Bass sounds like a Duck Fart
chk027
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#1
2nd September 2008
Old 2nd September 2008
  #1
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Thread Starter
Bass sounds like a Duck Fart

anyone have any tried and true way to mix picked bass (acoustic rock genre)

Some songs it sits well with little effort and others it sounds like a duck fart, too heavy, too quiet, can't find the pocket.....

I use a parametric boost around 240 cutting the kick, a little boost at 2000 and 8000 but very little. Hpf around 50 and sometime a LPF around 10000 or as low as 340 to give it its own space. trying everything (amp simulators, channel strips, EQ the balls off it, you name it.......some mixes are busy an I want the bass to stand out not fall in the bakground.

after that try to mix it in there best I can....no panning or double tracking

using logic 8

duck fart, no good!
#2
2nd September 2008
Old 2nd September 2008
  #2
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Jay Dee's Avatar
 

Some duck farts can be quite euphonic, actually. In matter of fact, I have it on inside source that a major sample library is being produced (I'm afraid I can't name names due to NDA, etc.) consisting of every duck fart one could reasonably expect to need in a production environment.

The initials are BFF, B for "Big", F for "Farts" and, well I'll let you guess what the other F stands for.
#3
2nd September 2008
Old 2nd September 2008
  #3
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maybe you used one of these??
chk027
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#4
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #4
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Thread Starter
a duck fart people, a duck fart.....someone please gotta have a solution.

do I jack the mids?

triple track?

how do I defend against the duck fart bass sound?
#5
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chk027 View Post
a duck fart people, a duck fart.....someone please gotta have a solution.
I thought a duck fart was a mixed drink? Maybe you need one of those!

Regards,
Bruce
#6
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #6
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The dman's Avatar
 

First you get a duck....Oh never mind
#7
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
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#8
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #8
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Anonymatt's Avatar
 

You mentioned something about a pocket...
chk027
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#9
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #9
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomatic View Post
The duck fart's peak frequency is between 200 and 300hz....

Boosting is not recommended.

Nomatic

HIDEOUT STUDIOS :: AUSTIN.TX
I HPF all the other instruments but kick @ 250, should I take that up to 300 or will that gut the song?

I will try that, and or Parametric EQ the balance of the 3, duck fart bass sound v. the kick v. the acoustic g's

Thanks Nomatic

vote yes, and pass the anti-duck fart legislation and put an end to the duck fart sound once and for all!
#10
4th September 2008
Old 4th September 2008
  #10
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The bass (generic) area is the one of the hardest to mix mainly because environmental factors can make it nearly impossible to mix:

1. The room you're in can really mar it's perception. Are you working in a properly tuned and treated studio or in a home or project studio? It could just be that you simply can't hear what you need to hear due to bass cancellation. Try listening in another part of the room, against the back wall, or even closer to the floor: does it sound different? Maybe better?

2. Are the speakers you own full range? Are your amplifiers of high quality? Has the placement of your speakers been optimized for the room you're working in?

Assuming the above is not an issue, make sure your Bass in solo sounds fine (no duck farting); for example aggressive compressor settings can really mess a bass up. BTW, center pan your bass and keep it mono if you can: you'll get the acoustic support of both speakers that way, and less likelyhood of any stereo cancellation. Then it comes down to making sure the Bass has its proper acoustic space and it's signature Fq area. Have you found a frequency niche for the Bass in your mix? Do you have other instruments in the same Bass range? You could try ducking them. or even better duck only the bass area of competing instruments, or vice versa... the rest is really just mix saavy and experience. It's impossible to suggest any specific techniques without actually hearing the context.

Years ago I was stuck in a small room making mixes for video games, with no budget for studio mixing. I just couldn't hear anything below 50 Hz reliably so I just hi-passed it. The mixes don't have the "beef" they could have but the result was preferable to an out-of-control bass area.

