bad mic pres on audio interface - get a new interface or external tube amps?

[Oxytoxine]

hi guys;

i bought an m-audio fast track pro for recording some acoustic guitar outside the studio. problem: the mic pres have not enough gain, i have to crank up the gain to get an acceptable input level using AKG condenser mics, resulting in no headroom at all and too much noise.
two questions:
- are those mic pres quite simply shitty? (i heard good things about some of the higher level m-audio stuff and also like the octane a friend has in the studio)?
- would it be worth getting decent external mic pres or should i just get another interface (would like to stay usb though, so a RME is not an option).
can one at all expect +/- acceptable pres at all in this price range? from reading the specs, the emu 0404 and tracker pre interfaces seem to be very nice, almost too nice..

thanks for shedding some light on this!
oxy

ps: i like the "rest" of the fast-track pro, suffices my "on the road" needs perfectly

[waltermusik]

problem: the mic pres have not enough gain, i have to crank up the gain to get an acceptable input level using AKG condenser mics, resulting in no headroom at all and too much noise.

When you use up all your headroom, this does not suggest the input level is too low. Maybe it is something different?
I think without a limiter and peaks around -6dB, you can expect a typical RMS of -20dB for electrical guitar and -25 for acoustic. I would be fine with that but if this is not enough, I'd suggest an external pre-amp with a compressor/limiter.
To reduce noise, I'd experiment with mic placements (which AKG, by the way?) and the Inst/Line and pad buttons.

- are those mic pres quite simply shitty?

can one at all expect +/- acceptable pres at all in this price range?

Depends on your expectations. I don't know the pres myself but judging from the review I read, they are NOT simply shitty. I don't know much about preamps but I'd guess a major step up would be quite an investment. I heard good things about SM PRO AUDIO TC02 but never used it myself. Ca. 250 USD.

[Oxytoxine]

Originally Posted by waltermusik

When you use up all your headroom, this does not suggest the input level is too low. Maybe it is something different?
I think without a limiter and peaks around -6dB, you can expect a typical RMS of -20dB for electrical guitar and -25 for acoustic. I would be fine with that but if this is not enough, I'd suggest an external pre-amp with a compressor/limiter.
To reduce noise, I'd experiment with mic placements (which AKG, by the way?) and the Inst/Line and pad buttons.

Depends on your expectations. I don't know the pres myself but judging from the review I read, they are NOT simply shitty. I don't know much about preamps but I'd guess a major step up would be quite an investment. I heard good things about SM PRO AUDIO TC02 but never used it myself. Ca. 250 USD.

dear walter;

thank you very much for having taken the time; your response was very helpful for me! i did not know that so low RMS are normal for recording acoustic sources (up to now i was used to electric stuff).
i have akg perception 200 condenser mics (could not afford more expensive ones and actually liked their sound).
in order to get -25 db RMS as shown by samplitudes input peak monitor (with the mic preamps), i really have to turn the gain almost completely up; one tick more, and the inherent noise becomes very apparent. and this is with the guitar maybe 30-50cm away, more is not possible; when i use lower input gain, i have to normalize, and then the noise is worse than a lawnmower (am i right in assuming that normalizing, at least at this step, would anyway be a capital crime, even with 24 bit recordings?)
using the instrument inputs for electric guitar/bass is no problem, there i could easily go to -10 db or even higher, very quiet and clean signal.

thank you very much, i really appreciate your help (and will also experiment with limiting already when recording)

cheers

oxy

[waltermusik]

Hi Oxy,

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

i have akg perception 200 condenser mics (could not afford more expensive ones and actually liked their sound).

I don't know this one but from what I read, I suppose it plays in the same noise league as my C3000. Its output level is about 3dB softer then the C3000, which should be fine.

in order to get -25 db RMS as shown by samplitudes input peak monitor (with the mic preamps), i really have to turn the gain almost completely up; one tick more, and the inherent noise becomes very apparent. and this is with the guitar maybe 30-50cm away, more is not possible; when i use lower input gain, i have to normalize, and then the noise is worse than a lawnmower (am i right in assuming that normalizing, at least at this step, would anyway be a capital crime, even with 24 bit recordings?)

To me this sounds like a problem "before" the preamp. Your mic distance sounds reasonable to me. Are you sure the noise is no background noise that comes from outside? How does it sound when you record within your studio? Have you tried to borrow a louder mic? Have you tried a different mic cable?

Also, your mic has some switches to play around with (e.g. -10dB pad).

With 24bit, the normalizing does not do much harm but does not help either, as it will increase the level of the noise as well as the guitar.

Good luck, Thomas

[Oxytoxine]

Originally Posted by waltermusik

Hi Oxy,



I don't know this one but from what I read, I suppose it plays in the same noise league as my C3000. Its output level is about 3dB softer then the C3000, which should be fine.

To me this sounds like a problem "before" the preamp. Your mic distance sounds reasonable to me. Are you sure the noise is no background noise that comes from outside? How does it sound when you record within your studio? Have you tried to borrow a louder mic? Have you tried a different mic cable?

Also, your mic has some switches to play around with (e.g. -10dB pad).

With 24bit, the normalizing does not do much harm but does not help either, as it will increase the level of the noise as well as the guitar.

Good luck, Thomas

hi thomas;

thanks for your helpful advice; i will try to sort it out over the weekend.

stay tuned and cheers

oxy

[mountainstorm]

Let me save you the hassle. The Fast track pros pres are shite, noisy and without much gain. I keep mine as a midi interface and got a ULN2 which has given me a new world of quality.

Rich