Do D/A converters determine how good software sounds?

[PaulC]

My setup consists of a macbook, ableton live, motu ultralite and an fmr rnp.

I am happy enough with the sound i get when i record in to my computer with guitars, vocals and hardware synths but i am desperately unhappy with the sound of my vst/audio unit software that comes out which is mainly the korg legacy collection and toontracks ez drummer. It sounds very muddy and not very clear compared to the likes of my hardware synths. I'm pretty sure these software are known as quality so i am guessing that there are weak links in my recording chain.

I was planning on getting logic studio because i hear that ableton doesnt give great sound quality and the apogee duet which is said to have great converters. I was wondering should this sort out my problem? Is D/A conversion what determines how good software sounds? What exactly carries out the vst conversion in to sound, is it my DAW and the soundcard or just the soundcard? I want to get cd quality. Cheers.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Is D/A conversion what determines how good software sounds?

Yes and NO. Software [for the most part does not have a sound] [FOR THE MOST PART OF THINGS THAT ACTUALLY MATTER] However: All of these programs do sound subtlety different with the same audio and converter path, so I would say YES, the D/A converter is the result of the DAW's audio, so anything you hear is based on the conversion of that D/A, which originates from X DAW.

Its all relative, and a part of the chain.

I would argue that the AD converter is MOST important concept when thinking about what the "sound quality" of a DAW is going to be. BUT REALLY, anyone who cares about the subject will acknowledge that AD and DA are equally important to the art of digital recording.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by PaulC

M
I was planning on getting logic studio because i hear that ableton doesnt give great sound quality and the apogee duet which is said to have great converters. I was wondering should this sort out my problem? Is D/A conversion what determines how good software sounds? What exactly carries out the vst conversion in to sound, is it my DAW and the soundcard or just the soundcard? I want to get cd quality. Cheers.

Getting Logic would be a wise choice yes.

The Apogee Duet does have great sound quality overall, especially its size considered.

While better D/A conversion will help you HEAR what you're doing better, it has 0% impact on the actual sound in the software:
Consider the D/A like a microscope, you can see things better through a microscope but what you're looking at hasn't actually changed underneath. It will help you make better decisions, and this leads to better sound in the end.

So i.e. changing your sound card or converter won't change an exported or bounced file.

"CD" quality comes from choosing the right sounds, doing a proper arrangement, good mixing and good mastering. This requires practice, skill and a good working environment (acoustics & gear). Simply changing your converter won't have a very big impact, although it's one step closer.

[msl]

get Logic, imo Live's mix engine tends to smear things when you have more than 8-10 tracks. Maybe this is what your hearing. I doubt the week point is the Ultralite, though the Duet would be better. I never mix in Live, though its a great program for other things. just my two cents.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Do D/A converters determine how good software sounds?

D/A is as important as A/D. I mean how do know what you've recorded really sounds like without acurate D/A? It's that simple.

Peope talk in circles about room treatment then they use an MAudio or rme d/a. What's the point? None. Youll never get an accurate representation of the sounds . But hey you may not need to or may not care. As someone who was in denial for years about good a/d d/a I can tell you A/D D/A is as or more important that any other device in the chain.
An highend mic or preamp is absolutely useless with a cheapo converter. It's pointless.

[Dean Roddey]

If you have to choose between a well treated room and an RME card vs. an Appogee or something like that, there's zero choice to be made. The room is IMMENSELY more important than the difference between those two converters. People give way too much importance to converters relative to much more important things. In terms of influence of what the end listener hears, they would come after instruments, mics, pre-amps and other outboard gear, the room, the performers and the content.

They are more important than the DAW generally, since most DAWs are quite competent to manipulate the data you put into them, so that's mostly a work flow and features issue. But everything other single thing in the chain will have more influence on the resulting music (unless you are using super-clean and transparent outboard gear anyway, which most of us probably are very much not doing.)

And of course in terms of mixing, the room is orders of magnitude more important than D/A. The difference in a good and great D/A might be in the 10 or 20% improvement range, while the difference between a badly treated and well treated room can be the difference between 2dB and 40dB swings in perceived volume based on frequency.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

If you have to choose between a well treated room and an RME card vs. an Appogee or something like that, there's zero choice to be made. The room is IMMENSELY more important than the difference between those two converters. People give way too much importance to converters relative to much more important things. In terms of influence of what the end listener hears, they would come after instruments, mics, pre-amps and other outboard gear, the room, the performers and the content.

They are more important than the DAW generally, since most DAWs are quite competent to manipulate the data you put into them, so that's mostly a work flow and features issue. But everything other single thing in the chain will have more influence on the resulting music (unless you are using super-clean and transparent outboard gear anyway, which most of us probably are very much not doing.)

And of course in terms of mixing, the room is orders of magnitude more important than D/A. The difference in a good and great D/A might be in the 10 or 20% improvement range, while the difference between a badly treated and well treated room can be the difference between 2dB and 40dB swings in perceived volume based on frequency.

