IS THIS A GOOD DEAL ON PRO TOOLS HD?

[GigIdea]

Just asking for a little help here. What do you think ?. Is this a (are these) pretty good deal (s)? Especially considering I’m ordering it all at once? This is what I was quoted on the following systems. These are alternatives for my personal studio. I only record myself, and I’m just going to pick ONE of them.


Okay. Now, these components will be the same in each system:

PowerMac Dual G5 1.8, 1 Gig Ram, 60 G HD
(Viewing Monitor not included)
120 G Glyph Drive
MOTU Fastlane 2/2 Midi USB
(2) Adam P33 Monitors

Here is where I make my choices:

Alternative 1:
Pro Tools HD System, Digidesign 96 I/O, and Apogee Rosetta 200>>>>$16,600.00

Alternative 2:
Same as Alternative 1 but add Digidesign MassivePack (plugins) >>>>>>$17,795.00


Alternative 3:
Same as Alternative 1 but add Digidesign MassivePack Pro (plugins and accel card) >>>$20,400.00

Alternative 4:
Pro Tools HD 2 System, Digidesign 96 I/O, Apogee Rosetta 200, MassivePack (plugins)>>>>$20,100

Alternative 5:
Same as Alternative 5 but take out the 96 I/O and Apogee Rosetta 200. Replace with Apogee AD-16X and Apogee DA-16X>>>>>>>$22,000.00

What do you think of the price/value etc.? I don’t know if I can do much better. The dealer is also known for service and good long term support.
Thanks in advance for your input. Always good to get different perspectives.

[manning1]

with respect why do you feel you have to spend this type of money ? to record ?
ive learnt from past experience that one always gets burnt
when buying very high end.
technology is changing so quickly . and then there is the issue of future service down the road.
i learnt this the hard way years ago. couldnt get a smt vlsi chip replaced in a critical unit. brought my studio down.
i remember in the mid eighties when someone asked me as an example if he should pay hundreds of thousands for a digital
multitrack. i advised against it. met him a few years later.
said to me i wish i'd listened to you. never recouped my investment.
if this upsets you then i apologise for being an honest technologist.
if you want alternatives for personal recording that are way less cost just ask. one can put a nice rig together for 5k
including the computer.

in addition there is a major strategic shift that is occurring in pro audio. with the advent of 3ghz plus processors and as the shift in power moves on up to 8 ghz more functions presently done in outboard units will (are) gradually move native into the host pc.
peace.

[carmen]

What do you think of the price/value etc.? I don’t know if I can do much better.

AMD64-939-3000+/ShuttleSN95G5/512ddr/160gSamsungSATA - %600 @ newegg/zipzoomfly
Samplitude 8.0 %999

for a total of %1600, one tenth of your cheapest option, not to mention significantly faster and better

[GigIdea]

Now manning, you're potentially taking bread from mouths of the poor starving Digidesign employees' children with that kind of talk now aren't you?

Appreciate the concerns. I have the setup of which you speak, a dual opteron PC running SONAR 4 Producer with an Echo Layla 24. Nothing but problems. I know a lot about windowsxp errors and how to fix audio dropouts, but have done precious little recording, mixing and mastering.

And the sound quality is okay but I downloaded a Samplitude demo the other day and it sounds much better. So I want to get waway from what I've got.

ProTools HD certainly isn't anything unusual. Expensive, yes, but I understand fewer problems AND MUCH BETTER SOUND. Plus, I can record my CDs finally, get some mastering help, and get them released.

Of course, if I was convinced I could get the same results with a better front end (Apogee or other, good mic and pre) and a less expensive native solution like Logic, DP, or Nuendo I would do it. My main issues are reliability, what goes in, and what it sounds like when it comes out (well defined mix, etc.). Is there a better way to accomplish this than ProTools HD?

41 views as I'm checking in now and only one opinion? I know this forum is more opinionated than that!! Do I have to go to Fletcher's board?

[chrisso]

I heard from several users that the 96 I/O interface sounded significantly worse than the 192. If I was spending your kind of money I wouldn't want that big a weak link in my system.

