software demos

[alphajerk]

since the cracked thread was closed bizarrely for reasons i cant comprehend [discussing kracks isnt illegal last time i checked] and it seemed there were a couple guys in there who seemed interested in the alternatives.

anyway albert summed it up best:
As far as testing software using cracks, isn't it more like test driving a car than stealing a car, if we are going to use analogies. You are not stealing a car if you drive it off the lot and return it, but don't purchase it. How many cars would a company sell if they required you to buy it first, then drive it and see how you like it? If you drive it off the lot and then buy it, that's a legitimate purchase and the test drive was worth it.



i think it should almost be mandatory that companies offer trial versions to potential buyers [im not talking about kracks, but TRIAL versions] with the bad policy of non-return on any open software.

why is it that the audio world is so paranoid about people stealing their software? macromedia offers 30day trials on all their products.... no iloks either, just simple serial installation. their prices are reasonable for what they do. adobe offers trials as well with an activation after trial period expires or when one decides they want to buy it.


and it seems to me that the market share is growing, not shrinking on plugin and application customers. i know more and more people buying into it than ever before, in fact, there are more studios in my town than design studios [which is REALLY odd] but when most plugins are well into the several hundred dollar range, it kinda puts it out of the reach of a lot of studios when they have to buy 20 plugins. adds up quickly.

but what if the plugins were cheaper? more people would buy them. i know there are several plugs i MIGHT buy if they werent so expensive but due to their cost, i just cant justify buying them [or using them]...

now one on the other thread mentioned internation distribution?!? WTF?!? ever hear of the net? cut that middleman out and take the full 100%. software on the net has NO manufacturing costs and once written, its pure profit aside from server overhead [which really is minimal]

any other ideas to bring software to the masses with less risk to both parties?

[remo]

I'm guessing the tread was locked because some people were doing a good job of justifying a purpose for "illegal" software.

[alphajerk]

well this thread isnt about using kracks but finding out why the paranoia exists in the audio community of software and finding out how they can get their act together like other industries in offering trial versions, what kind of trial versions, etc.... and possibly losign the iLok all together.

personally, i think the spurt of noise is bs. id like a 30day full featured trial.

[remo]

totally agree.. a fully functional demo that only runs 30 days would be perfect for software evaluation.

[StefanColson]

Imagine if they didn't let you test drive a car, the only way you could get behind the wheel would be to purchase it. Then they didn't let you return the car if you didn't like it. That's basically the situation now with alot of audio software. I don't want to steal from anybody, I just want to do my homework before I part with hard earned cash.

Valve (the company that released the game Half Life 2) has a good system in place with that game. In order to play it, you must be connected to the internet so that your account can be verified. If there was a trial that only worked if you were connected to the internet and your trial account could be verified, it would be much harder on crackers, and we could test stuff out first.

[remo]

yes IMO its the only real way a company can totally protect themselfes from hackers.. online verification of the serial number... its akin to hardware dependent software but the "hardware" is the companies verification server!

The downside is everyone who wants to use the app needs an internet connection... I know quite a few people who were burned/angered by this when they tryed to play HL2..

[digitaltaper]

I can't stand demos that have noise or dropouts in them. It is hard to judge the final results with an annoying beep or dropout every few seconds. As for time demos ....I understand why some do it. If you know what your doing you could probably clean out your registry for reinstall .... They do have to charge and arm and leg though in order to make a good profit. The HalfLife people have prob sold a few million copies of that game .... A plugin developer isn't going to be selling a million copies of a plugin .... Plus the companies are smart .... Everything related to music production is so expensive .... they probably figured that studios are used to spending so much money, why cut you guys a break. They know they have you by the balls.

[karl]

I think the wider problem is at the other end of the chain. If the albums we made were being bought legally, rather than being downloaded illegally, there would be enough money to pay large amounts for music software. We all know about the Russian sites actually charging for music we made without knowledge of artist or record company.

[sparker]

There can't be any arguement in support of cracks, or any justification for their use.

What we do need to do is get better ways of trying product out, and a general concensus that using illegal software should not be condoned.

Would you visit a dealer to try out a product (software)?

or would you prefer to take a system on loan with that product installed?

And lastly, would you pay for that, if it made such schemes more freely available?

