Complementing Live 7: Logic 8 or Cubase 4.1?

[Timur Born]

I am planing to buy either Cubase 4.1 or Logic 8 in order to complement Live 7 for Audio tracking and editing, Midi editing and arranging while staying with Live 7 for composition and playing gigs.

Any input from experienced users regarding my usage scenario are very welcome and hoped for! Thanks in advance.


Speaking for Logic 8:

- My band-mate is kind of a Mac fanboy and all eager to buy Logic 8.
- We are in contact with a fellow musician and studio owner who uses Logic 8 in his studio, so possible future collaboration might be easier.
- Is said to come with a whole lot of nice effect-plugins (plus instruments, but as an owner of Komplete 5 I don't care too much for those).
- New combing tool for easy tracking of vocals and instruments.

Speaking against Logic:

- Not cross-plattform compatible (Mac/PC), not even VST compatible (I'm owning NI Kore though, so I can use it as a wrapper).
- Comes hard-dongled with a Mac. If the Mac needs service it's harder to find a cheap substituition for the time it takes to be repaired. I don't even own a Mac yet, but will very likely buy a Macbook Pro once the new edition comes out.


Speaking for Cubase 4.1:

- Is said to be more powerful (easier to handle) with audio-editing, tracking and mixing.
- Cross-plattform compatible (Mac/PC + VST/AU).
- Can be installed and run on any computer you happen to have around, like when you're using the computer of a friend. Just plug your dongle in and it will work.
- Comes with very mature and powerful Midi editing.
- Gives you indeep control over your system-settings, especially anything latency and timing related.

Speaking against Cubase 4.1:

- Effect-Plugins are said to be rather uninspiring, if not downright weak.
- Hardware dongle can break while on tour.
- Doesn't make the fanboy happy.


I do have one question regarding ProTools TDM support that I've read Logic comes with. How far exactly does it the support go? Can I just export my Logic set into ProTools format and thus take it along with me to a studio that's running on ProTools?

[BlueSprocket]

Steinberg just released a new update to Cubase 4. This includes over 1.5 gigs of new content for the Halion One VI. Including the Yamaha S90 piano sample (which is pretty decent).

I can't say enough good things about Cubase. It is my DAW of choice for music, the speed by which I can work, and the results I get out of it are great. The plugins that come with Cubase 4 are quite nice, I actually use them quite frequently, and I have plugs from Waves, Wave Arts, UA, etc etc.

In the past, Cubase has shipped with crap plugins, not the case anymore. Also, while in the past Cubase/Nuendo have been shaky on the mac, this is also simply no longer true. At AES, last year, every machine I saw in the steinberg booth was a mac, tell you anything? I would highly recommend getting some face time with both DAWs. But my vote would be Cubase.

[Timur Born]

Thanks alot for the reply, it's appreciated! I don't care for Instrument plugins (like the piano) too much because I own Komplete 5 and need the complementation DAW mainly for working with it's GUI and tools, but effect plugins can be important for shaping the sound.

Getting "face time" is not an easy thing, since the good old custom of publishing demo versions has been discontinued by the greedy bastards.

I will try to have a look at a recording-session with the engineer I know to be using Logic. I don't know anyone using Cubase though and having a look at it in some music-store doesn't count as gathering useful experience.

In several different posts on different forums I read that Cubase is better for recording and audio-editing related stuff. That's really bothering me when thinking about Logic, because I want to record some real instruments and vocals and have the ability to arrange and edit them in a professional manner where I don't have to think about the tool (DAW) but only about the my intended outcome (aka the DAW should make it easy and support me).

[DJDJ]

I'm in a similar situation to you, though it sounds like we make different music with our tools.

I write in ableton and mix in Logic/Cubase. On a mac.

I've used cubase for years, but switched a couple of years ago to logic, and took the time to learn it well. IMO, Overall, logic is a slightly more flexible and easy to use DAW. It's a pleasure to use, and very fast once you cusomize your key commands.

*HOWEVER*- I would say that IF mixing and working with audio is a high priority for you (and it sounds like it is), I'd strongly recommend Cubase over Logic. I find Cubase's audio editing VASTLY superior to logic's, much quicker to use, and cubase's MIDI editing is really solid too. I'd say Cubase is more balanced DAW, and Logic is a little more flexible, but weighted a bit more strongly on the MIDI side of things. Plugin wise, I love the bundled plugs that come with both, but if you've got Komplete/Kore you should be fine for most efx, though you may want to invest in a decent soft eq and compressor.

Personally, I'd say Cubase sounds like the one for you. Cross compaitibility shouldn't be much of an issue as you can always render to .wav and import into any other DAW.....