[GigIdea]

Originally posted by carmen
AMD64-939-3000+/ShuttleSN95G5/512ddr/160gSamsungSATA - %600 @ newegg/zipzoomfly
Samplitude 8.0 %999

for a total of %1600, one tenth of your cheapest option, not to mention significantly faster and better

carmen--

Thanks for your reply. Don't think I haven't looked at this. Here are my issues with it (but I am open, for this kind of money, to have my mind changed--that's why I'm posting here!!):

(1) I LOVE the sound of Samplitude but I worry about compatibility issues. The website says use a P4. I have had a lot of screwy mystical error messages with SONAR on my present DAW, an AMD Opteron 240 dual processor with 1 gig (now 2gigs) of memory. Using Windows XP sp1. (I probably need to send her back to my builder--there may be memory or sound card problems--but I suspect its just the old Windows thing for a number of reasons I won't go into here.)

(2) On the other hand, I downloaded the Samp demo onto my Opteron PC and things seemed to be okay. This was after (because of so many problems) completely wiping out my system hard drive and reinstalling Windows XP. This was also before reinstalling SONAR 4 Producer.

(3) I 'm a little skeptical about 512 gigs of RAM and an AMD 64 3000 CPU running Samplitude. Especially on a level equivalent to the horsepower you would get from a Pro Tools HD system. Have you done this? If you are then I defer to your experience. How many tracks are you getting? Effects, VSTs, softsamplers etc.

Again, thanks very much.

[GigIdea]

Originally posted by chrisso
I heard from several users that the 96 I/O interface sounded significantly worse than the 192. If I was spending your kind of money I wouldn't want that big a weak link in my system.

Hmmm.. That's interesting info and I Thank you for sharing it. I'll definitely bring it up with the door-to-door salesman when he comes back tonight.

Just kidding. Can you imagine: " [Knock..Knock] Hello, Mr. Jones? I'm John Doe from DigiDesign. Not selling anything, just sharing information about our company's products with people in your community. Let's see now, says here that you're a singer/songwriter...Fine! Do you have a place where we can sit down?"

Sorry. I haven't had my coffee yet. I'll definitely ask the rep about this though. Thanks again.

[Ruphus]

Samp runs on a little, tiny, small 1800 AMD CPU here and it scores incredible track count for its size 12X stereo record, over 60x playback at 96k.

I don´t know why they hang on to silly Intel, but I guess AMD works alright with their stuff.

Only be aware that Magix web is a POS. They bother you with heaps of loggins and their forum moderator talks to you like if you were disturbing a teenager.
And forget about midi. At least in v 7.2 you can´t even merge midi objects / regions which makes it almost useless. And there are couple more disadvantages, but its sound, general versatility, stability / ease on CPU and work flow make it a really good host.

Ruphus

[manning1]

gig. i'm a computer engr. lets look at this opteron situation of yours. ive helped more than a few people.
firstly could you go into more detail the types of problems. ?
firstly lets look at power supply.
what i'm tending to find is on some high end pc's people have spent so much on the processor they might skimp on the power supply. heres the situation. often ive found.
people start off with a nice system but then add more peripherals - oops - forgot about the power supply !
maybe the added stuff has strained the power supply.
thus i'm always counselling people to think of their future needs and whether the power supply can keep up.
and no ! - i'm not trying to take bread out of little kids mouths. what a horrid thought. i'm just trying to protect your hard earned money. imho there will be major (already are) earthquakes in the recording industry as pc's become ever more powerfull.
nothing i can do about that. the market will decide.
if i had my way, no kid in the world would go hungry.
i have a feeling that youll see once any user has 8ghz processors with excellent ada and inexpensive software at his disposal .
this will cause major problems for those that over invested in the earlier technology cycle. thats all i'm saying.
now lets turn to other issues. you said you had problems.
with layla ? drop outs etc ? could you go into more detail please.
you have a very powerfull system there which should do a boatload of tracks and plug ins.
please could you tell me a little bit about your drives ?
8 mb caches ? how many tracks before you get drop outs ?
also i HOPE someone set up your drives properly.
peace.

