Quick question about logic 8's software monitoring
Old 25th June 2008
  #1
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Quick question about logic 8's software monitoring

Fellow slutz,
I'd have question.. Love maestro low latency but i hate that fact that i cant use a little reverb while recording vocals..

There is any way(or workaround)to use plug ins in logic 8 when software monitoring is disabled?
Old 25th June 2008
  #2
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Keep software monitoring enabled, turn the fader on the track you're recording all the way down, make a pre-fader aux send to a reverb, count to three and hit record

Last edited by Nordkrog; 25th June 2008 at 04:14 PM.. Reason: bummer... I wrote post-fader instead of pre-fader
Old 25th June 2008
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordkrog View Post
Keep software monitoring enabled, turn the fader on the track you're recording all the way down, make a post-fader aux send to a reverb, count to three and hit record
How does this make sense? A post fader send with the fader all the way down will not send anything to the reverb aux.

Software monitoring with plugins in Logic is very easy if you have enough CPU power to handle the load. Here is how to set it up.
1. Enable software monitoring in your preferences.
2. Enable low latency mode either in the preferences or using the button on the transport. (If you get clicks or pops while in low latency mode you can adjust the low latency limit in the preferences. If that doesn't work you probably need to upgrade your hardware.)
3. Create a send for reverb/effects, configure and route as desired. (NOTE: With low latency mode enabled track sends will glow orange. This is because the sends are not active by default when operating in low latency mode and using software monitoring.)
4. Right click any sends that are orange and select low latency safe. (This will allow the sends to work while low latency mode is enabled.)

If everything is setup as described you should be able to use software monitoring in low latency mode with a send for reverb or other effects. As an alternative, you could setup sends on seperate outputs for discrete headphone mixes using software monitoring.

I think this is what you were asking about?
Old 25th June 2008
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tms8707056 View Post
How does this make sense? A post fader send with the fader all the way down will not send anything to the reverb aux.

Software monitoring with plugins in Logic is very easy if you have enough CPU power to handle the load. Here is how to set it up.
1. Enable software monitoring in your preferences.
2. Enable low latency mode either in the preferences or using the button on the transport. (If you get clicks or pops while in low latency mode you can adjust the low latency limit in the preferences. If that doesn't work you probably need to upgrade your hardware.)
3. Create a send for reverb/effects, configure and route as desired. (NOTE: With low latency mode enabled track sends will glow orange. This is because the sends are not active by default when operating in low latency mode and using software monitoring.)
4. Right click any sends that are orange and select low latency safe. (This will allow the sends to work while low latency mode is enabled.)

If everything is setup as described you should be able to use software monitoring in low latency mode with a send for reverb or other effects. As an alternative, you could setup sends on seperate outputs for discrete headphone mixes using software monitoring.

I think this is what you were asking about?
SORRY I should have written PRE-FADER off course.. you're right about the way to setup the low latency mode, but if you want NO LATENCY at all, you can use my method (and monitor the direct dry signal that you are recording through your audio interface mix software or hardware mixer...)
Old 25th June 2008
  #5
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That could work if the send is pre-fader. But... depending on the buffer settings wouldn't the latency introduced make the reverb feel unnatural or "disconnected" from the original signal? There would not be any latency on the dry signal but there would be for the reverb signal on the send causing it to be delayed slightly. This could be very distracting depending on the type of reverb used vs. the amount of latency. Low latency mode may still be a good idea if this happens.
Old 25th June 2008
  #6
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Guys, thanks for all the inputs.. I'm still confused though

The reverb is going to sound 'disconnected' even if I use a buffer setting of 32?I bought symphony to avoid this kind of problems..

Wouldn't be better(less latency) to put the reverb as a track insert?Also why should i use logic's low latency mode if i already use maestro?
Old 25th June 2008
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
The reverb is going to sound 'disconnected' even if I use a buffer setting of 32?I bought symphony to avoid this kind of problems..
With a buffer that size there would be a very small amount of latency and probably wouldn't be noticed. I don't know if it will be lower than 5ms, which is where the low latency mode limits acceptable latency by defualt. Low latency mode allows you to work with a higher buffer setting while still having low latency monitoring for recording. If your buffer will go that low and have very little latency without clicking and poping, you shouldn't need low latency mode enabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
Wouldn't be better(less latency) to put the reverb as a track insert?Also why should i use logic's low latency mode if i already use maestro?
Since the sends are routed inside the software there should not be any latency (other than the very little bit that is introduced by processing the signal). So you probably wouldn't notice a difference between and effect send vs an insert.
Old 26th June 2008
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
Fellow slutz,
I'd have question.. Love maestro low latency but i hate that fact that i cant use a little reverb while recording vocals..

There is any way(or workaround)to use plug ins in logic 8 when software monitoring is disabled?
1) Monitor your dry signal (only) through Maestro: Make sure the fader (in Logic) on the track you are recording is all the way down.

2) Make sure Software Monitoring is enabled.

3) Then, set up a PRE fader send to a reverb on the recording track, and assign a reverb to the relevant AUX and turn up the send level.