Totally agree. Room WAY more than converters. Great mic pre's and all tha jazz are a waste in a crap room. BUT a good room won't be wrecked by poor pre's and conversion. It's just that GOOD AD's (and DA) will be even better.

Thing is - once you have a good listening room, you'll want good AD DA.

[Dean Roddey]

Yeh, sure. As you check off the more important stuff, don't stop. Keep going until you have the gold plated wheels on the studio chair and the Manley Reference Lava Lamp :-) It's all good. Just take care of the most important stuff first.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

If you have to choose between a well treated room and an RME card vs. an Appogee or something like that, there's zero choice to be made. The room is IMMENSELY more important than the difference between those two converters. People give way too much importance to converters relative to much more important things. In terms of influence of what the end listener hears, they would come after instruments, mics, pre-amps and other outboard gear, the room, the performers and the content.

They are more important than the DAW generally, since most DAWs are quite competent to manipulate the data you put into them, so that's mostly a work flow and features issue. But everything other single thing in the chain will have more influence on the resulting music (unless you are using super-clean and transparent outboard gear anyway, which most of us probably are very much not doing.)

And of course in terms of mixing, the room is orders of magnitude more important than D/A. The difference in a good and great D/A might be in the 10 or 20% improvement range, while the difference between a badly treated and well treated room can be the difference between 2dB and 40dB swings in perceived volume based on frequency.

First off I never said one OVER the other. Second I would not use RME and Apogee in the same sentence unless you are talking about an Apogee converter from the 80's or something. That might be as bad as an rme. My point is as follows........

A great room with a great console and great mics and a great engineer is pointless without a great converter. Capiche? That's what i said or atleast tryed to.

So you have a crappy converter but your room is top notch. To bad you'll never be able to enjoy hearing the benefits of that great room through your $500 d/a. It's like playing a 59 paul through a pignose or playing $5000 DW in a room made of cinder block. What's the point? there really is none.
comprende ?

So to make the point, a great A/D D/A is AS important as any other elelement including the room.
okedokee?

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by narcoman

BUT a good room won't be wrecked by poor pre's and conversion.

Wrecked? It's the opposite of giving Joseph Merrick a makover??

[Dean Roddey]

So to make the point, a great A/D D/A is AS important as any other elelement including the room. okedokee?

Only if you have enough budget to take care of them all. If you don't, then the converters should be down below those other things, because they will matter less. An RME isn't going to stop you from making great music that any normal person out there will not blink at the sound quality of, though it might not have that last 10% of optimum sound. Having bad instruments, bad mics, bad analog gear, a bad room, bad content, and bad performances can definitely create a result that anyone can hear sounds really bad.

[MonoBrow]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Only if you have enough budget to take care of them all. If you don't, then the converters should be down below those other things, because they will matter less. An RME isn't going to stop you from making great music that any normal person out there will not blink at the sound quality of, though it might not have that last 10% of optimum sound. Having bad instruments, bad mics, bad analog gear, a bad room, bad content, and bad performances can definitely create a result that anyone can hear sounds really bad.

Save yourself the hazzle and do not discuss anything converter related(especially rme) with allen..it is Super Pointless.Trust me.Its like mentioning telecasters.

[Bob Olhsson]

The D to A has an immense influence because you choose all of your miking, gear, eq and compression settings according to what it sounds like. I made the "invest in the A to D" mistake myself and learned the hard way.

[Dean Roddey]

It's not "immense". I really get stressed out when people over adjectify so much around here. It's going to be noticeable, but to say it's immense is a gross overstatement. A guitar that won't stay in tune is a big problem. A room that has 20dB peaks and nulls is a big problem. A crappy mic is a big problem.

If you don't have those things taken care of, then you are in way worse trouble than if you are using a $600 A/D and D/A converter. That RME card has more fidelity than was available to the bulk of audio engineers for the bulk of history. You can clearly make good music with it. The RME card isn't going to have gross frequency discrepencies that are going to cause you to badly EQ your mix, as a badly treated room would.

So yeh, once you get those other issues straightened out, then upgrade the converters. But until then, obsessing about converters when you are in an untreated room or have a $100 microphone is pretty silly. You should upgrade first what is going to make the biggest difference.

[Bob Olhsson]

Dean, the problem with D to As is that they can mask problems that need fixing and they frequently lead people to using way too much signal processing as they attempt to fix things that aren't really broken. I said and meant immense because the choices we make based on listening have a greater effect on our results than any piece of gear. Yes, cheap converters have better analog specs than older gear but there's a whole can of very unintuitive digital worms that frequently bite even the most experienced of us.

Anything that fogs our vision is a big problem.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

It's not "immense". I really get stressed out when people over adjectify so much around here. It's going to be noticeable, but to say it's immense is a gross overstatement. A guitar that won't stay in tune is a big problem. A room that has 20dB peaks and nulls is a big problem. A crappy mic is a big problem.

You forgot:

Passing good audio through crap conversion, is a problem

Storage of your performance is just as important as you performing it...that is.....if you actually care about it.