[tommyd]

Originally posted by chrisso
I heard from several users that the 96 I/O interface sounded significantly worse than the 192. If I was spending your kind of money I wouldn't want that big a weak link in my system.

I will second this thought. From what I understand, the 96I/O is basicly just a 96k capable "888", and the 192I/O is a completely new design from the ground up.
TommyD

[manning1]

ruphus. out of interest what ada are you running on that amd of yours. if you want a nice midi sequencer check out powertracks that i use. does neat things like splits midi data from one track onto others. lots of nice midi editing features, notation etc.
peace.

[Ruphus]

Hi Manning,

Do you mean convertors?
The card is a Lynx two. Use external cons though, Lavry blue A/D, D/A and Benchmark DAC1.

340w PSU. Two 80 gig Barracudas for audio hooked up to PCI controller card + one swap drive on onboard port. I gig 333 RAM. XP slimmed down, anything not related to DAW requirements disabled.

Ruphus

[manning1]

thnx rufus. i'm thinking of upgrading my ada on my amd system this year. just an idea. watch out for generic clone power supplies if thats what your using. some of them have been know to perform under rated spec . as sooo many are churned out.
if your considering adding more things to your amd system you might want to err on the side of caution and upgrade the power supply. your getting some nice track counts !
peace.

[djui5]

Aside from other comments on this thread.......we have a HD3 rig at the studio...with 2 192 I/O's...one having an additional analog input card..the other an output card...for 24 in's and out's........and it's f'n great. Wouldn't want anything more. I love the 192's....they're great converters. I haven't used the 96's.....but if they're just a 96 capable 888 then that would suck...cuz there's a huge difference between the 888 and 192......

Is the glyph drive SCSI?.........

Also..might wanna get a gig and a half of ram if you're going to be mixing in the box.


I'd suggest a HD3 Accell system with 2 192 I/O's and the additional cards to give them 24 I/O's.....

[Ruphus]

It´s an Enermax with active PFC.

Ruphus

[s0nguy]

[QUOTE]

PowerMac Dual G5 1.8, 1 Gig Ram, 60 G HD
(Viewing Monitor not included)
120 G Glyph Drive
MOTU Fastlane 2/2 Midi USB
(2) Adam P33 Monitors


- I dont know much about Mac prices....I run my HD on a water-cooled PC that I built. Cost ~$1500.00


Here is where I make my choices:

Alternative 1:
Pro Tools HD System, Digidesign 96 I/O, and Apogee Rosetta 200>>>>$16,600.00

Alternative 2:
Same as Alternative 1 but add Digidesign MassivePack (plugins) >>>>>>$17,795.00


Alternative 3:
Same as Alternative 1 but add Digidesign MassivePack Pro (plugins and accel card) >>>$20,400.00

Alternative 4:
Pro Tools HD 2 System, Digidesign 96 I/O, Apogee Rosetta 200, MassivePack (plugins)>>>>$20,100

Alternative 5:
Same as Alternative 5 but take out the 96 I/O and Apogee Rosetta 200. Replace with Apogee AD-16X and Apogee DA-16X>>>>>>>$22,000.00

JEBUS CHRIST MAN! Is your HD rig going to be gold plated or something!??!?! I thought your first price was for an HD3!!


Here is roughly what i paid:

Used HD1 w/6.4 software: $4000.00
New HD Accel Card $2500.00
BRAND NEW 192 Interface (forget the 96!!): $2800.00
DEMO UNIT CONTROL 24: $5000.00 (full warranty)

TOTAL COST= ~$14300.00

But lets do it the way you have it configured.......

You can easily find an HD core on EBay or the DUC for around $5000.00
Get the 192.....$2900.00
You Apogee 200 $1800.00

That's $9700.00...a FAR CRY from your 16-20 grand. You could add a Control 24 to this price and still come out ahead! Good GOD man....do some homework and snooping around.