Cheers

S

[manning1]

i think that powertracks that i use from pgmusic.com has a decent approach. no dongles etc. you can buy the software for 49 bucks ,
and get your money back if you dont like it. basically a 30 day trial. or folks can just download it to try , but save is disabled .
same with band in a box.
what i hate are dongles etc. i refuse to buy anything with them in.

[Jules]

Doesnt Ilok assist this this goal?

[sparker]

I think ilok will assist in some cases, but usually just for PT based systems - Steinberg have LCC (licence control centre) for working their devices (for example).

I know the last updates for SX and Nuendo came with a demo version of HALion, and their maybe developments on that front in the near future.

[karl]

iLok is fine, but not all plugs support it. Autotune is awful with challenge response. I felt guilty everytime I authorised for a new drive or computer.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by sparker
What we do need to do is get better ways of trying product out, and a general concensus that using illegal software should not be condoned.

Would you visit a dealer to try out a product (software)?

or would you prefer to take a system on loan with that product installed?

And lastly, would you pay for that, if it made such schemes more freely available?

Cheers

S

no about visiting a dealer... i want it in real life in my studio

no about getting a system, thats FAR more expensive for you than coming up with a trial version.

no, i dont pay for trials.... who knows if its crap or not. i have tried many kracks of software plugins that were just so bad, if they were FREE i wouldnt use them.


im not trying to point out the legitimacy of using kracks, im trying to get audio software developers to figure out a way to offer trial versions like other industries do... and a small petition in regards to pricepoints which IMO are WAY too high for software and are kind of riding the high price of analog gear.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Jules
Doesnt Ilok assist this this goal?

i refuse to buy anything currently with iLok. i protest it as i protest the paranoia filled in this industry of theft.... it seems to be pretty much confined to this industry of all the apps i use in a multitude of areas.

[sparker]

I think 'Industry of theft' is a bit strong..

What has to be realised is that some of these companies may sell incredibly small numbers of certain types of products - if you compare them with say graphics companies, the number of users paying for the software is many times smaller.

I agree that demo's should be more easily available... Its how to do this thats the question.

Cheers

[alphajerk]

well, the paranoia is way stronger than in other industries... as to the difference of users buying, the music market is growing immensely in the software audio market and user base.... and its not studios, although there are a LOT of those popping up now... but musicians themselves getting into the game of using audio software and are potential customers, but the egotism in this industry [often noticed on this and any forum] just between "pro" studios and "home" studios is just ******** at best... never mind filtering in musicians who are trying to become engineers of their own stuff.


its just that the prices are out of control and i dont think some developers have found the right pricepoint vs sales yet. psp has done a pretty good job of it although their trials i think had dropouts.

i also would like to say from above, commercial plugins i have tried that have sucked i wouldnt use for free, there are freeware plugs i have used that i would BUY.

[Alécio Costa]

If waves lowered their prices, let us say Masters Bundle for $300, L3 for $200, restoration Kit for $300, I would probably buy all them.
On the contrary, they ask and somewhat force you to upgrade to soemthing you do not need, which to me is plain ridiculous ( tdm bundle >>Gold bundle, sicne no longer tdm bundle exists)

[pounce]

the word paranoia doesn't work since so much software actually is being stolen. cracked software often doesn't work as well as the actual thing, so it's a bad way to test drive. yes, all software should have some sort of trial demo type thing, but that's a different subject. use of cracks cannot be justified.

[Albert]

I also have a revulsion to iLok, and avoid it as much as possible. I have only one program that requires iLok, and I no longer use it partly due to iLok issues. So that was a waste of $300.

As far as paying for trials, no way. Same goes for dealer demos or loaners. Loaners are a hassle and the machine I'd get would very likely *not* be representative of my own system. Dealer demos are more interesting, but I'm not sure how practical it is for a dealer to have a Mac all set up ready to go, and a staff person manning it all the time. You'd also need someone who really knew what they were doing. It would probably end up like most computers on display, crashed or locked out without the password, or not working for some reason.

Also, the other issue with dealer demos is that many of these plugin developers are very small outfits and sell direct off their web sites. some of the best ones aren't even close to being in a distribution network like a major music store chain.

Tight copy protection schemes may be costing music plugin/software developers more than they are saving by using it. There are a number of programs/plugins I'd love to have, but simply will not deal with the copy protection problems. I'm sure there are other lost sales as well, due to potential buyers being turned off by being treated as thieves first and customers second.