--another "devil's advocate" thought:

Live is great for editing audio as well. Like, as good as cubase, maybe better. Why not write & edit your audio in Live, and mix in Logic? That way, everybody wins. You can always rewire them together, and edit any audio in Live, while still writing/mixing in Logic. That's what I do, and I find it's the best of both worlds---

[spunkadellic]

Since you have live....go with logic...

[Joe Porto]

I have all three programs. One thing to consider is that you can use ReWire to get you Live tracks into Cubase easily. I also like Cubase better as a multitrack recorder (I mix OTB on a console).

If I only used one DAW, it would be Logic, but I think Live covers a lot of things that are easy to do in Logic, but more complicated in Cubase. Cubase simplifies some things that are more complicated in both Logic and Live. I think Cubase compliments Live more than Logic does. (Was that a question on an SAT exam?)

[Timur Born]

Thanks again for everyone's answers!

Just to make one thing clear: learning curve is irrellevant for me. Most likely I can and will learn any of those down to their deepest dirty secrets anyway.

Originally Posted by DJDJ

*HOWEVER*- I would say that IF mixing and working with audio is a high priority for you (and it sounds like it is), I'd strongly recommend Cubase over Logic. I find Cubase's audio editing VASTLY superior to logic's, much quicker to use, and cubase's MIDI editing is really solid too. I'd say Cubase is more balanced DAW, and Logic is a little more flexible, but weighted a bit more strongly on the MIDI side of things.

That seems to be the canon when it comes to comparisons of Cubase vs Logic but you seldom read details on why that would be so. Could you go some into detail on how Cubase's audio editing is "vastly" superior or what makes Logic's inferior?

Plugin wise, I love the bundled plugs that come with both, but if you've got Komplete/Kore you should be fine for most efx, though you may want to invest in a decent soft eq and compressor.

For manipulation without "character" I find Live's EQ-8 and compressor quite useful, but yes I will likely want third-party one in order to be more DAW independent and have more options. I'm also still not set to wether I need another software Reverb or not.

Personally, I'd say Cubase sounds like the one for you. Cross compaitibility shouldn't be much of an issue as you can always render to .wav and import into any other DAW.....

Yes, but I read that with Cubase you can only render one track at a time, whereas in Live I can render all tracks seperately in one move (it wont allow marking tracks for that purpose though)!?

Live is great for editing audio as well. Like, as good as cubase, maybe better. Why not write & edit your audio in Live, and mix in Logic? That way, everybody wins. You can always rewire them together, and edit any audio in Live, while still writing/mixing in Logic. That's what I do, and I find it's the best of both worlds---

I fear that I don't agree about that. Live's non-destructive audio editing is a pain to use sometimes because you have to draw all envelope curves manually. There are no destructive options unless you rerender to another track and generally the options are very restricted. Heck, you still have to draw crossfades manually for arrangement and there is no tool to organize mutiple takes and combing whatsoever, these all need manual tricks to be done.

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I have all three programs. One thing to consider is that you can use ReWire to get you Live tracks into Cubase easily. I also like Cubase better as a multitrack recorder (I mix OTB on a console).

If I only used one DAW, it would be Logic, but I think Live covers a lot of things that are easy to do in Logic, but more complicated in Cubase. Cubase simplifies some things that are more complicated in both Logic and Live. I think Cubase compliments Live more than Logic does.

Could you go some more into detail as to what makes Cubase a better multitrack recorder (I might want to record drums sometimes, but not atm) and why you think it complements Live better? I'd also like to know how do routing options compare on the three. Live can route quite alot of things, but presents some restrictions and needs some workarounds for certain tasks (like getting Midi out of a VST or accessing multi-channel VST outputs).

Frankly, if it wasn't for Live's non-linear "Session View" and its lack of competition I would completely switch away from Live. But Session View really is great for composition and live gig as soon as you couple it with some sophisticated hardware controller solutions (sophisticated meaning we do our own Reaktor/Max/Bome programming in order to make existing controllers more useable with Live).

[lowkey]

ive been running Cubase on a mac since version 2.5...yes, pre-audio and VST days Cubase4 is very reliable on my macbook pro. i dont use the bundled VSTis cause i have Komplete. The vstfx are usable, but not near my Sonalksis and NI plugins.

[Oxytoxine]

no thread is complete without a reaper fanboy chiming in, so i'll play that part here..;-)

no, seriously: i'd strongly recommend cubase, as it's a very good and balanced program. i LOVE it! but nevertheless the reaper recommendation was kind of serious:

if your intention is mainly tracking and mixing and doing the "creative part" in live, these are the strenghts of reaper. effects are ranging from good to very good IMO, but they are also decent in cubase (i think its a relict from ancient times that they are crap).

oxy

[Timur Born]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

if your intention is mainly tracking and mixing and doing the "creative part" in live, these are the strenghts of reaper. effects are ranging from good to very good IMO, but they are also decent in cubase (i think its a relict from ancient times that they are crap).

