LOGIC SUCKS! The rant post...

[Robzo]

I HATE LOGIC!!!

In absence of the having the ability to actually communicate with anyone in a position to do anything to or for that program (or the geniuses who program it *Apple excluded*), my soul needs respite. I need to vent my frustrations with people who share the knowledge of how shockingly asinine this program is.

Yes, yes we all know it's got it's good points and there's no perfect DAW out there. I know all that rainbow sunshine crap. Sure, Logic has it's strengths, but I'm not concerned with those things in this post. What I wanna talk about is how stupid this dirty wh@*e of a program is. I'm so frustrated and pissed and hurt and depressed and angry with Logic right now. And I have been for the last...well...basically since I realized the program was a confusing, convoluted, deceiving little turd monster served in a dirty ashtray. So this is where we can all bitch and complain and ponder about the program and maybe we can get some relief from the cold, desolate plain of that bastard child of a program in the warmth of each other's shared pain.

I've been corresponding with friends a lot lately on Logic bugs, so I'm a little burned out at the thought of typing out all my gripes again at this hour. Again, this is not a thread for people looking for help. This is pure gluttonous venting. Don't need someone coming around with solutions or trying to brighten up the day. It's bright cause I now have a place to spew all the pent up frustrations from my head being rattled by Logic's cage. So feel free to join in the celebration...or not. I'll continue to put my frustration of the moment here as a log that may come in useful someday when the programmers actually care about their users.

All I can cough up in my current state is a couple little "niggles" as a british zine editor has called them. For now I'll start with...

-Isn't it ridiculous that if Logic doesn't find an audio file upon loading a song that you can skip the first one and then on second one, the "skip" option in the dialogue box changes to "skip all"? That's the option. Skip All or find it manually, or cancel the whole bloody thing. Smart, guys. Very smart.

-And doing processing of audio in the sample editor? Make a backup. But where is the backup made? What's the difference between a copy and a backup? And why would we want to peform audio processing on the original? And why can't we undo things in the sample editor? Ever heard of NON-DESTRUCTIVE EDITNG?

-Oh and lock. Doesn't it make sense to have the option of locking to tempo or SMPTE?

-And merge record? Must we really, really use the gluestick after every new pass on using "capture last take"?

-Speaking of "takes"... how about them? Aren't they useful? Do we really need to create a skyscraper of tracks vertically when multi-tracking?


Ok. I feel slightly better. I'm going to bed.

[John The Cut]

I agree. Move onto Cubase SX and your life will be all roses and clean ashtrays.

One thing that really annoyed me about Logic was the Piano Roll Editor. Its just a joke. Click and ticks and all that crap! How hard is it to change the velocity of a note - surely you dont need another editor for that?

I tried, I really did - but then I just thought ah - **** it!

[007]

Ditto here.

I bought Logic Pro 6 last summer with the intent of learning the program that would do it all. I learned on Cakewalk years ago, then moved over to ProTools, Reason and more recently, Ableton Live. I figured Logic would bridge all the gaps left by the other programs, between video work, soft-synths, rex files, etc., seemed like a no-brainer. Oh my, how wrong was I.

Germans created this thing? What happened to sleek, ergonomic, simple, elegant and functional? Logic is down right ugly to look at, bloated, cluttered with icons and buttons and windows within windows. Looks like the control panel to a nuclear plant, when I all I wanted was to just start recordiing. Powerful, absolutely, but perhaps more than most people's needs.

2 months after the purchase I was still tweaking environments and setting and not making any music, wondering why it's taking me 3 mouse-steps to accomplish the simplest tasks, things I would do in PT in about 5 seconds.

The day Ableton announced Live 4 with the new midi features and vst support, my copy of Logic went up on Craigslist. Sold the next day for a couple hundred bucks less than what I paid for it. It was one of the best days of my life. Productivity has increased exponentially and I haven't looked back.

[Roger Starr]

I willing to believe that Cubase (or Nuendo, since they're almost the same thing anyway) is more intuitive and very stable, but to state that it's all roses and sunshine is far to much of wrong propoganda. It's software too and has bugs in the skin too.

Roger

[John The Cut]

Fair enough. Point taken. I meant in the context of moving from Logic, and all the problems described, Cubase is a breath of fresh air (minty flavour).

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by mogWai

I agree. Move onto Cubase SX and your life will be all roses and clean ashtrays.

One thing that really annoyed me about Logic was the Piano Roll Editor. Its just a joke. Click and ticks and all that crap! How hard is it to change the velocity of a note - surely you dont need another editor for that?

I tried, I really did - but then I just thought ah - **** it!