The plugins and software I use *do* have copy protection. But it's the least intrusive kind, basically a serial number or authorization code. No query and response, no internet required, ilok, or any of the other nasty stuff.

This issue is so important to me that I always ask the plugin developer in advance of purchasing what kind of copy protection they use, if it is not clear from their site. If I approve of their copy protection methods, I will buy the software, and if not, it's a lost sale for them as far as I am concerned.

Plugin developers whose policies I consider fair for the user are: PSP Audioware, Sonalksis, and Elemental Audio. Great plugins, too!

The thing that gets me is that all this money is being spent by developers on copy protection and I question if it is doing them much good. Maybe it is, but when I see that basically anything and everything is available bootleg, it makes me wonder why anybody is bothering with copy protection. Perhaps just hardening the target a bit.

Ultimately, what is unfortunate is that any of this is even necessary.

[chrisso]

Originally posted by karl
Autotune is awful with challenge response. I felt guilty everytime I authorised for a new drive or computer.

I agree. I'm planning to move a couple of soft synths from my main computer, on to a laptop and then on to a new main computer in a few months time. I'm dreading it.
I remember reading that Spectrasonics supported multiple authorisations, but I'm not sure how many. Also, I've been accused of not being a registered user by at least one leading music software provider.
It didn't matter that they had lost records of many of their registered users (which they admitted later). It was a case of guilty before proved innocent.
However.....
It may be different in The States, but I've yet to find anyone who is using a crack piece of software as a demo, with a view to buying the full product.
I know lots of people using illegal copies of all the top softsynths and audio plug-ins. Most of them are intelligent, ambitious people, making decent money through their music. Their attitude is, why would they pay for something when they already have it and it works perfectly.
The only time any of my contacts seriously contemplated buying legal copies, was when the Mac OS went from OS9 to OSX and all their cracked copies became useless.

[lordnielson]

I can see a flamefest coming. But, I don't see how you compare cracked software with hardware and general consumer goods.
If I go and steal something from a local cornershop shelf the owner will have one less item to sell. He will lose profit and the money it took to stock it.
If on the other hand I download a cracked program I haven't physically removed a product which then can't be sold.
You can argue that the software company has lost a potential buyer because a warezed version of their soft was available but that's speculation only. A lot of warez abusers probably wouldn't use the goods if they had to pay for them.

Granted, the above isn't gospel and opinions are free.

[sparker]

that's no justification, and not what (I think) this thread is trying to achieve.

The question about whether its OK to use cracks isn't up for discussion - its about how to try out product legally.

I don't think copy protection will go away - it does need to be made better, and a customer should never be made to feel like a thief...

[pounce]

Originally posted by lordnielson

You can argue that the software company has lost a potential buyer because a warezed version of their soft was available but that's speculation only. A lot of warez abusers probably wouldn't use the goods if they had to pay for them.

Granted, the above isn't gospel and opinions are free.

well, this only means it's impossible to determine the real financial affect this is having. it's still obvious that the use of cracks is stealing, and is a bad move. and yet i'm still surprised so few companies have proper demo versions to let folks try out their stuff.

[max cooper]

That's exactly the attitude that makes people think it's ok to download/bootleg music and films. Intellectual property is often not a physical object, but instead lines of code, grooves on a record, words in a book, etc. It still takes time and money (and time = money anyway) to develop. I'm surprised to see this attitude here at GS, since most of us depend on an industry which manufactures intellectual property in order to put food on the table and shoes on our feet.

The thing is, the second download of software a company sells isn't "pure profit". They have expenses just like any company. The development cost of a plugin may be greater than the development cost of a piece of outboard.

With the recent demise of Quantegy, it looking like digital recording is here for a while at least, and methinks we should want to have all the plugin options possible, therefore we should want these companies to stick around as long as possible.

Imagine you have to come up with the code to make an RTAS compressor. Now imagine it has to be pretty good...could you do it? I'll bet more people who visit this forum could build a hardware compressor than could write a plugin compressor.

I never thought of iLok as 'evil', in fact I thought it was cool that all of a sudden I could demo all the McDSP, URS and Sony stuff for two weeks. I like it a whole lot better than the "challenge response" thing. I used to do a clean install on my DAW computer every four months or so, but with the "challenge/response" software, it's a HUGE PITA. The iLok makes stuff like that easy, and BTW, I think iLok is the best way for authorization to continue after the company goes down. All my iLok licences say: expiration date: never.

