

elastic time sounds crap in my opinion

[geeek]

Beat detective in LE is 1 track at a time, rendering it utterly useless imho.

I found this out the hard way, then mixed something on a HD rig, and marvelled with glee.

The manual approach, by grouping and editing, then group smoothing works a treat tho.

[marcelo depetro]

Hi binary, I understand that if you install the Music Production Toolkit, or the DV Toollkit, BD works on groups. That is how i'm doing it.

Greetings

Marcelo

[otobianki74]

editing is dark, OCD territory and can take over your life for days, even years. granted this is dependent on time constraints, budget, etc.

shoot for takes, quick edits on the fly, don't lose sight of the performance.

oto

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by otobianki74

editing is dark, OCD territory and can take over your life for days, even years. granted this is dependent on time constraints, budget, etc.

shoot for takes, quick edits on the fly, don't lose sight of the performance.

oto

In an ideal world...in the real world, we do what's necessary.

[otobianki74]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

In an ideal world...in the real world, we do what's necessary.

absolutely, but even keeping an ideal goal in the back of your mind can sometimes change the way you approach engineering/producing a session.

granted you are sometimes up against a drummer who doesn't know what groove means...

oto

[Kenny Barnes]

actually the "edit smoothing" function works over all of the tracks in LE. it is all of the other functions that do not. so, if you do as bgrotto said, and dont worry about all of your spaces, then go back and highlight all of the tracks and usse edit smoothing, then again, highlight the whole track and batch fade (apple + F) this saves a lot of time. get good at doing this and you can edit drums without killing the drummers feel. mainly you can line the 1's and 3's up or just clean up double kicking and fills to make a GREAT performance out of an otherwise OK performance.. and trust me. the pro's don't use beat detective anyway, they have someone do it by hand, JUST LIKE YOU! so if you were to intern or work for one of the big guys...this is what you would be doing ALL DAY! for DAYS AT A TIME! ...or you could spend 5-600 dollars on the music production toolkit and have computerized drums, and after you spend all of your time drumagoging it all too, you might as well have programed the whole thing, run it back through drumagog, then overdubbed cymbals..that is one technique i know dave grohl uses for super pristine cymbals etc... happy editing!

[PlatinumSamples]

Everyone should learn how to edit multi-tracked/grouped drums manually before using Beat Detective or any other tool to automate it.. so they learn the process... And yes, it's a slow, tedious job... which can make a track great or make it sterile.

The trick is to let the hihat have some movement but just quantize the kick and snare... and don't make everything perfect.

Rail

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Kenny Barnes

.. and trust me. the pro's don't use beat detective anyway, they have someone do it by hand, JUST LIKE YOU! so if you were to intern or work for one of the big guys...this is what you would be doing ALL DAY! for DAYS AT A TIME! ...or you could spend 5-600 dollars on the music production toolkit and have computerized drums, and after you spend all of your time drumagoging it all too, you might as well have programed the whole thing, run it back through drumagog, then overdubbed cymbals..that is one technique i know dave grohl uses for super pristine cymbals etc... happy editing!

Err...total and utter BS. How many of the "pros" have you worked for, and what do you define as "pro"?

It totally depends on the song, the band and what result is desired.

There's a reason there's options for swing, groove quantise, strength of quantise adjustments etc - a good editor will use these options to make a tight track yet not destroy the life of it.

For what it's worth, whenever any "pro" engineer has gone for the "this needs to be tight" option, they've gone beat detective. If it's a really good drummer to start with, or the feel doesn't need to be very tight, they might just move the odd section by hand.

No-one I've ever worked for has asked me to chop and move every hit by hand though - and that includes some of the big names.

FWIW no-one on a session like this has ever opted for elastic audio ahead of BD.

[tamasdragon]

Elastic audio is better imho, if used right. It sounds crappy only if misused.
And really, take care that don't do robotdrummer, keep some feeling in the production.
Tamas Dragon

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Elastic audio is better imho, if used right. It sounds crappy only if misused.
And really, take care that don't do robotdrummer, keep some feeling in the production.
Tamas Dragon

most of the time, it works ok. Sometimes, and for no real reason, it just messes up the phase with the transients.

The way I've done it is to delete all analysed warp markers, and put my own in. Can't get more exact than that...and it STILL messes up kick transients in particular.