Granted, this is without any special plug-ins. However, I see what comes with the Massive pack and would generally usae about 40% of the plugs. I use Waves and others much more.

Bottom line...I think you are getting taken to the cleaners. Send me an email (gener1c@hotmail.com) if you need help looking for HD gear....I spent months doing research and looking for the best prices.


-S0nguy


[QUOTE]

[s0nguy]

if you ARE stuck on the 96....there is a guy selling on on the GS FS site...he wants 1400 for it...

-S0nguy

[morpheus]

That's a great system!

I would skip the 96 and the Apogee and go for the 192. The 192 is one of the best interfaces I've ever heard. I would be concerned about long term compatibility with the Apogee because Apogee are not officially supported by Digi, and more importantly the Apogees do not support ADC which is a major feature of Pro Tools 6.

I'd also skip the Glyph drive unless there was a particular reason you wanted Glyph. Since the death of SCSI I haven't seen many studios using Glyph because their main claim to fame was removable SCSI. A Granite Digital firewire is cheaper and just as portable. Or add a fast Raptor SATA drive into your G5 and just buy a cheap Firewire drive for moving sessions around and backup

[Henchman]

If it's soundquality your worried about. get Nuendo , a couple of UAd-1 cards, a powercore card or firewire interface, and a nice Athlon based PC.

The compressors are absolutly wicked in the UAd-1 crads. I have just installed my 2nd one, and it's nice being able to use a couple of Fairlchild, 1176 and LA-2A comps. As well as the cambridge EQ.

Get a good interface, like the RME stuff, and you will still have a kickass system, with all the power you need. More flexibilty, especially in the VSTi and midi department.

Editing in Nuendo rocks as well.

[lukejs]

Here's what I'd do ..... Go buy a fast 3.2 ghz P4 machine ( or the new 3.4 ghz with 2 meg. cache). Get a motherboard that supports SATA Raid. buy two western digital Raptor 10k rpm drives. Stick in a gig or two of DDR2 low latency memory. Buy a pci powercore card ( with the plugins) and one card without ( the pci element). As for Converters , go buy the Apogee AD16x and DA16x, and for the interface, get a Lynx Studio AES16 interface. Also , buy an maudio midi sport 4x4 or something equivelent for midi IO. Now, go buy Sonar 4 producer edition, Reason 2.5 and Gigastudio 3 , and the sony oxford plugins for powercore, and go record some serious shit for less than 8,000 bucks !!! Now... when technology improves..... you still have great converters and interface, and can just upgrade your pc ..... the pc is the more disposable component !!! YOu could also do all this with a Mac, and , say, Logic 7 for software...... and you'll still come out a lot cheaper. ( but youll have to buy a separate pc for gigastudio.....but that could be had for less than 600 bucks.)

[Henchman]

Originally posted by lukejs
Here's what I'd do ..... Go buy a fast 3.2 ghz P4 machine

Now, go buy Sonar 4 producer edition, Reason 2.5 and Gigastudio 3 , and the sony oxford plugins for powercore, and go record some serious shit for less than 8,000 bucks !!!

If you go back and read, you will see that he already has Sonar, and is unhappy with it.

Also, if youd o some research you will find, that currently Athlon chips are outperforming the Intel chips at a lower pricepoint.

I don't disagree with the powercore thing. However, it all depends on what kind of music he is doing.

I can see that you are probably a dance type musician. The availble synths for Powercore make sense. Howvere for compressors you cannot beat the UAD-1. If you've ever used a real 1176, LA2A or fairchild compressor. You know what toe xpect whe nyou set it up a certain way on instruments. the UAd-1 plug-ins will give you that sound you were looking for.

Reverbs, the Powercore is great, from what i hear. i am thinking that my next purchase will be a powercore for the reverb. Right now, I just got the M2 reverb, and it's the best reverb plkug-in I've tried, to date.
I tried the princeton, but thought it kinda sucked.

