Outboard vs Plug-ins

[max cooper]

I guess I have a pretty vague understanding of how a plug-in is modelled after a piece of outboard. Is this done by analyzing white/pink noise, or by writing algorithms? If anyone can toss out a real layman's term explanation in a minute of two, I'd really appreciate it.

I got to thinking about the BF 1176 and how if I'd never used the real thing, only the plug, I'd think "1176? useless!" (opinion only here). Some of the emulations are nice, some aren't anything like the original, and some are dull and boring. I've never mixed on an Oxford, but I love the Ox Dynamics.

I really need to get a few plug-ins (I mix ITB), but I just like a new piece of outboard so much! I have a Distressor and a pair of 525's and they'll retain their value, plug-ins, I'll pay for the use of the processing. Period.

[Ruudman]

I don't know much about algo's, either...

But I know this:

*I don't own a lot of outboard
*I don't have a lot of money
*I'd like plugs, which I have plenty of, to be as good or better,

but analog is the shit 9 out of 10.
My Orban 642 beats my Oxford EQ plug, my Boss DM-100 delay
rocks the Echo Farm and so on. Mid-level outboard fights high-end
digital, and IMO wins. For now.


ruudman

[RoundBadge]

When I run out of outboard options I usually find the URS, UA comps and oxford stuff to be the least offensive.still if I have more I/O,outboard wins every time..

[Chrisac]

I hav tried it all. Mixed with a DAW all channels or most channels direct to the console, mixed with outboard plugged direct to the interface (minus the console)

I came to the conclusion for me at least it was all or nothing

I love, and have used a lot of outboard stuff and theres no doubt for the moment that most outboard is better than Plugs (in my opinon.) Bit I decided it was just to much hassle all this mixing, matching, and pondering, so I now work exlusively ITB.

I still miss the tactile feel of a console and real knobs but my mixes are improving ITB. Well, their sounding pretty much the same as every other mix I here out there. Slighltly cold, but in yer face, and I cant deny Im beginning to like the sound of ITB mixes. At one point I even nearly bought a 2" in machine. quite stupid really as this would have simply defeated the purpose of total recall (obviously), not to mention the tape costs, and maintaing the the thing, and lastly adding hours upon ours transferring stuff back and forth between my DAW and my tape machine...Not to mention the extra 5 billion cables and patchbay I would have needed......Much to $$$$ for me. But I nearly did it..

For a time I was obsessed with warmth, and I had every so called warming up plug I could afford + a rackload of outboard to make my 24 bit clean and shiny soundfiles sound like a late 80's 2" Studer. Eventually I realized It was all rather pointless and becoming more expensive than I ever dreamed.

I noticed a comment that Dave made in the guest moderator forum

"Warmth is another name for dullness"

I couldnt agree more.

[Gerax]

For the most part outboard gear is still unbeatable, after all plug ins are emulation, and no matter how close they can get, the real thing will remain that.

That said it's obvious that plug in with total recall automation and the ability to be used on a virtually infinite number of tracks (just in case you aren't Allen Sides at Ocean way I doubt anybody here has a wall of Pultecs or 1176s or LA2As...) makes them handy.

I found that the addition of real outboard reverbs in my ITB mixes already made a difference (I could use rlug in reverbs, but once I plugged an Eventide Eclipse or Lexicon digitally hooked to the DAW there was no turning back), and I'm adding a few more toys where the money channels are, for the rest some good plugs like Waves, BF or URS usually do the trick.

Yes, mixing on the old analog Trident board I grew up on really took less time and effort to get good sounding mixes, and having a decent wall of outboard gear made the mixing process even easier, but that was not my studio, and for mine I have to make do with what I can afford at the moment...eventually there will come a time when sending a signal out the DAW to and outboard comp and back wont cause latency and outboard toys will be a bit less expensive (or I will be wealthier).

Right now a pair of Distressors, a Fatso and an SSL FGX384 would be really handy...

L.G.

[Chrisac]

Originally posted by Gerax
.eventually there will come a time when sending a signal out the DAW to and outboard comp and back wont cause latency
L.G.

That time is here now. Cubase SX3 has it implemented. Pro Tools should have had this years ago imo.

