2 Years and Still No Luck with Reverb Plug

[refugee1]

Hello,

New here at Gearslutz. Been recording since the early 90's. I love not fighting tape anymore but I still can't find that reverb plug that gives me the chills that even an old Korg A1 used to.

I realize that this topic has been beat to death but I am just frustrated. I have used all of the UAD-1 and Waves verbs (including TDM), and have recently delved into SIR and Pristine Space. At AES I tried Oxford and Powercore. While they do have some great points, namely spaces to put a snare or voiceover in, I have not found one preset, setting or impulse that gives me that lush long vocal that I'm looking for. They all sound metalic and cheap (some more than others). I have eq'd and tweeked the crap out of them, and the only one that comes even close has been Reverb One TDM from Digi.

On the Nuendo forum some time back I saw a post that stated "I took one listen to Deamverb and sold my 480L". So, I got Dreamverb. I took one week listening to it and said WHAT?!!!(however I do like the compressors).

The reason that I am so frustrated is that I see a lot of posts hailing these plugs as great sounding. And, at times from folks that have had experience with good outboard gear. I listen to the plugs and I still just don't get it.

I will concede that there are a lot of verb plugs out there that I have not tried. So, if you will, please educate me here. Those of you who have some good experience with this, do I need to reinvest in at least one good outboard unit to polish off my mixes or are there some alternatives/ideas that some of you might have?

[Darth Fader]

Hallo idahobri, welcome to gearslutz.com

Maybe you'll get the perfect answer by Verbs R Us, but let me just add my conspiracy theory:

With todays DSPs it'd be no problem to have a 480L or 960L reverb algorithm run on a UAD-1 or a TC Powercore (though they'd have to rewrite the code for the custom/Motorola DSP).

But if TC sells you a Powercore claiming there's "great reverbs from the M2000/M5000" included, you'd get throw-me-up-algo nr. 115 (the one you'd never use in a standalone verb, the one that makes you think why an M5000 CAN also sound like crap) - the good algorithms will never (at least not in the near future) leave the hardware units for marketing reasons. Like TC would never sell a single M4000 again if they had included the VSS-3 / VSS-4 reverbs in their powercore package, why should someone buy a $10'000 Lexicon if he could have a software replica for $1'000 running twice on a Powercore or PT Mix-Farm?

So you'd still have to go with a quality hardware unit due to the quality of the algorithms.

A vintage PCM-70 with minimum DSP power sounds far better than 80% of all available software reverbs. Put a 480L on top of that and make your choice.


But I still think UA made quite a big step with the EMT 140 plate for the UAD-1. That's a reverb I really like to use besides my hardware units, it has a special color and you won't find a hardware DSP role model for it that "sounds 10 times as good" (except maybe for the real plate, but that's a different story).

[rr1073]

idahobri:
I too have been searching for a reverb plug-in that I can really use. At this point I have settled on Altiverb. While not perfect, it's pretty darn good. I also am using Reverb One, but tend to lean towards Altiverb for the most part. There are lots of IR's available for it, and with some tweaking it really does work. We are a commercial studio doing everything from Voice Overs to bands...ProTools HD3Accell - TDM.
I also want to try the new Sony Oxford reverb...

[Dutchmuzik]

Have you tried Digidesign Revibe, Eventide Reverb or Princeton Digital 2016 TDM. They are all very good imo.

[jlotto]

digi revibe, emt plate on uad-1, powercore classicverb, waves ir1

[Albert]

I don't understand, why do you feel the need to use reverb plugs when hardware was doing it for you? If the Korg A1 (a great processor) was giving you chills, why change?

There are plenty of hardware reverbs available now that are excellent. And if you are willing to buy used you can get a great sounding reverb for little money.

Just because everybody else is using plugins doesn't mean you have to, or that plugins are better.