Personnal y I would get both the powercore and UAD cards. Way more bang for the buck compored to the overpriced Accel cards.

[squizz]

I have Nuendo and a creamware Scope card (and i will soon have a UAD card) all running on a 2.4 ghz P4 and seriously could not ask for more. Aside from all the native power i get i get DSP power from the cream ware card. Ther arent many plugins that run on it but the one that do are pretty good (check out the timeworks reverb and the transient designer). This thing could not be more stable.

For a front end i have a radar handling my conversion 24 in and out. I get extremely low latency, low strain on the Cpu, and stabilty. All the things protools is suppose ti have over native. I wish more people would get on the creamware boat, so they start making more plugins for it. I have nothing but good things to say about that system.

And on top of all that i paid ALOT less than all of the option you have listed.

$2000 for the pc (w/ monitor)
$1000 for the creamware card
$800 for nuendo
$3-4 grand for a used radar system (i paid less but i got a REALLY good deal)
$800 Uad card
$500-$1000 various plugins (although Nuendo does come with some pretty good ones)

all that for under $9000 dollars. And even cheaper if you look hard enough. Its cheaper and you get 24in &outs, alot of DSP and if you need more add another Uad or a powercore. and its still less then ALL the options you have listed.

Even when you include the monitors, the hard drive, and midi interface.

[Henchman]

Thecool thing about the Non Pt's set-up, is that you have more options and an easier "entry" path. You don't have to spend a whole pile fo dough at oned time.
With the various DSP solutions available now for native systems, I jsut find it a better solution.

And your not tied to digi'd fixed pricing scheme.

[Exmun]

GigIdea,

Since you already have a PC, why not at least try out Samplitude. That way if you're happy, you won't be out of $20k to get something that you're really close to... especially since this is just for a personal studio. Go to www.jdsound.com They've got a great upgrade price. You can buy Sam 6.0 2496 and upgrade to to Version 8 for total $500. Even if you don't like it you can always use Sam for home mastering or what not. It's a quality program.

[morpheus]

I don't get it - the guy asks for input on a proposed Mac Pro Tools system, and you guys post how great your PC native systems are?!

I guess if your buddy asks you if he should get a green or a red Porsche sportscar, y'all tell him he can buy 2 blue Ford trucks for the same price instead?

Originally posted by Henchman
With the various DSP solutions available now for native systems, I jsut find it a better solution.

And your not tied to digi'd fixed pricing scheme.

There are no DSP solutions for native that match the power and plugin availability of Pro Tools. And what is this 'fixed pricing scheme'?

To the original poster - you would be better off asking this questions over at the DUC where there are a lot more Pro Tools users.

Originally posted by tommyd
I will second this thought. From what I understand, the 96I/O is basicly just a 96k capable "888", and the 192I/O is a completely new design from the ground up.
TommyD

That's a bunch of crap.

[Henchman]

Originally posted by morpheus

There are no DSP solutions for native that match the power and plugin availability of Pro Tools. And what is this 'fixed pricing scheme'?

You're right. There are better options.

[squizz]

Originally posted by morpheus
I don't get it - the guy asks for input on a proposed Mac Pro Tools system, and you guys post how great your PC native systems are?!

I guess if your buddy asks you if he should get a green or a red Porsche sportscar, y'all tell him he can buy 2 blue Ford trucks for the same price instead?


There are no DSP solutions for native that match the power and plugin availability of Pro Tools. And what is this 'fixed pricing scheme'?

To the original poster - you would be better off asking this questions over at the DUC where there are a lot more Pro Tools users.

I must disagree with you. my system has just as much DSP power as the protools options i have used (havent used hd3 accel yet, but i work on a hd2 rig almost everyday). and native has just as much plugin availibilty (VST's)

I under stand you may have invested in protools and thus feel the need to defend it but its no better than a number of the alternitives that have been listed here. your analogy to a porche and a ford truck are off base. the native solutions are just as viable as the protools solution.

i work on both and both are EQUALLY as powerful no one is better just different. Personally i like nuendo, it fits my workflow, protools isnt at all bad i find it takes more to do the same thing in protools it take me to do in Nuendo, but i suspect that just has to do with familiarity.

