Out of the box summing - why use a summing box?

joris de man · 13th June 2008, 02:00 AM

Sorry for the stupid topic title, as it sounds kinda obvious why.

But I would assume that people sum out of the box because a summing box either 'gels' better or at least adds a bit of mojo to the mix.

So what I've been wondering for the longest time, is if you're going to go that route, why not use a high quality 8 channel amp? Or something with tubes (like a TubeTracker), or anything else that can add some serious mojo?
One would think that anything that adds a bit of non linear 2nd and 3rd order distortion could help?

Educate me! :)

Cheers,

Joe

kafka · 13th June 2008, 02:40 AM

Well, it's that mojo thing, or preference, or whatever. If you happen to like what one particular summing box does to your mixes, then it's probably a good idea. They all do things slightly differently, and so it's hard to say that a summing box is categorically a good thing. I guess if you can explain adequately what the summing box is doing to your mix, then it might open your eyes to some other way to accomplish the same thing.

I like the idea of a tube summing box, although you could simply run your MB through some kind of a stereo tube line processor and probably get 99% of the same effect. Yeah, distortion on a mix can be appealing (to some). I mean, if you like running your entire mix through a pair of Boss Heavy Metal pedals, and it sounds good, then why wouldn't you do it?

If you find one that really floats your boat, then there's no artistic reason why you shouldn't use it if it's more expedient than some other means of accomplishing the same thing. There's no real objective/technical reason why one should use one. We are talking about aesthestics here, so whatever works is good.

**George Necola** · 13th June 2008, 04:45 AM

in my little computerworld a summingbox makes 10% of your whole signal chain.. my dangerousmusic summingbox is cool. just press a knob and you can mute it or push it +6dB.

I expect from a summingbox, that it does more separation to my music, mostly the loudness is higher and stuff like that.

don't expect "the cure"...

zzz · 13th June 2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joris de man

Sorry for the stupid topic title, as it sounds kinda obvious why.

But I would assume that people sum out of the box because a summing box either 'gels' better or at least adds a bit of mojo to the mix.

So what I've been wondering for the longest time, is if you're going to go that route, why not use a high quality 8 channel amp? Or something with tubes (like a TubeTracker), or anything else that can add some serious mojo?
One would think that anything that adds a bit of non linear 2nd and 3rd order distortion could help?

Educate me! :)

Cheers,

Joe

The summing box things are not easy. Its will step down or up your system. But its make me creativity.

engmix · 13th June 2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Necola

in my little computerworld a summingbox makes 10% of your whole signal chain.. my dangerousmusic summingbox is cool. just press a knob and you can mute it or push it +6dB.

I expect from a summingbox, that it does more separation to my music, mostly the loudness is higher and stuff like that.

don't expect "the cure"...

In your case, I can see that to be true. The Dangerous is very passive sounding compared to other devices. Although I do think its a step up from ITB. If you were using a Chandler Mini Mixer your percentage would go up in a big way.

**George Necola** · 13th June 2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engmix

In your case, I can see that to be true. The Dangerous is very passive sounding compared to other devices. Although I do think its a step up from ITB. If you were using a Chandler Mini Mixer your percentage would go up in a big way.

to be honest, I never had the chance to test the chandler minimixer, but it's just coloring more. I dont think I will make better mixes with the chandler.

I just know that the dangerous is cool because of the fact, that it has not to many buttons, and a recall is made in 20 seconds by pressing some knobs.

but.. YMMV ;)

joris de man · 13th June 2008, 02:43 PM

Well, as an experiment (and I don't know why I didn't do this before! :) ), I hooked an output of my Fireface to my DBX 386 Tube Preamp, and put through a bass patch while slightly overdriving the input channel...damn!!
That gives a pretty neat oomph to the bass without it getting woolly. Impressed!

So I reckon a TL audio Tubetracker could be fab for summing, if that is the sound you're going for.

Anyway, I always wondered what it was that people were looking for in summing OTB..so thanks for your answers!

Cheers,

Joe

pacha · 13th June 2008, 02:49 PM

I used to pass my mixes through my Fat Man and I liked the results, I was looking at the Tube Tracker but for that price I thought the Neve 8816 might be worth taking a look, you can check out the A/B samples with the Neve 8816 on this forum.

zzz · 13th June 2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joris de man

Well, as an experiment (and I don't know why I didn't do this before! :) ), I hooked an output of my Fireface to my DBX 386 Tube Preamp, and put through a bass patch while slightly overdriving the input channel...damn!!
That gives a pretty neat oomph to the bass without it getting woolly. Impressed!

So I reckon a TL audio Tubetracker could be fab for summing, if that is the sound you're going for.

Anyway, I always wondered what it was that people were looking for in summing OTB..so thanks for your answers!