I haven't heard a reverb plugin that sounds right to me. As a matter of fact, most plugins I've tried have a weird sound to them, something not quite right. Not all, but most. So, I'm still using outboard and it's still working great for me.

[refugee1]

Thanks for the replies.

Darth Vader, I think you may be more right than some of us would like to believe.

rr1073, I was disappointed in the Oxford stuff as well. However, I was out in the middle of the AES Convention floor when I heard them so that probably affected it a quit a bit. That and the goofy French guy putting on the presentation (nothing personal). I am going to take a listen to Altiverb in the next day or two.

Haven't tried the plugs that you other guys mentioned. I have been allotted a budget of $4800 for next year to buy TDM pluggins so I will look into all of these.

Albert said, " I don't understand, why do you feel the need to use reverb plugs when hardware was doing it for you? If the Korg A1 (a great processor) was giving you chills, why change?"

Totally legitimate question. In 1998 I sold all my equipment, left the industry and didn't return until 2001. In 2002, I decided to build my own studio again, and have admittedly tried to stay in the box. I can see this is not going to work.

[Paul Turpin]

I think its vaguely kind of like analog vs digital - if you try to get the same sound the same way - you won't. You need to use a new approach and you'll get a new result - with some work maybe a better one.

That being said - altiverb was the verb for me - but I had to approach it differently and I felt rewarded - eventually.

I think we are too used to finding the perfect preset and not having to work at it much. I'm not saying this is your problem, but a general one.

I have a friend that believes the hardware sounds better because the extra DA - AD - DA - AD process puts some "signature" to the effect that actually helps it stand out.

p..s. I believe its Darth FADER - not Vader ! punny

oh - and I'm intrigued by UA EMT140 too. I almost got a real EMT in a studio sale this spring.

[Albert]

If your budget is $4,800 I would suggest you get a hardware reverb or two and the rest plugin, if you really need plugins. Or spend the whole lot on hardware. For $4,800 you can get some killer hardware boxes.

In any case, with that budget you can mix and match hardware and plugins, with the emphasis on whichever you prefer.

My own preference is to go heavy on the hardware and light on the plugins, but that is contrary to what most folks seem to be doing these days.

[morpheus]

Revibe and TL Space are two of the best TDM reverb plugins out there right now in my opinion. They are a generation ahead of all the other native and TDM plugins. Prior to those I was using Waves reverbs and Altiverb but I've switched over completely. I haven't tried the Oxford yet.

Some outboard reverb hardware is cool but I find it too time consuming to integrate into a session these days for little or no benefit in reverb quality. Unless of course you have an assistant to record all the patches and parameters for you and set it up.

[lamp]

I use to use Realverb which I think is now Dreamverb and it was okay if you tweak it. Now I use a Rummor unit most of the time and it sounds fine. Verbs are too much of a cpu hit on my native PTLE system.

[DaveC]

I read that a lot of people rely on Altiverb.
Although Altiverb has extremely limited features,
only a hi-and low shelf filter. (Doe maar normaal, dan doe je
al gek genoeg) Typically Dutch...
But Altiverb together with MHL channelstrip is a nice chain though.
The only thing with Altiverb that bugs me is the LATENCY!
Not a problem while using a hardware-verb. right?
So if you got the cash, spend it on a hardware-processor...
You can get a nice 480L for 4800 dollars, or not?
I'd spend it on hardware if I was U.

[thermos]

I believe you will only get latency in Logic W/ Altiverb.
That plug is ok, but I swear even a Pcm-90 knocks the pants off of it. Altiverb just never sounded like it was part of the source sound before, it always sounds disjointed or something.

[Albert]

I agree thermos. There was a certain "wow" factor when I first tried Altiverb, but that quickly wore off as I realized somethng just didn't sound right to me. It's in the first reflections I believe, as the tails are nice. There's a moment where it just sounds wrong. The lack of editing is a problem as well.