I'm pretty sure other people here had similar thoughts but just weren't up to typing. To them I say "Duck you!!"
chk027
Thread Starter
#11
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #11
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertone View Post
The bass (generic) area is the one of the hardest to mix mainly because environmental factors can make it nearly impossible to mix:

1. The room you're in can really mar it's perception. Are you working in a properly tuned and treated studio or in a home or project studio? It could just be that you simply can't hear what you need to hear due to bass cancellation. Try listening in another part of the room, against the back wall, or even closer to the floor: does it sound different? Maybe better?

2. Are the speakers you own full range? Are your amplifiers of high quality? Has the placement of your speakers been optimized for the room you're working in?

Assuming the above is not an issue, make sure your Bass in solo sounds fine (no duck farting); for example aggressive compressor settings can really mess a bass up. BTW, center pan your bass and keep it mono if you can: you'll get the acoustic support of both speakers that way, and less likelyhood of any stereo cancellation. Then it comes down to making sure the Bass has its proper acoustic space and it's signature Fq area. Have you found a frequency niche for the Bass in your mix? Do you have other instruments in the same Bass range? You could try ducking them. or even better duck only the bass area of competing instruments, or vice versa... the rest is really just mix saavy and experience. It's impossible to suggest any specific techniques without actually hearing the context.

Years ago I was stuck in a small room making mixes for video games, with no budget for studio mixing. I just couldn't hear anything below 50 Hz reliably so I just hi-passed it. The mixes don't have the "beef" they could have but the result was preferable to an out-of-control bass area.

I'm pretty sure other people here had similar thoughts but just weren't up to typing. To them I say "Duck you!!"
Thank You, I DI the bass through the Apogee Duet to Logic.....when mixing the room is bad, just an empty bedroom home studio, the bass didn't sound like a Duck Fart when tracking, just in the mix.....I used lite comp going in to control the players peaks...

I normally set the Bass freq between 50hz and 250hz, but rarely lowpass the bass at 250 because I want to boost some of the higher freq of the bass.

Do you think using the HPF at 50 is too agressive? Am I loosing too much sound that way?

I kinda hate ducking the bass behide the kick, I know many like this technique but when I hear that note on the kick fade it really bothers me, so I guess thats why I used the parametric so much...

I need to keep working hard and get this right I know I can do it, I can defeat the duck fart sound!

Thanks for your time Under!
chk027
Thread Starter
#12
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #12
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
You have talked about the recording, but nothing about the bass. What bass is it? What strings? What are you using for a bass amp, or is it direct, or both? All things more important than futzing with eq i.m.o. And then, what microphone, if an amp, how far is mic from amp? Any compression?
I knew this was coming, the bass guy was using a MIM fender that didnt sound that bad very clean and the pickup had plenty of juice with a decent clean sound, string were D'adario and were new. it certainly wasn't a high end bass, but more a budget instrument.....

It was Direct using the Apogee Duet instrument line in, with a about 25-30db's on the preamp gain. Very lite compression if any using the logic's plug.

I thought the tracking was good enough to produce a solid simple bass sound. I have been using the amp simulator in logic when needed but not overdoing it.

Feedback would be welcomed, the bass is tough sometimes for me.

Thanks SG
#13
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #13
Gear addict
 

Experienced amatuer opinion incoming:
I am serious about the low end of my acoustic guitars, and I tune LOW sometimes. I like to blend in a pickup with the mic(s), LPF it, then pultec it, then blend in. HPF the mic'd signal. Maybe this will help?
But I also really hate acoustic guitar bass (as opposed to upright bass) and recommend a J-bass or even a Starfire or Rivoli in otherwise acoustic sessions. I let that acoustic bass thing go years ago. Sounds like Shite. Looks cool on MTV unplugged, but that's about all it's good for.
#14
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #14
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

14 posts and nobody has mentioned Duck Dunn yet? He is the master and originator of ........oh, never mind.
Try a hardware La2a in parallel and don't eq the crap out of it. that's my best de-farting technique.
#15
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
14 posts and nobody has mentioned Duck Dunn yet? He is the master and originator of ........oh, never mind.
Try a hardware La2a in parallel and don't eq the crap out of it. that's my best de-farting technique.