Both formats are viable solutions PC or Mac, nuendo (or whatever) or protools, they both get the job done. And despite what people tell about cross compatability, its POSSIBLE i do it everyday.

[GigIdea]

Originally posted by djui5
Aside from other comments on this thread.......we have a HD3 rig at the studio...with 2 192 I/O's...one having an additional analog input card..the other an output card...for 24 in's and out's........and it's f'n great. Wouldn't want anything more. I love the 192's....they're great converters. I haven't used the 96's.....but if they're just a 96 capable 888 then that would suck...cuz there's a huge difference between the 888 and 192......

Is the glyph drive SCSI?.........

Also..might wanna get a gig and a half of ram if you're going to be mixing in the box.


I'd suggest a HD3 Accell system with 2 192 I/O's and the additional cards to give them 24 I/O's.....

Been gone all day. Just got back and saw all the replies. Thanks all.

djui5:
(1) I only want to get this system to record yours truly, so I don't need much I/O really, at least not for what I'll be recording. I'm not Gary Chang . or even Hanz Zimmer

(2) All the talk about 96's v. 192's is interesting. I will probably go with Alternative 5, in which case I don't need either box. Apogee ad/da16x plus fake-out card gives me all the ins and outs I need. I have my reasons for preferring the Apogee converters to the 192's.

If i go with the Rosetta and the 96 I/O, I'll send the Rosetta through the 96, using it as an interface so I don't have to buy an Apogee card to fool the HD system. I will bypass the 96's converters in the process, of course. I can use the rest of the 96's ins and outs for as sends/returns for outboard effects--I can't imagine the 96 will inflict that much damage in that application will it?

(3) The glyph drive is not SCSI, its SATA.

(4) I'll probably put two gigs of RAM in her. I'm surprised to hear you say that I would need to up the RAM if I plan to mix in the box. What are all those pricey chips and cards I'm paying for going to be doing while my RAM is being pushed to its limits?

Thanks again. You guys are the best.

Mike

[GigIdea]

Originally posted by Henchman
If you go back and read, you will see that he already has Sonar, and is unhappy with it.


I can see that you are probably a dance type musician.
Personnal y I would get both the powercore and UAD cards. Way more bang for the buck compored to the overpriced Accel cards.

Couple of points: (1) I write my own music. Its probably adult alternative, very lyrical, some of it is punky, some straight on rock, a lot of it has acoustic guitar; its different but I really try to keep it "accessible" because my goal is to make music that I would want to listen to over and over again (ergo, TO SELL CDs.)
I am a firm believer in, lover of, seeker of, and creator of the unexpected Beatlesque melodic hook. If it doesn't wake you out of your distraction or get you out of your chair, its not going on my CD.

Okay.

(2) SONAR. Fine program, but once I heard the Samplitude demo on my PC I knew I was missing something bigtime. There is a sound quality issue for certain.

(3) SONAR. Maybe its my PC--dual Opteron, pretty powerful--or my soundcard, Echo Layla 24, but I've had nothing but problems. I think its probably a combination of things, and I strongly suspect the whole dead-in-the-water DirectX DXi thing. I also suspect SONAR's VST Wrapper is causing a lot of the problems. But who knows. Someone asked about my power supply. Antec 550. My DAW was built by the guys who are building dual Opterons for Steinberg's NUENDO DAWS right now.

If I could get a great sounding, well-defined result without dropping 10k just for ProTools HD, sure, I'd probably do it. The solution would also have to be reliable. I don't know what that solution is.

I'm going out again for awhile, but I'll be back in a few hours and I'll check in. You guys have been more than helpful. You don't know how much this means to us guys starting out, really.


[As an aside, along with the rest of this, I'm also planning on getting a Millennia Origin and an Empirical Labs Distressor. Anyone using these? Also, I just started using a Sherman Filterbank and a Moogerfooger last month and I'm having a blast! ]