Thanks for the recommendation. I've already got Reaper installed and frequently use it to compare against when something in Live goes wrong (like: "is it my rig or is it Live?"). I just noticed that a Mac port of Reaper is in Beta. But knowing as much of Reaper as I do I know that it's Midi editing part is still way weaker than both Cubase's and Logic's. It is also lacking in the hardware Midi control surface department.

On the other hand it is quite good when it comes to routing and the only Rewire capable software that allows to use VSTs and route their output back to the Rewire Master when being a Rewire Slave.

[DJDJ]

Originally Posted by Timur

That seems to be the canon when it comes to comparisons of Cubase vs Logic but you seldom read details on why that would be so. Could you go some into detail on how Cubase's audio editing is "vastly" superior or what makes Logic's inferior?

Sure.

The dividing line for me, and it seems many others, is that you can do most of your editing in the arrange window of cubase, without having to open a separate audio editor window. You can grab regions and do things like adjust the volume of that particular audio region, fade ins & outs (which Logic will do as well), reverse a piece of audio, timestretch a piece by dragging it's length, etc. all in the arrange window. Additionally you can "offline process" i.e., you can print efx to any region you wish without having to bounce & re-import.

Logic either doesn't do these things, or do them very well

Now, granted, I make electronic music, so I find all this really useful. Of course, YMMV.

[YUGA]

Originally Posted by DJDJ

Sure.
timestretch a piece by dragging it's length, etc. all in the arrange window.

That's actually one of the new features of Logic 8!

And Logic has a nice audio editing feature that Cubase doesn't have, the new multi-take compiling feature is quite useful to compile a vocal track from multiple takes.

That being said, it's true, Cubase has an edge over Logic on audio editing in general. Especially the ability to directly control volumes of regions in the arrange window significantly impacts your workflow if you are mainly working with audio data. You usually have to write automation in Logic to do the same thing, and if you, for example, time-stretch that region, you have to rewrite the automation. I really hoped Apple to implement this feature to Logic 8 but they didn't.

I also find graphic representation of wave forms in the arrange window of Logic is a bit sloppy and unreliable especially when zoomed in.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by YUGA

That's actually one of the new features of Logic 8!

And Logic has a nice audio editing feature that Cubase doesn't have, the new multi-take compiling feature is quite useful to compile a vocal track from multiple takes.

That being said, it's true, Cubase has an edge over Logic on audio editing in general. Especially the ability to directly control volumes of regions in the arrange window significantly impacts your workflow if you are mainly working with audio data. You usually have to write automation in Logic to do the same thing, and if you, for example, time-stretch that region, you have to rewrite the automation. I really hoped Apple to implement this feature to Logic 8 but they didn't.

I also find graphic representation of wave forms in the arrange window of Logic is a bit sloppy and unreliable especially when zoomed in.

You can use hyper draw for region based volume, hyper draw can also automate per region more than just volume , you can paste these automated regions intact with automation anywhere you want .....

Can Cubase do beat mapping ? In other words change the grid to your performance ...
Can it quick swipe/comp ?
As already stated Logic can time-stretch in the arrange ...

[DJDJ]

True, logic does have timestretch in the arrange by dragging, but it's got a limit on how far, which isn't that long-- I want to say 50% stretch. For me, that's no good, as I often like to stretch things out really far as part of sound design, and the need the added flexibility. Additionally, you can repitch, pitch bend, reverse, etc. in cubase with ease, -and it will make automatic new files for all the edits- all of which is much more cumbersome in logic.

AFAIK, Cubase can do beat mapping, but I'm not 100% sure on that, as it's not a feature I normally use, though I have used it in the past in Logic, DP, & Pro Tools....

Obviously, Cubase can't quick swipe/comp, but that feature's been known to be buggy in Logic anyways.

Sure, you can always do region based automation, but I find that it's not the same, and not as fast in my experience. The ability to print effects directly to audio regions is another biggie in my book that logic completely lacks an equivalent to. Additionally in cubase, you can actually "warp" audio much like ableton without having to convert the file into an apple loop, and with much greater control that what logic/ apple loops utility affords the user.

*In My Opinion*, Cubase is simply easier, and dare I say a bit simpler, a bit more direct and elegant when it comes to audio editing, and I prefer it. However that's just my opinion. I don't really want to turn this into a "DAW Wars" thread. The truth is that I use both, value both, and see different strengths in both. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm simply adding my .02 based on my particular experience and workflow.

[YUGA]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

You can use hyper draw for region based volume, hyper draw can also automate per region more than just volume , you can paste these automated regions intact with automation anywhere you want .....

