PT HD vs Logic w/ symphony for outboard effects tracking/mixing?

[PlatinumCity]

I'm considering either Logic 8 with symphony or Logic 8 w/ PT HD... however, I use countless external FX and I wish to be able to incorporate them for tracking and mixing... i would like to know how these two approaches stack up..

1) Will PT HD inside Logic allow me to insert an outboard box (to monitor through) as a plugin while tracking with no latency, even if there are plugins on other audio tracks?

2) Will Logic 8 and Symphony allow the above also, or does it only work while mixing? Would I need to resort to using an external mixer for tracking my outboard in real time without latency?

3) Can I track/record through Logic w/ very low latency while running latency inducing plugs like UAD, Duende, as an insert on the recording track (or other pre-recorded tracks), or will there be a large delay caused by the PDC making this setup unusable?

Will the two mixers sync up properly when using PT and Logic? I.e, can I be running TDM and AU tracks and plugs (UAD, etc) together without latency or sync problems?

Also, is it possible to run outboard FX through the PT mixer inside Logic and have it run in sync with Logic's core audio mixer and AU plugs? For example, Could I have a UAD plugin on a few tracks, a guitar rig, etc..on the logic mixer together with a DAE/TDM mixer audio track being either tracked or played back through and external FX. Would these two streams be synced up or not?

Sorry, I'm not too familiar with how Logic and PT HD interact.

Thanks
Platinum

[Doc Mixwell]

2) Will Logic 8 and Symphony allow the above also, or does it only work while mixing? Would I need to resort to using an external mixer for tracking my outboard in real time without latency?

The Symphony system is fast as hell with regard to Hardware inserts and converter throughput latency, so when using external hardware [DAC to gear, ADC to track; before any automation] there is never any phase shift distortion or misaligned tracks so far as I can tell.

I would highly recommend using hardware inserts for compression before automation, or like application [effects, etc...] and then mixing the physical outputs to a console or a summing buss, so you can use your analog equipment before it, which i-m-op, will yield more musical results.

3) Can I track/record through Logic w/ very low latency while running latency inducing plugs like UAD, Duende, as an insert on the recording track (or other pre-recorded tracks), or will there be a large delay caused by the PDC making this setup unusable?

With Logic, there is some PDC, but because Symphony is-what-it-is, you won't have ANY problems on a big bad monster of an 8-core. It's extremely powerful and I think once the buffer size and the computer is optimized to the sample rate you're using, the work flow of the system is tremendous.

You can track with plug ins but I would lighten the load of ANY system when tracking #1 and #2, be aware that I would be hearing something other than what the source sounds like. Confidence is King, but I would be real cautious of what you are recording when there's plug ins on the track.

Will the two mixers sync up properly when using PT and Logic? I.e, can I be running TDM and AU tracks and plugs (UAD, etc) together without latency or sync problems?

Also, is it possible to run outboard FX through the PT mixer inside Logic and have it run in sync with Logic's core audio mixer and AU plugs? For example, Could I have a UAD plugin on a few tracks, a guitar rig, etc..on the logic mixer together with a DAE/TDM mixer audio track being either tracked or played back through and external FX. Would these two streams be synced up or not?

"Sargent......there's a mine field ahead!!!!!"

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[PlatinumCity]

Thanks...however, I don't see how its possible to do the following with low latency:

Route an audio input into Symphony and Logic - Add a reverb or compressor, etc in Logic as an I/O on the same track. Record audio input while monitoring through Logic and the hardware box. That must induce a large delay, no? A/D --> audio into logic. D/A -- Same audio out of Logic into FX Box. A/D back to logic for live monitoring. Is this really possible? What kind of latency could you expect?

And can PT/HD really do this any better?

Regarding the PT and Logic, I'd appreciate it if someone helped me with that question.

[ianmiller]

Yes you will get latency if you add heavy effects to a channel in Logic as it is all done natively. You have to use Logic monitoring to actually hear the effects which of course means that you also get latency. Symphony is very fast but is cannot overcome this issue - I monitor and track using Maestro which gives no discernible latency but also means I cannot hear effects while tracking as I turned off Logic monitoring.

Logic also has tricks to minimize latency but they also involve bypassing effects while tracking.

If you use TDM the latency is really not there in a meaningful sense and that of course is why TDM has been the high end leader for so long. If you use Logic with a TDM system it is mix and match in the sense that TDM tracks will have no real latency and Logic native tracks and effects will. They line up with PDC (at least I think they do) but again, not while tracking. So in this case use TDM effects while tracking and then smear on Logic effects to your hearts content while mixing.

I hope that gets closer to the answer you are looking for.

[Doc Mixwell]

It would seem to me.......that you would just as easily patch the outboard before the recorder.......no? There should be little reason add more conversion stages into the equation.

The only reason to use a hardware inserts in most cases is to get the equipment before any automation stages.

[PlatinumCity]

I understand that even with Symphony, you can't track with PDC on full without having a large delay (due to logic delaying tracks), which means that some plugs (i.e, UAD, etc) can't be used for tracking. I also realize that you can't insert outboard FX into a track and expect to be able to track in real time with low latency though the box and monitor in logic due to the 3 conversions. However, in PT there would also be 3 conversions, so I doubt that it would fare much better in this regard, no? I assume most people just plug in the outboard before entering the DAW, on the way out to a console, or used as an insert when mixing on the DAW, corrct?

Symphony is supposed to have 1.5 ms roundtrip or somthing at 96khz. Surely this must compete with PT? The quoted figures are for a session with plenty of heavy effects monitoring through Logic. Yet you say you get latency when tracking through logic and prefer to use maestro.. Are you saying that these figurs are not true? Are you saying that this is a false claim?

I assume that the advantage of PT over symphony is that TDM effects won't delay like some native or DSP effects like UAD, etc, and allow you to track in realtime with very low latency...this would be the main advantage over the symphony system I assume? B/C the quoted figures from Apogee show that the Symphony can do 32 or so tracks with plugs at 1.5ms which would seem to compete with PT. These plugs of course are not heavy duty DSP type plugs, but just Logic plugs...

[midnightsun]

I had a enjoyed Logic Pro 8/Symphony and it worked very well. i switched to PTHD. I like tracking and mixing with PTHD better than Logic (my personal preference). However, I have found that tracking or mixing in Logic through the PT cards has been problematic. I would go one way or the other.