[mersisblue]

Originally posted by pounce
the word paranoia doesn't work since so much software actually is being stolen. cracked software often doesn't work as well as the actual thing, so it's a bad way to test drive. yes, all software should have some sort of trial demo type thing, but that's a different subject. use of cracks cannot be justified.

there was a thread on the DUC about how a lot of top engineers prefer the cracks since It works better ?

also there was a thread about the ilok , and how YOU pay for their protection . I totally agree with the later and think It is wrong in principle .

I think UA amd powercore are headed in the right direction and I would like to see Digi put a lil HD in their sound cards to make the "ilok" a mobile TEMPORARY auth holder and the HD would be the main holder. but personally Id like to see the ilok removed and have the option to us a usb 256 HD ( which I have many of and Im sure some of you do too ) and for the record I dont think using cracks for testing out is ok

because you are supporting the kracks

but I also dont agree that I had to buy LE versions of cubase and logic to test them out and I couldnt return them ( even thoutgh they are dongle based ? )

as for plugin demos Ive tried my share of waves , autotune , blue tubes etc.... ( probably more )

and they all worked fine even the noise / drop out ones didnt bother me .....so the testing of apps is where my concern is ( granted I dont that much invested in plugins ....only about 1400 )

[lordnielson]

I wasn't trying to justify nor be politically correct. I think none of that will acheive anything real in the context. I was trying to put things into a valid perspective.
If you're a BMW dealer in Essex then your business is within all fairness limited to that area.
If you sell software you have the advantage of instant global sales, anyone from Singapore to Conneticut can buy and be in possesion of your product within minutes. If your business opportunities were on par with the car dealer and you only sold software from a shelf in a shop then the warez issue would probably be on par with car theft ie. less predominant. Most advantages have pitfalls, and I don't believe that binary protections will ever achieve what they set out to do.

But Max there's no attitude for you to get all Texas rangers about. I didn't come here to polish my halo in front of everybody, do I really have to say that cracks are wrong to make some leaway here. I find it productive to approach a problem from more than one angle. We can of course close our eyes and start throwing mud at each other.Guess that would terminate the constructive side of this thread though.

[mersisblue]

also I just downloaded Ik medias free sample tank and synth 2

and I already used some sounds in a song

I dont know how much this affects piracy but I must say its great to see things like this out there

[thomashenry]

Originally posted by sparker
that's no justification, and not what (I think) this thread is trying to achieve.

The question about whether its OK to use cracks isn't up for discussion - its about how to try out product legally.

I don't think copy protection will go away - it does need to be made better, and a customer should never be made to feel like a thief...

Copy protection is a *total* waste of time and money. No copy protection is uncrackable, and it all gets cracked, sooner rather than later. Its a total waste of resources. Honest people who are prepared to pay for a product will do so, and shouldn't be inconvenienced.

My copy of Dynamo used to make me put the CD in the drive every week or so as part of the copy protection - as a result I use the cracked version in preference to my genuine one!

A separate issue is that of software licences. The spectrasonics ones in particular read as something of a joke. You read the license agreement after having forked out £200 for some CDs, and you wonder what you *are* allowed to do with the software. I'm not allowed ro sell this product on? errrr ok...

Finally - prices. When I was a teenager/student, could I afford £500 for Cubase? Of course not. Like every other teenager or student using Cubase, I used a cracked copy. I was not depriving anyone of a sale, as there was simply no way I'd have ever been able to buy it.

When I got a job, cubase was the first thing I spent money on. The availabilty of the cracked version was the key in getting me hooked into cubase, so that when I came to buy a sequencer, there was no choice. The cracked version resulted in a sale, which could otherwise have gone to Cakewalk or Emagic!

I'm legit now, and happy about it, but I've not always been, and I don't feel bad about it.

[chrisso]

lordnielsen,
I do feel quite strongly anti your comments, but I'll try to avoid the flamefest as you put it.
My only question is.....
The crack users love the product (plug-ins), but do they expect skilled people to spend months or years producing these products for no reward at all?
How do they expect the software industry to continue?
Please come and engineer my album by the way, or play on it if you are a musician.
oh yeah, I don't want to pay you.
Music is art, music should be free.

dfegad