Yeah but it's different. you can create region-based automation using hyper draw but this volume automation changes the track volume, while the Cubase's one acts more like Expression, changes the region volume independently without affecting the track volume, so you can use it to adjust relative volume relationships in a track.

Even if you use a gain-control plugin like Logic's Gain or FreeG to control the track volume and use Volume Hyper Draw for region-based volume control, you need to press the assigned short cut key each time to do a similar thing. And another problem is that the resolution is too coarse (the smallest step is 0.2~0.3db), In Cubase, you can adjust the region volume in 0.01~0.02db steps.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by DJDJ

True, logic does have timestretch in the arrange by dragging, but it's got a limit on how far, which isn't that long-- I want to say 50% stretch. For me, that's no good, as I often like to stretch things out really far as part of sound design, and the need the added flexibility. Additionally, you can repitch, pitch bend, reverse, etc. in cubase with ease, -and it will make automatic new files for all the edits- all of which is much more cumbersome in logic.

AFAIK, Cubase can do beat mapping, but I'm not 100% sure on that, as it's not a feature I normally use, though I have used it in the past in Logic, DP, & Pro Tools....

Obviously, Cubase can't quick swipe/comp, but that feature's been known to be buggy in Logic anyways.

Sure, you can always do region based automation, but I find that it's not the same, and not as fast in my experience. The ability to print effects directly to audio regions is another biggie in my book that logic completely lacks an equivalent to. Additionally in cubase, you can actually "warp" audio much like ableton without having to convert the file into an apple loop, and with much greater control that what logic/ apple loops utility affords the user.

*In My Opinion*, Cubase is simply easier, and dare I say a bit simpler, a bit more direct and elegant when it comes to audio editing, and I prefer it. However that's just my opinion. I don't really want to turn this into a "DAW Wars" thread. The truth is that I use both, value both, and see different strengths in both. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm simply adding my .02 based on my particular experience and workflow.

I'll take your word for the stretch amount i never stretch anything that far .......

The OP wanted to know the differences so it's not a DAW 'war' , i think Cubase bar the UI is a capable app ..... but it all comes down to what people have used most often and are comfortable with , even though some might have both apps, it doesn't mean much when at least 80% of their time is spent on the app they have used for years ...

All of what you say in the first paragraph about pitch bend, reverse etc in Logic land is just a double click which brings you to your Audio editor , the advantage of this is that you've already zoomed into your region and are ready to manipulate, you can do this while watching the behaviour or the region in the arrange page ...

As far as effects on the region you are right in one way and wrong in another, although Logic doesn't apply effects to a region a key command for Soundtrack Pro does, you can apply you affect there and that will update your file in Logic with the effect ..... so it does not lack an equivalent .. although i'd like to see this feature directly in Logic even though there is no drama doing it this way ...

My experience with quick swipe has been great , so for what it was intented it works great ,it does not work on multi-tracked instruments , but for usual comping duties, vocs,bass parts, guitar parts it's fantastic, and a great time saver ....

Warp is a Cubase feature and yes creating an Apple loop is Logics way of dealing with it .....

I don't have a problem with using Hyperdraw to effect volume on regions, have done so for years , i do it quick and move on, i don't think to myself as YUGA pointed out about resolution, we are talking about percentages there i think you will find an accomodating setting in Hyperdraw

Like anything people should evaluate things by trying them out, forums like this can only help so far , i'm sure all power users of Logic, DP, Cubase can do each others tricks albiet some will be slower, some the same and some faster .... it's the overall workflow that counts for me that is Logic and now Logic8 has made it even simpler with the new UI , for other it's Cubase or Dp or X DAW ....

[Timur Born]

Thanks again for all the comments. There are some things I am particulary interested in:

1. What does "printing an FX to a region" mean exactly? I chose a region and say "I need this kind of reverb here" then chose another region and say "this needs some distortion"?

2. Is region processing a destructive or non-destructive process with the two (and can it be turned into destructive once you decide upon it)?

3. I do have to admit that timestretching is not among the most interesting things for me, because I usualy work with original material anyway, but sometimes you decide to change the song-tempo and want to check how it works without doing a new take right away. How does quality of timestretch (algorithms) compare between the two?

4. I read about Logic's Mutlicomb/Swipe and it sounds great. Now someone said that it is buggy, why so? I know Cubase doesn't have that, but I read that it does have a feature for combing/putting multiple-takes together. Can someone elaborate on that please?

Usually I'd try to do a good take in one piece, but since I'm also recording some instruments for ideas that I cannot play too well some help from the DAW would come in handy.

5. According to the SRC comparison page Logic's SRC is superior to Cubase's. Live's SRC is OK, but not among the best even in HI-Q mode. So I wonder if I'll have to use third-party for that or if the SRC of the other DAWs is better.