Select the velocity tool and raise or lower the velocity, or have a screenset
with a matrix and event editor open, click on the note and lower it from the event list. Its easy, if you actually know the program. I'm sure there is bullshit in Cubase SX that you won't like either, none of these programs are perfect. Historically Cubase has been a really buggy program. Logic on the other hand has been solid. Its a pita to learn but once you do, it works great. It's been a solid reliable tool

[Robzo]

I learned on Digital Performer 3. Sure, there were a few bugs that bothered me. But ooohhh man. Logic taught me the definition of buggy. And ********. My workflow in Logic has NEVER been what it was in DP. It seems like such a distant, awesome dream. Gosh, I would sit down, lay down some MIDI tracks, make some audio, do some time stretching in the main page. Zoom by grabbing the SPL. Copy and paste, make the audio file a duplicate in two clicks and tweak it even more. And it kept track of all of this in the nice little audio file window. Granted I wasn't doing any soft synth stuff, it was all outboard MIDI gear and audio. But gee...what I wouldn't give to be able to be that free, fast and happy again. I could always sit down and quickly get done what I needed to do. Now unfortunately, the way I work on my own (and within the context of the other people I work with) I must use Loghack. We all hate Logic. But...the other users don't know other programs, and our whole workflow is (sadly) centered around this program. But...we all bitch every day at how stupid the program is. Plus, we all use lots of soft synths and unfortunately, I don't think there's other programs out there that can handle soft synths for scoring the way that demon child of the Germans can. It's as if the programmers simply wanted to punish their users- continuing to create new and often times meaningless features while speed, userability, stability and basic working functions were tossed to the wayside.

We've been thinking about making t-shirts that say LOGIC SUCKS. I've got a list of people already who want one.

There are so many times I've wished for a bounty hunter to find the head programmer and bring him to me so I could ask him just what the hell was going through his brain when he programmed Logic. God I would love to hear his explanations for that program. I'd pay good money for that. And then I'd ask him why 'such and such' bug exists? Didn't you test your program before releasing it to the public!? Why do you hate humanity? Why don't you pay attention to your users? And HAVE YOU EVER TRIED USING YOUR OWN PROGRAM TO CREATE MUSIC? The answer to that last question HAS to be no. Cause it's like putting your head in a slowly rotating helicopter propeller! Ever tried using another program, buddy?! Any other "pro" application on the market?? Obviously not, cause you'd realize how futile all the "plethora of user functions" in your program really are. You'd hang your head in shame over creating such a illogical piece of...

whew...man. This is great!

[Robzo]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Logic on the other hand has been solid.

dfegad

[bigbaby987]

apparently you don't know sssshow to use the program.... granted it takes some getting used to, but once you do it's smooth...

[Yutaka]

For my use, Cubase SX3 on G5 has not crashed once during normal use since I bought it in December. Only time I saw it crash were when I was trying out some freeware plug-ins. It is a great piece of software - well designed and it seems they took customer feedback seriously.

[bigbaby987]

all i have to say.. no program touches logic in the midi department. and that's the truth Ruth.

[John The Cut]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Select the velocity tool and raise or lower the velocity, or have a screenset
with a matrix and event editor open, click on the note and lower it from the event list. Its easy, if you actually know the program. I'm sure there is bullshit in Cubase SX that you won't like either, none of these programs are perfect. Historically Cubase has been a really buggy program. Logic on the other hand has been solid. Its a pita to learn but once you do, it works great. It's been a solid reliable tool

Hey, of course its possible but its not exactly intuative is it?

Yes I remember having to use the matrix editor, but that was still hit and miss. I just remember that after a few weeks of dedicated usage I still couldn't quantise accurately.

[Exmun]

Originally Posted by bigbaby987

all i have to say.. no program touches logic in the midi department. and that's the truth Ruth.

I switched from Logic to Samplitude on PC. I am very happy with that choice audiowise, but I'd agree that Logic's MIDI is about as good as you could get... simple, elegant, powerful. I also liked the old Studio Vision by Opcode. Another very simple, but capable program.

I'd really like Apple to release a MIDI only version of Logic... with Rewire capability or whatever is needed to allow it to interface with a dedicated audio program.

[syra]

I remember buying logic 5 years ago only to find out the well known fact that Logic is the most unlogical program out there.

You know the idea that if you can use one sequencer program you can use all of them?...that stays true except for logic! I work in PT now but I had a great run with Cakewalk, Nuendo, Cubase (SX is the best app out there IMO), and even DP...

I remember spending 2 days with logic and still not being able to do basic functions unless I read the manual (by then I already had years experience with Cakewalk and Cubase)

Anyway, I know a lot of composers that use it and I'm sure once you know it, it must be great...the learning curve of that thing though is a suicide mission...