Cheers,

Joe

That is not summing..

Man sick..

Roc Mixwell · 13th June 2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Necola

to be honest, I never had the chance to test the chandler minimixer, but it's just coloring more. I dont think I will make better mixes with the chandler.

You're right, it won't change the music,

Just the sonic footprint of your music.

Transformer in/out on the Channels......
Its like [it is] having 8 TG-2 circuits on your audio!!!

engmix · 13th June 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Necola

to be honest, I never had the chance to test the chandler minimixer, but it's just coloring more. I dont think I will make better mixes with the chandler.

I just know that the dangerous is cool because of the fact, that it has not to many buttons, and a recall is made in 20 seconds by pressing some knobs.

but.. YMMV ;)

I did have a chance to a/b them back to back. They were very different animals. Your comment on color is an interesting one. Color is often mentioned in passing. The color of a given piece of gear is often what differentiates one from the other, thus making it top priority in my opinion.

Will it make a better mix? Perhaps, perhaps not? Maybe the decisions made because of a units overall color/vibe will produce a better end result.

I thought both units were very good. I get the need for quick recall to. I choose Tonelux in the end. It had the best of both worlds for what I do. I align my input modules to unity gain, and mix into it, so the recall for the most part is instant.

peeder · 14th June 2008, 04:49 AM

The only thing I think they make sense for is a simple and relatively cheap way of applying outboard processing and bringing that back in via your two best ADCs.

There are plenty of treatments you can make on the 2bus, both analog and digital, that give you probably more and better of what the analog summers are giving you. Plus that way you can use your 2 best DACs as well, rather than 16 affordable ones.

A fully automated analog console also makes sense, for other reasons.

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13th June 2008, 02:00 AM	#1
joris de man Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam - now Shoreham-by-Sea, UK Posts: 353	Out of the box summing - why use a summing box? Sorry for the stupid topic title, as it sounds kinda obvious why. But I would assume that people sum out of the box because a summing box either 'gels' better or at least adds a bit of mojo to the mix. So what I've been wondering for the longest time, is if you're going to go that route, why not use a high quality 8 channel amp? Or something with tubes (like a TubeTracker), or anything else that can add some serious mojo? One would think that anything that adds a bit of non linear 2nd and 3rd order distortion could help? Educate me! :) Cheers, Joe __________________ Lowcut or High Pass?

13th June 2008, 02:40 AM	#2
kafka Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,142	Well, it's that mojo thing, or preference, or whatever. If you happen to like what one particular summing box does to your mixes, then it's probably a good idea. They all do things slightly differently, and so it's hard to say that a summing box is categorically a good thing. I guess if you can explain adequately what the summing box is doing to your mix, then it might open your eyes to some other way to accomplish the same thing. I like the idea of a tube summing box, although you could simply run your MB through some kind of a stereo tube line processor and probably get 99% of the same effect. Yeah, distortion on a mix can be appealing (to some). I mean, if you like running your entire mix through a pair of Boss Heavy Metal pedals, and it sounds good, then why wouldn't you do it? If you find one that really floats your boat, then there's no artistic reason why you shouldn't use it if it's more expedient than some other means of accomplishing the same thing. There's no real objective/technical reason why one should use one. We are talking about aesthestics here, so whatever works is good. __________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather. You'll love it ... Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny.

13th June 2008, 02:43 PM	#7
joris de man Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam - now Shoreham-by-Sea, UK Posts: 353	Well, as an experiment (and I don't know why I didn't do this before! :) ), I hooked an output of my Fireface to my DBX 386 Tube Preamp, and put through a bass patch while slightly overdriving the input channel...damn!! That gives a pretty neat oomph to the bass without it getting woolly. Impressed! So I reckon a TL audio Tubetracker could be fab for summing, if that is the sound you're going for. Anyway, I always wondered what it was that people were looking for in summing OTB..so thanks for your answers! Cheers, Joe __________________ Lowcut or High Pass?

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13th June 2008, 02:49 PM	#8
pacha Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 17	I used to pass my mixes through my Fat Man and I liked the results, I was looking at the Tube Tracker but for that price I thought the Neve 8816 might be worth taking a look, you can check out the A/B samples with the Neve 8816 on this forum.

14th June 2008, 04:49 AM	#12
peeder Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Working on my skills more =) Posts: 6,090	The only thing I think they make sense for is a simple and relatively cheap way of applying outboard processing and bringing that back in via your two best ADCs. There are plenty of treatments you can make on the 2bus, both analog and digital, that give you probably more and better of what the analog summers are giving you. Plus that way you can use your 2 best DACs as well, rather than 16 affordable ones. A fully automated analog console also makes sense, for other reasons.