I'd love to use the hardware-SRC of my Creative X-FI, which is really fantastic. But isn't offered as an offline tool, which means you have to rerecord through the X-FI in order to use it, which is not an useable option. Unfortunately my Fireface doesn't offer that despite having its own DSP.

6. This is also very important to me: How do the Midi editing features of Logic and Cubase compare? Both started as Midi sequencers and should be quite strong in this department (Live is weakweakweak here). Say I want to program and record drum-patterns (via SPD-20 and Padkontrol) and to convinient editing to them or record keyboard-playing in multiple overdubs and do stuff like changing key and putting arpeggios together?!

Did I forget anything? Ah yes, trying out the software myself would be the prefered way, but both companies don't make that easy (if possible at all). It's more like buy it and gulp it down, no test-drive or anything. dfegad

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Timur

Thanks again for all the comments. There are some things I am particulary interested in:

1. What does "printing an FX to a region" mean exactly? I chose a region and say "I need this kind of reverb here" then chose another region and say "this needs some distortion"?

2. Is region processing a destructive or non-destructive process with the two (and can it be turned into destructive once you decide upon it)?

3. I do have to admit that timestretching is not among the most interesting things for me, because I usualy work with original material anyway, but sometimes you decide to change the song-tempo and want to check how it works without doing a new take right away. How does quality of timestretch (algorithms) compare between the two?

4. I read about Logic's Mutlicomb/Swipe and it sounds great. Now someone said that it is buggy, why so? I know Cubase doesn't have that, but I read that it does have a feature for combing/putting multiple-takes together. Can someone elaborate on that please?

Usually I'd try to do a good take in one piece, but since I'm also recording some instruments for ideas that I cannot play too well some help from the DAW would come in handy.

5. According to the SRC comparison page Logic's SRC is superior to Cubase's. Live's SRC is OK, but not among the best even in HI-Q mode. So I wonder if I'll have to use third-party for that or if the SRC of the other DAWs is better.

I'd love to use the hardware-SRC of my Creative X-FI, which is really fantastic. But isn't offered as an offline tool, which means you have to rerecord through the X-FI in order to use it, which is not an useable option. Unfortunately my Fireface doesn't offer that despite having its own DSP.

6. This is also very important to me: How do the Midi editing features of Logic and Cubase compare? Both started as Midi sequencers and should be quite strong in this department (Live is weakweakweak here). Say I want to program and record drum-patterns (via SPD-20 and Padkontrol) and to convinient editing to them or record keyboard-playing in multiple overdubs and do stuff like changing key and putting arpeggios together?!

Did I forget anything? Ah yes, trying out the software myself would be the prefered way, but both companies don't make that easy (if possible at all). It's more like buy it and gulp it down, no test-drive or anything. dfegad

Basically printing effects to regions is when you apply an effect to just a bit of audio instead of the whole track , in Logic you bring up Soundtrack Pro(Which is part of LogicStudio) via a key command apply your affect and update the file in Logic with the effect , it's destructive if you choose it to be, otherwise you can also save the original file as well. In Cubase by the looks of it you can do it in the arrange, which is a command less ...

I think the time-stretch algorithms in both are on a par , i think the bigger problem in both is transposing an audiofile in pitch , best done with a 3rd party app ...

Logic quick swipe is not very buggy at all ...... a few people have had audio move while most say they have had no problems using it when doing comps ....

Logics SRC is good , i still prefer 3rd part stuff though ....

Midi editing features in both are as good as you can get ......

Logics use of window panes is a godsend for workflow, everything is accessible from the arrange, you literally do not have to leave that one wondow workspace ....

Having the above in mind Logic is still the best value in town and comes with a 50gig library , and 3 other apps as a part of Logic Studio !

[Timur Born]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

...in Logic you bring up Soundtrack Pro(Which is part of LogicStudio) via a key command apply your affect and update the file in Logic with the effect , it's destructive if you choose it to be, otherwise you can also save the original file as well. In Cubase by the looks of it you can do it in the arrange, which is a command less ...
...

Logics use of window panes is a godsend for workflow, everything is accessible from the arrange, you literally do not have to leave that one wondow workspace ....

This sounds a bit contradicting. :P Does Soundtrack Pro integrate into Logic's GUI (Windows Panes) when you bring it up? What's great about Windows Panes how does it compare to Cubase's GUI?

One more question: Do both offer auto-crossfades like I have seen on ProTools in some studios when putting clips/combs together (I know Logic's swipe tool does that, but what about the arranger)? Judging from the answers so far it sounds as if Cubase brings that mess-in-the-arrangement feeling of ProTools while Logic opens separate editors (like Soundtrack Pro) for messing with clips and samples!?