That said, I think reverbs like Altiverb can be good for sound design and post production. I know it gets used a lot in post, as those mixers need quick and easy solutions to putting things in a space. FOr that, altiverb works fine.

[refugee1]

"p..s. I believe its Darth FADER - not Vader ! punny"

Yea, I missed that. Darth Fader. That's funny.

"Altiverb just never sounded like it was part of the source sound before, it always sounds disjointed or something."

That's it!! That is a perfect way of explaining my expereince with reverb plugins.

I feel that I need to clarify better at this point. At my day job I use PT HD and have a 300L which should be passable for the near future. Still not sure where I am going to put the $4800.00 but it is earmarked for software plug-ins so my hands are tied there. You'd have to work with our administrators to understand that one. I may be able to find a budget somewhere to pick up another good hardware unit.

It is my personal studio on a PC & Nuendo that I am most concerned with. Although I have seen some good ideas on other plug-in options, I do want to get at least one decent outboard unit to polish of the mix the way I used to. I am thinking about finding another Korg A1 out there somewhere. Any other ideas? I'm looking for that final deep rich sheen. I will do more searching on Gearslutz as well.

I am just now going to check out Altiverb as a plug alternative. I will post my impressions when I get back.

[refugee1]

Just got done listening to Altiverb. I liked it. However, I can't say much more than that. I still sense that seperation from source rather than becoming one with the source. I was also able to listen to the Powercore Megareverb and while it sounded good, I got no chills.

[JeffSanders]

SpinAudio's Roomverb M2 is the best native verb I've tried. Although I still prefer SIR with real spaces or Lexicon impulses.

[Roland]

Back in the good ol' analogue days you got a choice of two, maybe three reverbs if you were lucky (couple of plates and a chamber) not much scope for variation there. Possibly the problem these days is that we have too much choice. There are plenty of good itb reverbs if you are prepared to play with them and look around. The TC stuff (and I don't mean the powercore versions) always sounded like pants too me, but I've done good work with waves stuff when I have had my hands on it, have to be prepared to learn the parameters and how they work. I've owned PCM 70's 90's TC M5000 etc, etc and used most of the hardware stuff out there. All have their uses, but never found one of them I couldn't live without. Really good plate (I'm talking EMT140 if you get a good one) now they do have a sound thats difficult to replicate, it is almost their lack of resolution that makes them great. Often when I see people putting reverbs together for mixes they tend not to really consider the context. More often than not some digital reverbs are too "complex/dense" and just end up cluttering the mix. A great engineer could get a good reverb sound out of many of the plugin's available.

Regards to all



Roland

[refugee1]

Originally posted by Roland

A great engineer could get a good reverb sound out of many of the plugin's available.

I agree. I do get good reverb sound out of the reverb plug-ins that I use. Very good. But no one can get a GREAT reverb out of a good plug-in. I am looking for great reverb, and truly believe that I have not heard it from anything but hardware. I hope to and am willing to be proven wrong by my own ears at the first possible moment. I understand where you are coming from, I really do, but even a great engineer can't polish a turd.

[maks]

hmm.. since youve been quite unlucky in your search, then may i suggest a little "gem" that maybe will quench your thirst...its called "spacemaster" and it comes with Reaktor4 from NI. Although it doesnt simulate actual space, it has the most creamiest reverb i have yet heard, and ive heard alot..

[refugee1]

Originally posted by maks
hmm.. since youve been quite unlucky in your search, then may i suggest a little "gem" that maybe will quench your thirst...its called "spacemaster" and it comes with Reaktor4 from NI. Although it doesnt simulate actual space, it has the most creamiest reverb i have yet heard, and ive heard alot..

Now thats what I like to hear.

I just tried out the EMT-140 plate for the UAD-1 at another studio. I must say that I liked it A LOT. The only metalic sound I got was out of the first of the three plates, and it was more pleasant than what I have experienced. Uses up a third of the cards resources with one instance, though. That may explain why it sounds as good as it does.