I dont know why im telling you this...probobly makes no sense at all, but one of my friends ive known since grade school's FATHER is named "Doug Dunn" and he plays bass, looks identical to this duck dunn guy(though hes almost 7 feet tall) and...there are about 9 million inside jokes we have about him.

none of us ever knew about this real Duck Dunn guy, you posting this just caused a room full of us to laugh for like 30 mins straight. just a bizarre coincidence that we were hangin out by my computer watching videos and saw this

ah well. FWIW
chk027
Thread Starter
#16
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #16
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I am first a bass player. I started playing it at age 6 or 7. That was a long time ago.

I am not a fan of direct bass, only, but people do have success with that. What I did find, especially during my time with a Bass Pod, is that I got what I thought was the greatest sound I ever got on the bass, whether it was on my big speakers, or any of my headphones. Really fun to jam, solo. As soon as I put it into a mix it just collapsed. Subtle tones that you get on bass when solo'd are often useless in the context of a whole song. You need to try things while playing in the mix or jamming with others. Usually requires a bass amp in my experience. Especially the right Ampeg amp.

It has to do with punch. The punch of the bass guitar can make or break the song.
I think you get what I'm saying, and I take your word for it. I think this is where the struggle lies. DI = Duck Fart, which really needs to be called a DF.

Thanks again
js1
#17
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #17
js1
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Hummm, a MIM Fender should mix in pretty well. I usually find Fenders easy, some compression, and a little clarity EQ (see where it's stomping on the other tracks and remove a bit)

But (especially with bass), don't confuse timing and touch with tone. If the bass isn't in the pocket, EQ and compression won't really help. EQ can't put the bass in the pocket.

js
#18
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #18
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

Waves make a De-flatulator. It's pretty industry standard when trying to remove a human fart... don't know if it works on Duck farts though. As always... YMMV.
#19
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #19
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You need some realtraps and/or a new preamp.

Gustav
#20
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #20
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Give that duck some good ole pinto beans. That should solve your problem
#21
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #21
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I had some ducks take up residence somewhat unexpectedly in my swimming pool once, a few years ago. They wouldn't budge even when I went out and yelled at them. After a couple of days there were duck poops everywhere at the bottom of the pool. I finally had to take a broom and shoo them out and even then the female put up a good fight. And my pool guy had a hell of a time cleaning it up.

We didn't swim for about a month, kept putting chlorine in, etc. and finally it cleared things up.
#22
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #22
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Unless you have a really great pre and channel then DI will probably sound farty. Bass amps/cabs do a LOT of work to the tone of the bass compared to the sterile tone of a bass straight into a DI. You would be better off miking the the speaker cabinet of a mediocre rig, then DI'ing in a mediocre direct input.

Some channels I do like a lot for DI bass which you might want to rent/try would be a UA 6176, or Focusrite ISA220.

My fave combination for miking is an Ampeg SVT-CL/410 cab as well as an Ampeg B-15N cranked, recorded to seperate tracks. ohhhhhh yeahhhh.

Re-record it. Surprisingly bass is an instrument that has to be recorded the way you want it to sound in the final mix. Any invasive surgery into the bass sound usually just leads to more flatulence
#23
5th September 2008
Old 5th September 2008
  #23
Gear maniac
 

brand new strings dont record well IMO, especially if picked.