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Timur

This sounds a bit contradicting. :P Does Soundtrack Pro integrate into Logic's GUI (Windows Panes) when you bring it up? What's great about Windows Panes how does it compare to Cubase's GUI?

One more question: Do both offer auto-crossfades like I have seen on ProTools in some studios when putting clips/combs together (I know Logic's swipe tool does that, but what about the arranger)? Judging from the answers so far it sounds as if Cubase brings that mess-in-the-arrangement feeling of ProTools while Logic opens separate editors (like Soundtrack Pro) for messing with clips and samples!?

No Soundtrack Pro becomes like a one command external editor for applying effects on a region ..... so it's not part of logics window panes .....

Window panes are like a pallet of colours always available to splash on the canvas, very nicely thought out .......look at single window design ....

Apple - Logic Studio - Logic Pro 8

Logic offers a great degree of flexibilty with cross fades , i think Logic's crossfade architecture is better than P.Tools .... you can select a groups of tracks and give seperate values for both fade in and out and it will do the lot of em in one go ..... yes you can have automatic crossfades in the arrange .....

Logic does some things on the Arrange and some in the audio editor which are a part of your window panes, accessed by double clicking on the Audio or on the window panes name itself, look at the audio editor like zooming in on your region in the arrange page with one click .......

You might want to hop on youtube and have a look at what people are doing in Logic 8 or Cubase , plenty of stuff there ...... good luck in your quest

[Timur Born]

Watching YouTube sounds like a good idea. I also just had a look at the demonstration of "region-based" Multitake managment, very neat and surely useful. Does Cubase offer something similiar?

Using a second audio-editor window for certain tasks surely isn't that much of a hassle. But what about audio-editing features? I like that region FX printing idea of Cubase, does Logic offer anything similiar (putting FX only on selected parts of a clip)?

Joe Porto claimed that Cubase is a better multiTRACK recorder. I wonder how so? What do one offer for multiTRACK recording that the other doesn't?

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Timur

Watching YouTube sounds like a good idea. I also just had a look at the demonstration of "region-based" Multitake managment, very neat and surely useful. Does Cubase offer something similiar?

Using a second audio-editor window for certain tasks surely isn't that much of a hassle. But what about audio-editing features? I like that region FX printing idea of Cubase, does Logic offer anything similiar (putting FX only on selected parts of a clip)?

Joe Porto claimed that Cubase is a better multiTRACK recorder. I wonder how so? What do one offer for multiTRACK recording that the other doesn't?

Multitake is great in Logic, Cubase uses lanes if i remember correctly , i like Logic's handling better(Cubase users will disagree) you can even do various takes,name them and joggle quickly between them to see what you like best ...... there is just too many things to list , but Logic has hide tracks Cubase doesn't, this is especially helpful when working with big track counts , Logic also has multitake folders, which means you can pack whole mix elements or multitrack drums in folder which take up one track on your screen but can be opened up to reveal whatever you decide to pack , folders are especially great when picking the best parts of multiple takes of a drummer , you can cut the folders and mix and match your various takes, when you cut the folder you are cutting a whole multitrack drum take at once and moving it as if it were a single track., once you make your comp you can paste the parts together and open up the folder with all your selected takes intact ...

Maybe Cubase guy's can give you the way they do the above ....

Printing effects in regions as i've already explained can be done in Soundtrack Pro which is a key command in Logic , you get Soundtrack Pro when you buy Logic Studio ...

I don't know why Joe Porto feels Cubase is a better multi-track recorder or his reasoning, maybe Joe can chime in why he feels that is the case , i don't share that view and i think they are both very capable in this area ......

[BlueSprocket]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Multitake is great in Logic, Cubase uses lanes if i remember correctly , i like Logic's handling better(Cubase users will disagree) you can even do various takes,name them and joggle quickly between them to see what you like best ...... there is just too many things to list , but Logic has hide tracks Cubase doesn't, this is especially helpful when working with big track counts , Logic also has multitake folders, which means you can pack whole mix elements or multitrack drums in folder which take up one track on your screen but can be opened up to reveal whatever you decide to pack , folders are especially great when picking the best parts of multiple takes of a drummer , you can cut the folders and mix and match your various takes, when you cut the folder you are cutting a whole multitrack drum take at once and moving it as if it were a single track., once you make your comp you can paste the parts together and open up the folder with all your selected takes intact ...

Maybe Cubase guy's can give you the way they do the above ....

Printing effects in regions as i've already explained can be done in Soundtrack Pro which is a key command in Logic , you get Soundtrack Pro when you buy Logic Studio ...

I don't know why Joe Porto feels Cubase is a better multi-track recorder or his reasoning, maybe Joe can chime in why he feels that is the case , i don't share that view and i think they are both very capable in this area ......