[Roger Starr]

SX (so Nuendo) has a great audio engine which is superior to that of Logic. Tho' it seems that there are so now and then some midi-shifting problems. Also, if cracks like Eliot Scheiner use Nuendo to record live shows like the Crossroads with Clapton and are extremely happy with it, it's actually the same if they would have used 'just' SX3 since it has the exact same audio engine as Nuendo (asuming they didn't record video stuff). In other words if Nuendo is good for producers like Scheiner, Ramone and Filipetti to records more then serious music with Nuendo, Cubase SX should be a great choice and apparantly better then Logic since it's always about Protools and the alternative of Nuendo (and so SX in a certain way). Not Logic. Curious what Apple brings in April at the NAB? So far it looks like SX is indeed the best buy...

Roger

[bigbaby987]

SX (so Nuendo) has a great audio engine which is superior to that of Logic.

i don't personally believe this is true... i have freinds that use neundo, pt and other apps and i believe logic has just as good an engine.

Cubase SX should be a great choice and apparantly better then Logic since it's always about Protools and the alternative of Nuendo (and so SX in a certain way). Not Logic. Curious what Apple brings in April at the NAB? So far it looks like SX is indeed the best buy...

i'm not even going to make this a daw argument, just stating my case.... cubase could be a great choice....it's simple, and pretty powerful. but if you look at about half of cubase's "new" features and enhancements and nuendo's also, they came from logic. heck, cubase just got an extremely scaled down version of the environment to make cubase more "compatible" with more midi gear. it keeps going from there also. like screensets, and more. all i'm saying is use what works best for you. cubase/nuendo is "what you see is what you get"... logic is "what you think up, is what you get"

it's that simple

[Robzo]

This thread isn't the place to get defensive about Logic. This is a place for people who are frustrated with Logic and want to swap war stories, or just talk about how lame some aspects of the the program are. That's all. Let us avoid turning this thread into yet another DAW pissing match. That would be tiresome and disrupt the purity of what we're doing here. No need to get up in everyone's grill and try to be the mack. We all know Logic has uses for people. Defending it's sorry ass is not the point here.

We don't need another hero.

[shangoe]

yes logic is hard to understand in the beginning. but when midi is important i dont know anything better.

im on 5.5 and will stay there untill something fundamental changed (ADC) i will never support this useless ****in feature upgrades that alot of companies try to sell (applemagic, native instruments....)

[Robzo]

Originally Posted by shangoe

im on 5.5 and will stay there untill something fundamental changed

Smart man! There's an old adage that goes completely against the modern "update" style of thinking. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Wise, wise words. Had I done that I'd be getting a lot more work done instead of PAYING manufacturing companies to de-bug their software. Those clever little devils! They've duped the public into being their beta testers!

The problem is that I bite when newer versions come out that are supposed to "fix the mistakes of the last version." But then I find that I'm in just another world of hurt. The map is just different. I know a fella who stopped all updates upon reaching a point with Pro-Tools 5 on OS9 (I think...don't quote me on that). He hasn't updated a single thing on his system, and it's been very solid for him since then. HE gets a lot of work done.

[Yutaka]

It always makes me wonder why people insist on one app to do audio + midi?

It's quite apparent that there's been almost no improvement on MIDI side of Logic since 5.5. Instead of investing on a new version of Logic which has had marginal improvements on audio side (though the additional plug-ins have been nice), isn't it better to buy a new machine dedicated to apps such as PT, or Nuendo and MTC sync the old machine with Logic running MIDI? Audio production is WAY simpler in Cubase SX, Nuendo, or PT for sure.

[stag]

I´m a SX3 user . a happy one , i can do things with it i can´t with other apps and the inverse is truth too.
Regarding Logic people have to understand its heart is the mixer where in SX is the track view .
once people figure it out Logic becames Logic untill that happens it seems a cunbersome app which it isn´t.
Regarding SX midi being able to record MIDI to automation tracks quite fills the bill IMO ,also the drum map and the included MIDI FX are extremelly usefull.

I understand your frustration but you chose logic stick with it and try to overcome its alleged faults it will pay off ,i´m sure.

Logic and SX (and others) are really a different way of doing things to achieve the same goal ,we have to adapt ourselves to what we got the other way around seems to me quite trickier.

[robmix]

Logic is one of the worst programs ever invented. I know some guys love it but my partner and I could never get our heads around it. I've used just about every sequencer/DAW out there since the Lexicon Opus (including the Synclavier, Studio Vision, Performer, Paris, Logic , PT, the list is endless) and Logic defies logic. I've been programming computers since I was 12, including writing apps for the NeXT platform when it was still happening. I even got to sit with one of the Logic programmers comparing sequencers and everytime I showed him a time saving feature of another DAW he told me they were doing it wrong. Sorry, I stopped at Logic 5 and won't be going any further. You always hear "nothing can touch Logic's MIDI functions", I don't know what these guys are doing who need all these special features. PT's does everything I need on both the MIDI and audio side and I'm making records everyday.