Try raising the instruments intonation.

and I cant believe nobody has said but- try a different bass!
chk027
Thread Starter
#24
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #24
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by slopeshoulder View Post
Experienced amatuer opinion incoming:
I am serious about the low end of my acoustic guitars, and I tune LOW sometimes. I like to blend in a pickup with the mic(s), LPF it, then pultec it, then blend in. HPF the mic'd signal. Maybe this will help?
But I also really hate acoustic guitar bass (as opposed to upright bass) and recommend a J-bass or even a Starfire or Rivoli in otherwise acoustic sessions. I let that acoustic bass thing go years ago. Sounds like Shite. Looks cool on MTV unplugged, but that's about all it's good for.
oh, its not an acoustic bass, just the rest of the instrumentation are in the arrangement. The bass is electric.
chk027
Thread Starter
#25
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #25
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labs View Post
You need some realtraps and/or a new preamp.

Gustav
I have a Grace 101's DI, will that do the trick??

I don't think it is that much better by my ear so i just stayed with the Duet's pre.....
#26
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #26
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chk027 View Post
anyone have any tried and true way to mix picked bass (acoustic rock genre)

Some songs it sits well with little effort and others it sounds like a duck fart, too heavy, too quiet, can't find the pocket.....

I use a parametric boost around 240 cutting the kick, a little boost at 2000 and 8000 but very little. Hpf around 50 and sometime a LPF around 10000 or as low as 340 to give it its own space. trying everything (amp simulators, channel strips, EQ the balls off it, you name it.......some mixes are busy an I want the bass to stand out not fall in the bakground.

after that try to mix it in there best I can....no panning or double tracking

using logic 8

duck fart, no good!
You're boosting at 240? There might just be your problem. That can be a fart frequency for sure!

Try taking all that EQ and other crap off it and if it still doesn't sound good, retrack it. Don't lowpass it like that, your ears need those upper mids to help pick out the bass sound. There should be no need to highpass it either. Don't do anything to it and if it isn't cutting through, turn it up.

Like someone said earlier, it needs to be in the pocket as well.

Correct notes that are too loud/quiet with volume automation, don't overcompress either.
chk027
Thread Starter
#27
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #27
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
You're boosting at 240? There might just be your problem. That can be a fart frequency for sure!

Try taking all that EQ and other crap off it and if it still doesn't sound good, retrack it. Don't lowpass it like that, your ears need those upper mids to help pick out the bass sound. There should be no need to highpass it either. Don't do anything to it and if it isn't cutting through, turn it up.

Like someone said earlier, it needs to be in the pocket as well.

Correct notes that are too loud/quiet with volume automation, don't overcompress either.
Good call, I just tried that and I'm starting to feel it coming round a bit, no HPF either? OK I will give it a go. I hope the low end doesn't build up to much, I did cut the low off the acoustic guitars at 250hz, do you think that is too much?

I think I will just cut the tones fighting the duck for now. This will let the duck breathe a bit.

back to work

and thanks
chk027
Thread Starter
#28
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #28
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I am first a bass player. I started playing it at age 6 or 7. That was a long time ago.

I am not a fan of direct bass, only, but people do have success with that. What I did find, especially during my time with a Bass Pod, is that I got what I thought was the greatest sound I ever got on the bass, whether it was on my big speakers, or any of my headphones. Really fun to jam, solo. As soon as I put it into a mix it just collapsed. Subtle tones that you get on bass when solo'd are often useless in the context of a whole song. You need to try things while playing in the mix or jamming with others. Usually requires a bass amp in my experience. Especially the right Ampeg amp.

It has to do with punch. The punch of the bass guitar can make or break the song.
I agree with that 100%, and that why I'm pissed off, I don't even want to mix a damn thing if it doesn't have a decent low end. Thanks for the advice.
#29
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #29
Gear addict
just replay it using the 'muted bass' in Logic's exs24 sample player - then apply the presets for bass in logic's eq and compressor
chk027
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#30
6th September 2008
Old 6th September 2008
  #30
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by loaf View Post
just replay it using the 'muted bass' in Logic's exs24 sample player - then apply the presets for bass in logic's eq and compressor
Explain more, I know there are some tech type solutions, I never thought of this one. Is that one of the channel strips????

Thank Loaf
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