Cubase does all of that actually, even the folders, I've been using them for years. And once you realize the power of "Lanes" in an ADR session, you will consider it a gift from God himself. Lanes also works well for cutting together everything from Guitar solos to Vocals to well, pick the instruement.

Also play order track are cool, completely rearrange a whole multitrack song based on parts and generate a new session from it. That feature alone has saved my ass twice when a band has decided they wanted the bridge to run through twice, or that the second chorus really was better than the first. It also makes cutting parts from different takes from my 2" really quick and easy. Cubase is really an audio editing powerhouse once you get into it.

[Timur Born]

This turns out to be a very informative thread will no trolling going on at all.

That "play order track" feature is really interesting for someone coming from Live, because at least it comes close to non-linear editing/arrangement. On the other hand I've got Live for that, don't I?

Do Lanes in Cubase offer near the convinience that Swipe Comb of Logic offers (like the automatic region markers and cross-fading)?

I am also reading the "best automation" thread and wonder how Logic and Cubase compare with automation. Someone mentions how Pro Tool's "Snapshot" automation feature is really missing in Logic and thus doesn't allow him to do live concert mixes with Logic (and also seems to be problematic for DVD with him).

[BlueSprocket]

Since I'm playing cubase fanboy here, I'll keep going.

Lanes doesn't do automatic region marking, to my knowledge. You are able to crossfade across two takes once you have the basic start and endpoints for the comp setup. Its actually a pretty smooth system for that. You are able to rename takes (depending on what mode you're recording in).

This video does a half decent job of showing how lanes works. But it should be noted that lanes does NOT require that you use loop recording. Even though that is how its most often demoed.

YouTube - Cubase Lanes

One feature the video doesn't show is the "Delete Overlaps" function. This function will take the selected regions and create a completed comp from them and remove the unused regions from the track. All in one swoop. Saves you from using the "eraser" tool and clicking all over the place. The thing to remember with Cubase is that you can do things a multitude of ways and each user ultimately finds the workflow that works best for them.

I find the automation in Cubase/Nuendo to be some of the most powerful in any DAW. You have Touch, Latch, X-over, and Trim (a personal favorite) automation modes, and I feel like I'm leaving one out. Every parameter with a channel is automatable, that includes plugins. Very powerful.

[Timur Born]

Thanks for the video-link BlueSprocket! That coupled with your explanation was quite enlighting. So it seems that in terms of multitake handling both Cubase and Logic bring some very handy tools to your disposal.

I'd like to know more about automation, because that's something I never really cared much about. In Live automation is all manual drawing/turning knobs and before that I was recording either on four-track on in studios. So I don't know what those different automation technics do in detail that you listed.

Both seem to come with the option of automation lanes (either showing only one automation parameter on the arrangement or showing several at once via lanes). Live offers both fixed grids of different resolution and quantized grids of different note-values. You can only record automation in arrangement in Live as far as I know, but you can drag it over to Session View afterwards and still handle it manually there.

[TheRealRoach]

Although some of the other Cubase fanboys have jumped in, I'll hop in as well.

Originally Posted by Timur

Thanks again for all the comments. There are some things I am particulary interested in:

1. What does "printing an FX to a region" mean exactly? I chose a region and say "I need this kind of reverb here" then chose another region and say "this needs some distortion"?

In Cubase you can either offline process a region my right-clicking and then selecting any of your plugins and preview and then process it in an non-destructive way. In fact, if you have processed it with a reverb plugin, and then afterward EQ'ed that final product, and then furthermore compressed it, you can go BACK to the first reverb setting, adjust it, and it will re-render all other plugins that followed consecutively, automatically. And of course, you can record any FX returns via internal patching (this includes the use of external effects plugins (for which Cubase uses automatic plugin delay compensation, even for hardware ourboard processing).

2. Is region processing a destructive or non-destructive process with the two (and can it be turned into destructive once you decide upon it)?

In Cubase it's non-destructive. You can go back at any time no matter how many other layers of offline processing you've added since. You can make all of your processing destructive if you like as well by using the Bounce option.

3. I do have to admit that timestretching is not among the most interesting things for me, because I usualy work with original material anyway, but sometimes you decide to change the song-tempo and want to check how it works without doing a new take right away. How does quality of timestretch (algorithms) compare between the two?

meh... time stretching in either is not that great in my opinion. Though not much IS good outside of Serato's Pitch n Time.

4. I read about Logic's Mutlicomb/Swipe and it sounds great. Now someone said that it is buggy, why so? I know Cubase doesn't have that, but I read that it does have a feature for combing/putting multiple-takes together. Can someone elaborate on that please?