If I'm going to be doing this on projects for other people, I need to have something 100% reliable - that's not EA at the moment

UNLESS - have you noticed any difference between PT7.4 and PT8? I've not really tried it in 8 yet.

[tamasdragon]

I used just a little in 7.4, and use it intensively in pt8. It works very well for me, not experienced the phase messing issue.
Tamas Dragon

[davedarling]

Originally Posted by Kenny Barnes

and trust me. the pro's don't use beat detective anyway, they have someone do it by hand,

sorry, simply not true. I'm a pro, many of my friends are pro, BD gets used a lot.

best DD

[Kenny Barnes]

actually, i have interned under Jesse Cannon, at cannon found soundations in NJ who did work on some of the earlier limp bizkit (sorry for the terrible band reference but it IS pro)
and he, as well as a bunch of other producers (brian mcternan, aaron sprinkle, jerry finn, andreas magnussen and rob cavallo) REFUSE to use beat detective, as it can kill a performance, but along with that, they have experienced people that they trust to edit the drums, and NO they DO NOT EDIT EVERY SINGLE HIT.. that would be ********. and i would consider those names to be "pro" because they have numerous gold and/or platinum records under their belts. and YES BD can be used right, but to really understand what it is doing and know how to use it, you should know how to edit by hand before you ever start to mess with BD. So. IMO Beat Detective sucks. Take it, or leave it.
happy beat-detecting

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Kenny Barnes

actually, i have interned under Jesse Cannon, at cannon found soundations in NJ who did work on some of the earlier limp bizkit (sorry for the terrible band reference but it IS pro)
and he, as well as a bunch of other producers (brian mcternan, aaron sprinkle, jerry finn, andreas magnussen and rob cavallo) REFUSE to use beat detective, as it can kill a performance, but along with that, they have experienced people that they trust to edit the drums, and NO they DO NOT EDIT EVERY SINGLE HIT.. that would be ********. and i would consider those names to be "pro" because they have numerous gold and/or platinum records under their belts. and YES BD can be used right, but to really understand what it is doing and know how to use it, you should know how to edit by hand before you ever start to mess with BD. So. IMO Beat Detective sucks. Take it, or leave it.
happy beat-detecting

Fair enough, you've had a bit of experience. But from your post it sounds like you've worked for one guy at his own facility, not the other names you list (sounds like you're quoting other people there, 2nd hand knowledge at best) - which isn't really enough to state how many pros do or don't do something!

And to make a blanket statement that editing every hit would be "********" does show that a bit. Try having a drummer play to loops, and see how great that sounds without having one or the other chopped to fit. and truth be told, most drummers aren't solid enough to play modern rock styles without being heavily edited.

Many people edit by hand (and if people are comping more than tightening, that's really the only option). Many people don't edit at all. Many more use BD. All are valid approaches, depending on the style of music. Many people are pros.

If BD sucks IYO, that's all well and good. If you want to work in this industry, better learn how to use it properly, with all the options. If done well it enhances a performance - if you find it's killing it, you're not doing it properly.

[tamasdragon]

Word by psycho_monkey! Absolutely agree!
TD

[emkay]

Just stumbled on this thread.
I have a small home project studio where I produce my personal projects. I write,perform etc. I am also a drummer. I have embraced alot of technology and have never looked back. I have never used AutoTune or Beat Detective in my room. I prefer to allow "human wrinkles" to remain on my tracks. That's just my preference. I spent many,many years as a studio drummer who had to lay down tracks to dry,boring click tracks. I did fine. I still do that to some extent,but mainly use loops to keep it interesting while recording the real drum performance. I have known, and still know many drummers who are quite comfortable playing to click tracks,shakers,shitty beat sequences or anything else that'll get the job done!
Whoever posted that broad inaccurate generalization"most drummers aren't solid enough to play modern rock styles without being heavily edited." obviously has had experiences with less than pro players. If you're a pro,you have no choice but to "lock" to the groove. If you can't, you might as well just enjoy your hobby doing hobby sessions for hobby engineers and hobby songwriters! Not that there's anything wrong with that! End of story.