The reverb will have a tiny latency (depending on your buffer size), but that shouldn't be a problem, since reverbs normally have a predelay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tms8707056 View Post
Low latency mode allows you to work with a higher buffer setting while still having low latency monitoring for recording.
Low Latency Mode will not allow you a low latency (on the dry signal, if you are monitoring the recorded signal using software monitoring) if your buffer settings are high, but it will bypass plugins with a latency higher than the defined amount of milliseconds in the LLM settings. Even with LLM on, the dry signal (in software monitoring mode) will be affected by two buffers, the Safety I/O buffer (if enabled), FireWire (if used) etc.
Old 26th June 2008
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
1) Monitor your dry signal (only) through Maestro: Make sure the fader (in Logic) on the track you are recording is all the way down.

2) Make sure Software Monitoring is enabled.

3) Then, set up a PRE fader send to a reverb on the recording track, and assign a reverb to the relevant AUX and turn up the send level.


The reverb will have a tiny latency (depending on your buffer size), but that should me a problem, since reverbs normally have a predelay.

Thanks man!!! With a buffer size of 64/128 the reverb's latency should be pretty undetectable, right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Low Latency Mode will not allow you a low latency (on the dry signal, if you are monitoring the recorded signal using software monitoring) if your buffer settings are high, but it will bypass plugins with a latency higher than the defined amount of milliseconds in the LLM settings. Even with LLM on, the dry signal (in software monitoring mode) will be affected by two buffers, the Safety I/O buffer (if enabled), FireWire (if used) etc.
What you mean exactly..? It doesn't make any sense using the low latency mode while recording an audio track with just a reverb plug in on a buss?
Old 26th June 2008
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
Thanks man!!! With a buffer size of 64/128 the reverb's latency should be pretty undetectable, right?
Since reverb by it's very nature is a delayed signal, and also is meant to be in the background, and not foreground, I don't think these buffer settings would represent a problem. Even the singers who are more inspired/perform better with a little reverb in the headphone often want to have it not too loud, since it may disturb the intonation...



Quote:
Low Latency Mode will not allow you a low latency (on the dry signal, if you are monitoring the recorded signal using software monitoring) if your buffer settings are high, but it will bypass plugins with a latency higher than the defined amount of milliseconds in the LLM settings. Even with LLM on, the dry signal (in software monitoring mode) will be affected by two buffers, the Safety I/O buffer (if enabled), FireWire (if used) etc.
Quote:
What you mean exactly..? It doesn't make any sense using the low latency mode while recording an audio track with just a reverb plug in on a buss?
I mean that "Low latency mode allows you to work with a higher buffer setting while still having low latency monitoring for recording" is a confusing statement, because if you monitor the dry signal directly (using eg. Maestro) the dry signal will have 'no latency' anyway, and activating LLM (depending on the setting) could even bypass the whole reverb (if it causes a latency higher than the user selected max. value).

If you use the 3-step setup I suggested, you don't need to think of LLM unless you also have inserts in the signal chain (eg. on EFX on your main outputs) that will cause even more latency on the reverb added to the recorded signal than the buffer size imply.

All LLM does is to bypass some plugins - it's not ensuring low latency if you use Software Monitoring and have high buffer settings: If you for instance use the 256 buffer you will have more ethan 11.6 milliseconds latency (plus converters, plus possible latency caused by FireWire, plus latency caused by the Safety I/O buffer setting) even if Low Latency Mode is on. Low Latency Mode is an 'Auto-bypass Certain Plug-ins Mode'.

I'm not sure if this answers your question?
Old 27th June 2008
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Low Latency Mode is an 'Auto-bypass Certain Plug-ins Mode'.
This is not true. I can software monitor a signal without any plugins, with a really high buffer and there will be a delay in the signal (obviously). However, if I leave the buffer really high and engage low latency mode the delay disappears. If LLM only bypasses certain plugins for lower latency, then why would the delay disappear if there aren't any plugins loaded? LLM may bypass plugins that introduce more latency than the limit set in the preferences, but this is definitely not all that it does. Try it yourself and see.
Old 27th June 2008
  #12
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Quote:
This is not true. I can software monitor a signal without any plugins, with a really high buffer and there will be a delay in the signal (obviously). However, if I leave the buffer really high and engage low latency mode the delay disappears. [...] Try it yourself and see.
I actually already have tried it (but not after the 8.02 update).

Here's what the manual says about Low Latency Mode:


Quote:
The Low Latency mode allows you to limit the maximum delay time caused by plug-ins. Plug-ins will be bypassed to ensure that the maximum delay that can occur across the entire signal flow (of the current track) remains under the chosen value. The Low Latency mode is extremely useful when you need to play a software instrument (or to monitor through an audio channel) when plug-ins with high latencies are already in use—at any point in the signal flow for the selected track/channel.
Quote:
Note: The sound may change in Low Latency mode. Depending on the plug-ins in use, the changes can be anything from subtle to dramatic. If plug-ins being used do not exceed the total latency limit, there will be no audible difference.


If you suggest that something has changed regarding LLM that hasn't been documented, and that the manual is wrong, nobody would be more happy about this than me, but if software monitoring actually is used, and software monitoring - unlike direct monitoring - is using the buffers, how would it be possible to bypass the buffers?

Quote:
if I leave the buffer really high...
These buffers causes a latency that can be calculated by taking the buffer size and divide it by the sample rate - times two, because there are at least two buffers in use when you record audio. In other words, if you use a 512 buffer, the latency from the buffers alone will be 23 milliseconds @ 44.1 khz. A 1024 buffer will mean at least 46 ms of latency.
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