Cubase has had its version of "multicomb/swipe" for more than 5 year now. They call it "Lanes". I'm sure you can find some youtube videos on it. By way, you can use it over many tracks (i.e. for drums) all at the same time by effectively creating an edit group so that anything you do for one track (like the bass drum) you do for all tracks. Cubase has also used auto-crossfades for the past 5 years or so which you can either select project wide, or customize per track as is needed. I don't think I've drawn a manual fade a few times over the past few years!

5. According to the SRC comparison page Logic's SRC is superior to Cubase's. Live's SRC is OK, but not among the best even in HI-Q mode. So I wonder if I'll have to use third-party for that or if the SRC of the other DAWs is better.

I'd love to use the hardware-SRC of my Creative X-FI, which is really fantastic. But isn't offered as an offline tool, which means you have to rerecord through the X-FI in order to use it, which is not an useable option. Unfortunately my Fireface doesn't offer that despite having its own DSP.

Sorry, not sure what SRC is...

6. This is also very important to me: How do the Midi editing features of Logic and Cubase compare? Both started as Midi sequencers and should be quite strong in this department (Live is weakweakweak here). Say I want to program and record drum-patterns (via SPD-20 and Padkontrol) and to convinient editing to them or record keyboard-playing in multiple overdubs and do stuff like changing key and putting arpeggios together?!

This is no problem for Logic or Cubase really. Both of their MIDI editing windows (matrix type view) are quite similar. I know that Cubase 4 has recently added the edit-in-place feature (turning your MIDI track on the arrange page into a matrix editor)... not sure if logic has done this yet.

Did I forget anything? Ah yes, trying out the software myself would be the prefered way, but both companies don't make that easy (if possible at all). It's more like buy it and gulp it down, no test-drive or anything. dfegad

You may as well find a studio in your town that runs either both, or a studio for each. Pay them a bit of cash to come in and noodle around. That or demo it in store.

[redroom]

Most of the Pros and Cons of Logic and CUbase have been spelled out here

I will add a Big one that I find indespensible in Cubase ( the drum editor )
also I love the fact that Cubase has a Listen buss so I can lets say solo
a full drumkit but if I want to quickly hear more Kick I press listen on that kick
I can hear more kick whilst still being in solo on the full drumkit.

Now Logis biggest strength to me has always been how effeicent it is at low
latencys but with todays fast machines this is not such an issue anymore.

[manning1]

Timur .
in my opinion one of the best low cost feature packed solutions for song creation today is reaper plus RealBand (RB.).
RB will do some things ive seen no other product do.
basically think of always haveing real instrument session players to work on songs with.
ie..your own personal session players.
great for creating song ideas and quikly fleshing out bed traks.
while others are working laboriously on bed traks within a short time you do your bed traks in RB then import into reaper for your up front lead traks.
i just dont have time to go into it all as it would take pages.
but for more info on RB , you can read about it at pgmusic.com.
it also has a huge number of midi features.
at the very least listen to some of the demos of real drums and the other real instruments.
just be aware you need a PC. any old pc for a couple of hundred buks should do the job.
keep an open mind. you might find RB plus reaper a very interesting solution.

ps..also RB has no hardware dongles to worry about .

[Timur Born]

Alot of valuable informations!

There's also a thread on the Apple Logic forum comparing the two. Some points that have been made:

Pro Cubase:

- I prefer Cubase's audio setup and excellent sample editor.
- Logic does not have a dedicated drum editor or MIDI effects.
- Time Warp - the ability to drag bar lines, against picture if necessary, whereby tempi are updated on the fly. Invaluable tool for spotting picture, and tempo mapping pre-recorded material.
- Control Room.
- External Instruments (it's involved in Logic)
- External FX (likewise)
- Mixer automation synced to Bars, not absolute time, and the ability to switch states dynamically.
- Logical track organisation.
- The meter bridge in the SX mixer
- The ability to change volume of a region without using automation or hyper draw.
- The ability to disable all plugins on a track with 1 mouse click
- Easy Multi instruments.
- Also, Logic only uses AU instruments and effects so any VST instruments you own will have to be cross/upgraded to work with Logic. Either that or you will have to purchase a third party VST to AU software adapter.

- since Apple purchased Logic updates and bug fixes seem almost non-existent. Apple takes their own sweet time and never owns up to any problems. (like the airport update that hosed so many systems). Cubase has seen several revisions and just jumped to 4.5 in the same time as Logic's two incremental updates.

That last argument is a strong point.

Pro Logic:

- The ability to bounce multi tracks to audio in 1 pass
- The routing capability of logic 8 is insanely nice
- Loop browser
- Plugins
- Master fader on every chanel in the inspector
- Screen sets and Key commands
- Once you get to know logic, you will wish you had switched sooner.

In the end it seems wisest to get both, but I do have to start somewhere without putting all my money onto DAWs when I need alot of other stuff first (like a laptop).