[Dean Roddey]

But that's the point. An RME or Lynx card is not crap conversion. As I pointed out, it has more fidelity than the vast bulk of the great albums of the past. I mean the thing is, how can you call something immense, if you can play the two versions to 99% of the people on the planet and ask them what the difference is and they'd not have the slighest clue? There is a large difference between 'less than the best that money can buy' and 'crap'.

Yes, if you have the bucks, get the best of everything. Why not, you have the bucks. If you don't, you have to spend what you have on what makes the most difference first. Clearly anyone on the planet can hear a bass line that suddenly gets 10dB louder and then 15 dB softer, or a guitar with badly buzzing strings or non-buzzing strings, or a mic that has screetchy high end vs. smooth high end. Hardly anyone on the planet is going to notice the difference between an RME or Lynx card and a Lavry, because it's not part of the actual musical content.

I have a little trouble figuring out why anyone would question that.

[theblue1]

A middle quality converter versus a very good converter makes much less difference [arbitrary competitive-analogy-wise ] than middle quality monitors and monitoring environment versus very good monitors and environment.

For those who have no budget constraints, the best of everything is the only reasonable answer.

For the rest of us, it's a triage situation. We're always balancing where to put our money and effort.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The D to A has an immense influence because you choose all of your miking, gear, eq and compression settings according to what it sounds like. I made the "invest in the A to D" mistake myself and learned the hard way.

thumbsup

really is that simple.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by theblue1

A middle quality converter versus a very good converter makes much less difference [arbitrary competitive-analogy-wise ] than middle quality monitors and monitoring environment versus very good monitors and environment.

For those who have no budget constraints, the best of everything is the only reasonable answer.

For the rest of us, it's a triage situation. We're always balancing where to put our money and effort.

rationalizing is not a solution or a valid argument

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

But that's the point. An RME or Lynx card is not crap conversion. As I pointed out, it has more fidelity than the vast bulk of the great albums of the past. I mean the thing is, how can you call something immense, if you can play the two versions to 99% of the people on the planet and ask them what the difference is and they'd not have the slighest clue? There is a large difference between 'less than the best that money can buy' and 'crap'.

Yes, if you have the bucks, get the best of everything. Why not, you have the bucks. If you don't, you have to spend what you have on what makes the most difference first. Clearly anyone on the planet can hear a bass line that suddenly gets 10dB louder and then 15 dB softer, or a guitar with badly buzzing strings or non-buzzing strings, or a mic that has screetchy high end vs. smooth high end. Hardly anyone on the planet is going to notice the difference between an RME or Lynx card and a Lavry, because it's not part of the actual musical content.

I have a little trouble figuring out why anyone would question that.

I have used RME a/d d/a they really are mediocre at best. Even at high sample rates. Do yourself the favor and rent a 2192 or a lavry for a weekend and go to town. Record a tune or 2. Then listen back a week later and compare it to your rme recordings. You will see the light. Do it you will reret it because youll go out the next day and buy a real converter and be $3000 more in dept.

Sorry fidelity and RME in the same sentence is like saying fidelity and porta studio in the same sentence. Well maybe not that bad. Howabout fidelity & Tascam 38 in the same sentence?? Though I would still use a 38 over a ADI-2 any day of the week

I noticed just how bad an rme was when I played back recording domne with it through a crane song hedd. The rme trax sounded twice as bad. I know what your thinking, did he fire 6 shots or only......

I know what your thinking, must be my poor engineering skills that the rme didn't cut it right? nah

[Dean Roddey]

That's the point, I can't afford one. Hence I dealt with the more important things first. I don't sit around weeping that my A/D is keeping me from making music. I'll get to the converters when the bucks are available.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The D to A has an immense influence because you choose all of your miking, gear, eq and compression settings according to what it sounds like. I made the "invest in the A to D" mistake myself and learned the hard way.

You need both Bob.

You know it.

I know it

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Wrecked? It's the opposite of giving Joseph Merrick a makover??

I said it wouldn't be wrecked. I didn't say it wouldn't be harmed.

Great room with crap equipment will be poorly captured excellence - but you'll still here the balance and tone - even on (yeuch) shitty RME.

Shit room with great equipment - you'll have a great recording of a shit sound.

All those budget recorded records that sound good (yes i know - there aren't many despite what some say) - well, by luck and fluke had nice sounding recording environments inspite of poor equipment.

Then head over to your "in love with the best of the best" nutters that (some of them) grace these pages. THE best mic, THE best pre - searching with THE best guitar. In their bedroom. "how come my guitar sound piss" etc - .... cuz you believe the hype perhaps?

Anyway - that's what i'm saying. You wanna ensure excellent sound? You need it all. You wanna take a gamble? Go with good room over good equipment. Me? I'll stick with the former.....

[Bob Olhsson]

I agree both are far more important than most people seem to realize.

I've found many A to D tonality problems can be mitigated with a touch of eq. but you can't do that without screwing up if the D to A isn't up to it.