peace for '09 and beyond

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by emkay

Just stumbled on this thread.
I have a small home project studio where I produce my personal projects. I write,perform etc. I am also a drummer. I have embraced alot of technology and have never looked back. I have never used AutoTune or Beat Detective in my room. I prefer to allow "human wrinkles" to remain on my tracks. That's just my preference. I spent many,many years as a studio drummer who had to lay down tracks to dry,boring click tracks. I did fine. I still do that to some extent,but mainly use loops to keep it interesting while recording the real drum performance. I have known, and still know many drummers who are quite comfortable playing to click tracks,shakers,shitty beat sequences or anything else that'll get the job done!
Whoever posted that broad inaccurate generalization"most drummers aren't solid enough to play modern rock styles without being heavily edited." obviously has had experiences with less than pro players. If you're a pro,you have no choice but to "lock" to the groove. If you can't, you might as well just enjoy your hobby doing hobby sessions for hobby engineers and hobby songwriters! Not that there's anything wrong with that! End of story.

peace for '09 and beyond

I said that.

I think you misunderstand me though.

Obviously a session drummer has to be able to be ultra tight (or ultra loose when needed) - I've recorded Andy Gangadeen, Mako Sakamoto (Bernard Butler's drummer of choice), Javier Weyler (Stereophonics) amongst others - I know what makes a solid drummer!

I mean that the some styles of modern rock are so metronomic that MOST drummers need editing. Most non-session drummers aren't tight enough. Some session drummers aren't either. Feel free to disagree, but I'm confident I've experienced enough drummers to know the state of play over here at least.

Plus show me the human who can phase lock with a drumloop...in that circumstance you either have to chop the loop or the human.

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by Kenny Barnes

actually, i have interned under Jesse Cannon, at cannon found soundations in NJ who did work on some of the earlier limp bizkit (sorry for the terrible band reference but it IS pro)
and he, as well as a bunch of other producers (brian mcternan, aaron sprinkle, jerry finn, andreas magnussen and rob cavallo) REFUSE to use beat detective, as it can kill a performance, but along with that, they have experienced people that they trust to edit the drums, and NO they DO NOT EDIT EVERY SINGLE HIT.. that would be ********. and i would consider those names to be "pro" because they have numerous gold and/or platinum records under their belts. and YES BD can be used right, but to really understand what it is doing and know how to use it, you should know how to edit by hand before you ever start to mess with BD. So. IMO Beat Detective sucks. Take it, or leave it.
happy beat-detecting

Ehhhh....

To say that the "pros" don't use Beat Detective (or some other form of drum editing/quantizing) is simply wrong. Obviously, it's not done by everyone, but it's definitely a common practice.

Beat Detective simply automates the editing that is generally done by hand (splicing, aligning to the grid, and filling gaps/crossfading). You don't have to use it to conform a drum performance 100% to the grid, and it can save dozens of hours of editing over the course of an edit-intensive project. It doesn't change the actual sound quality of the audio (in and of itself) and can greatly improve the workflow of editing drums. How does that make it suck?

And some of the names you've mentioned have done some INSANELY edited records in the past - Given the amount of apparent editing on some of these records, it's just hard to believe that they'd all be worried about BD killing a performance and then go on to sample-replace their metronome-perfect drum tracks.

And as far as Dave Grohl goes, you're probably thinking of the process of tracking drums and cymbals separately, which he's done in the past (with Queens of the Stone Age and I'm not sure what else) - I can assure you he's not programming or using Drumagog on any of his drum tracks.

Not trying to argue, but I wanted to throw that out there.

[cruthko]

Dave Grohl also recorded his drums and cymbals separately on Nine Inch Nail's "With Teeth" album.

[MickoLX]

this is my method in plain english...

I usually (in rock and metal acoustic drum recordings) on a PT-LE system just bus the kick and snare, sometimes hi hat to a mono channel and print into that, Note* if latency is an issue just move the print to where it needs to go before running BD*

run BD to find transients (usually set to 1/16) make edits, then just move the selection down the other tracks and using the "pink lines" to separate and edit smooth, this works fine in LE just takes a little longer than multi-track BD.

thing is, i usually sound replace everything (bar the OH's) so i should make more use of drum triggers and on the fly quantize...

i feel that multi-track BD should be offered as a separate purchase rather than bundled with the various toolkits (like the $20 MP3 option and soundreplacer).... and i have constantly emailed Avid about this, petition anyone?