[dns]

Digital does what I want: if I add hights with a linear phase eq it will add hights - and this sounds a little bit better than at least the most analog EQs. If I want the phase beeing shifted, I can do it with an analog style digital EQ - just using it a little.
Limiters are better digital and there are some good one for the PC.

For the rest I found working stuff, although highend outboard Equipment might be a bit better, it wouldn't be total recall, fit in my workflow and in my budget.
Just one big problem is left:

Adding harmonics is really important for a fat sound - I don't know a plug in doing this in a way I want. Antares tube is good, but it`s only a tubesimulation. The rest I know does not even ofer a clear transistor distortion. Does anyone knows what to do there?

[dave-G]

Originally posted by Chrisac
That time is here now. Cubase SX3 has it implemented. Pro Tools should have had this years ago imo.

PT 6.4 has full auto delay compensation available. It's a relief.

FWIW, I still routinely use outboard comps, eqs and verbs while mixing ITB.. it's not hard at all.. with 6.4's input mode per channel, you can simply listen through the channels that you'll eventually print the processed track to when the mix is finished.. Recall is then no problem at all -- it's printed to the track, and digital pics of compressor and eq settings get stored with the session just in case.

Plug-ins and plug-outs are both welcome!
-dave

[Chrisac]

Originally posted by dave-G
PT 6.4 has full auto delay compensation available. It's a relief.

FWIW, I still routinely use outboard comps, eqs and verbs while mixing ITB.. it's not hard at all.. with 6.4's input mode per channel, you can simply listen through the channels that you'll eventually print the processed track to when the mix is finished.. Recall is then no problem at all -- it's printed to the track, and digital pics of compressor and eq settings get stored with the session just in case.

Plug-ins and plug-outs are both welcome!
-dave

I was aware that PT's has ADC now. I gave up on PT's just before it was implemented and I understand the frustrations.

Im not sure PT's compensates for external FX yet? But I never really saw it as a huge problem.

Im now using a native system and the only thing that is terrible is using external FX and synths. With SX3 now compensating for this the rest will follow and about time to

[Gerax]

Speaking of using outboard dynamics: do you feel that the round trip D/A > Outboard> A/D imparts a noticeable difference in sound quality? I know it depends on the quality of the ADA, but given a decent quality converter is it a thing that the outboard processing is capable to compensate (if you send a signal in a comp or EQ it rarely comes out the same even with no processing applied), if you know whet I mean?

I'm planning to get a 002Rack and I'd like to use some outboard units for those channels that need special attention: are those analog I/O usable or it's wiser to invest in better converters (please nobody yell at me )?

L.G.

[DrDeltaM]

Good point Gerax, where is the border that plugins win over outboard with low-end convertors? This can be tricky. It also depends if it's on single tracks you insert some outboard gear, or say a compressor on the master bus. In the last case i can imagine that the 'impact' of the convertors is bigger for the sound, then in the case of individual tracks. Also depends rather a bit on what outboard gear.

[Gerax]

You got it.

Definitely on the Master Buss a good quality converter is mandatory if I'm to feed my whole mix thru it and thru a compressor; I'd like to have some feedback from PT users (or DAW for that matter) using outboard dynamics and how they deal with ADA issues (latency not included since most have ADC or the old track slipping).

Is this actually doable and the benefit you get from the use of a quality harware dynamic unit overcomes the ADA loss, or is it too much of a compromise?

Thanx

L.G.

[dave-G]

Originally posted by Gerax
Is this actually doable and the benefit you get from the use of a quality harware dynamic unit overcomes the ADA loss, or is it too much of a compromise?

It depends on the outboard you're using, and on your tastes. I have no familiarity with the 002, and I don't know what dyamic units you're using. You'll need to try it yourself and see what you think.

For what it's worth, I used to use outboard gear strapped in and out of PT with the old 888|24 converters. Even though those weren't the greatest converters, I thought it was worth the 'trip' ... On some things, at least. ie: Running bass guitar out to a BA6A yielded more of the sound of the BA6A than the sound of the converter, and I was happy.

-dave

[Gerax]

Thanx dave

that was just about the kind of info I was seeking, if it was good for you using an "old" 888|24 maybe it should be worth to use the single I/O of the 002R to cover the same task (Digidesign claims those are even better than the stock 888|24's), and get some good outboard.

Cheers

L.G.