[Robzo]

Originally Posted by stag

I understand your frustration but you chose logic stick with it and try to overcome its alleged faults it will pay off ,i´m sure..

Please don't try and console me.

If Apple kills this program, then I will feel like I stuck through it and it paid off.

[ttauri]

I think Brian T summed up Logic well from my perspective in a previous thread:

"It is the most complete Toolbox of sequencer/DAW components ever created, but with one catch. You have to use what they give you to "roll-your-own" DAW before you try to get musically creative. It's a really advanced build-it-yourself DAW kit with some of the parts preassembled.

So that means there are two types of Logic users:

1. Happy Logic users who *first* learn the app well, and then set up a good, personalized Song template with proper Screensets, Macros, Links, etc before they try to make music with it.

2. Unhappy Logic users/ex-users who bought the app and tried to immediately use it to make music before doing the above. With Logic, that's a recipe for disaster. If that's what you want to do, use another program.

Logic is a great app, with it's share of the obligatory dumb issues that all apps contain. But more than any other app I've ever seen, it demands that you learn it before you really try to get anything done, instead of learn it as you go."

If I've figured out how to do something in Logic, before it comes up "in the mix of action" it's kool, but if there's something I have to figure out (or just didn't account for: like needing an extra bus more than my autoload) in the middle of writing or mixing, I'm cursing at it like a MF.

(Ultimately cursed enough to give DP4.5 a go, and see how I get on with that....)

Peece,
T. Tauri

[stag]

Originally Posted by Robzo

Please don't try and console me.

If Apple kills this program, then I will feel like I stuck through it and it paid off.

I´m sorry maybe it sounded patronising but the intentions were not.
to me SX has been all garden and rosie but i know off a lot of people who had a rough time with it .
Frankly ,all the probs i had were due to faulty hardware but some people with set ups akin to mine keep complainin , i even know a SX user who was a previous logic user, since MAC take over he´s been on SX ,he misses a whole lot of logic features.
believe me, he don´t mind at all if i say in SX he can do the same the features are there ,just in another place .

perhaps i should shut up: i never tried logic 7 but it baffles me hearing the proggie is pure shit just the same as i feel when someone goes the same way about SX.
The truth is when someone is on that kind of mind frame is like trying to get Claudia Schiffer to realise that i´m the one and only .


Good luck.
peace

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by mogWai

Hey, of course its possible but its not exactly intuative is it?

Yes I remember having to use the matrix editor, but that was still hit and miss. I just remember that after a few weeks of dedicated usage I still couldn't quantise accurately.

It's plenty intuitive, the only reason the matrix editor would be hit or miss would be you didnt know what your doing. If after a few weeks you couldn't quantize
accurately, you must not have been paying attention, or you had a crack. Brian Tankersly stated it pretty well. If you spent the time to learn it and set it up, it's great, if you didnt you'll hate it. Yeah there's a step learning curve. Usually serious tools require spending a little time learning them.

[Circuitt]

"Ultimately cursed enough to give DP4.5 a go, and see how I get on with that.."
get on gettting on, and from what i understand dp is very good with midi as well.
same as logic if not better..

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by Circuitt

"Ultimately cursed enough to give DP4.5 a go, and see how I get on with that.."
get on gettting on, and from what i understand dp is very good with midi as well.
same as logic if not better..

DP is pretty buggy at the present moment--so many bugs that alot of serious users have gone on to other platforms for the time being. MOTU seems to either lack resources to make DP 99% usable or just don't care. I know it's hard for small software companies to survive but MOTU really needs to put beta testing top on its priority list.

I used to be an avid DP user and still upgrade and try out every new upgrade version released but it still isn't dependable enough for me -- and i can't afford to miss any deadlines due to faulty software problems, etc.

So I use PT.... I loathe the MIDI part of it but so far, I don't have any choice.

OK, enough ranting for today

[Circuitt]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

DP is pretty buggy at the present moment--so many bugs that alot of serious users have gone on to other platforms for the time being. MOTU seems to either lack resources to make DP 99% usable or just don't care. I know it's hard for small software companies to survive but MOTU really needs to put beta testing top on its priority list.

To be honest since 4.5 everything is butter
my uad/pcore cards work fantastic, midi works like a dream, plugsins kick ass
I have not one problem with dp, yay pt, yeah but pt's midi sucks and i am a big time midi user so i think dp is the BEST way to go for programmers, but if you are just tracking audio pt is fine, i might even use both, and use dp as a front-end to pt.
"I don't know what you are talking about!"

[Toad]

The only "problem" with Logic, is the people who don't know how to use it!
Logic is what you set it up to be!