Delay Compensation in Pro Tools - FREE Video Tutorials!

[peeder]

So I've been meaning to do this forever and I had a swarm of very snotty ProTools HD shills try to poke at my insistent use of Pro Tools LE earlier today. They were hooting about how I did manual insert delay compensation, claiming that real professionals with real clients who pay real money wouldn't stand for such a truly declasse chore.

But I have the last laugh as usual, because my knowledge of manual delay compensation comes in very handy on ANY DAW including those that tout automatic delay compensation. PTHD's compensator is quite problematic, and far from the state-of-the-art that is found (via automated pings) in some obscure Windows DAWs.

...And you can have this knowledge too, for free! You just have to sit and endure me explaining it to you in the following half hour or so of Quicktime video tutorials. While focused on Pro Tools LE (or M-Powered), it should also be of interest to PTHD people, and even those lost souls on other DAWs who have open minds.

MDC01-Introduction

MDC02-TrackCompensation

MDC03-ParallelEffects

MDC04-HardwareInserts

MDC05-NullingMethod

MDC06-MasterBus

MDC07-NudgingMethod

Those real clients will want really perfect delay compensation for their really thick stacks of cash!

[sardi]

Is there a MDC06 or is MDC07 just labelled incorrectly?

Good idea btw. I don't really have a great deal of issues re: PDC in Pro Tools - I know my way around it. Still wish they implemented a good PDC solution though.

Im sure a fair few people will find benefit in the vids.

[peeder]

MDC06 is up now.

BTW, these tutorials also go into some detail about "Record to Disk" which is an easier workflow, but does NOT have any sonic difference from "Bounce to Disk."

(Oh yeah, and sorry I didn't make sure the codec worked well with the piano sound, which sounds pretty awful in the video. The codec worked well on the voice which is most of it. But uncompressed audio these files would be tons bigger...)

[Blast9]

You beauty St Peeder - this has saved me from bothering you via PM for a tutorial!



EDIT - possible to make it downloadable? Playback is very broken-up here

[peeder]

I don't know how to download these other than with QuickTime Pro. The little menu on the bottom right corner of the movie, Save As Quicktime Movie. QuickTime Pro I got with Logic Studio, but it's not that costly on its own, and it's very handy I find.

Sorry if my video host is lame...do you have a better one? If I run out of bandwidth from the mass crush of Pro Toolers I will pay up for more I guess...

[Blast9]

Hey - I'm not soo sure its your host - I think its my connection!

[Digitar]

Peeder,

My compliments to the chef. Nudge,Nudge say no more!

By the way, I couldn't get 03 or 06 to play on my rig. It's probably me.

Thanks for the info.

Digitar

[Achim L]

You can download them when you go one folder back (peeder > tutorials), there is an itunes button in the upper right corner. click on the itunes button. Then you will see the files either as RSS feeds or as .mov.

Thank you for doing this peeder, I´m on HD but will take a look into your method.

Greetz Achim

[Blast9]

oar-some! Thanks very much

[Benmrx]

Another thanks for taking the time to make the vids.

Gotta say, I didn't know that PT Master tracks could work that way. I would have set up another Aux track. Very nice to know.

Here's a question for ya. What converters are you using for your "effects" sends/returns. I was extremely surprised that you were able to get a 100% phase cancellation there.

[computa]

A 7 part series on manual delay compensation in protools LE when every other DAW program in the world does this automatically for years??

Digi needs to buck up and add adc to LE. This is 2008.

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by computa

A 7 part series on manual delay compensation in protools LE when every other DAW program in the world does this automatically for years??

Digi needs to buck up and add adc to LE. This is 2008.

Cubase is really the only Native DAW out there that has true Plug In Delay Compensation that is reliable. Logic and DP both are inconsistent.

[computa]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

Cubase is really the only Native DAW out there that has true Plug In Delay Compensation that is reliable. Logic and DP both are inconsistent.

Nuendo, Samplitude r spot on and automatic when tracking or mixing. For logic turn on adc when mixing, not tracking just like pt HD. Never used dp and hear reaper, sonar, SAW, and audition adc work fine.

fact is its 2008, LE should have it.

[hobson]

Peeder,

just finished watching all of your tutorials - kudos - brilliant!!

this explains things so well and demonstrates the issues very plainly... what many times on this forum has boiled down to incoherent static is now very sonorous.

i'm excited to implement this knowledge on sessions now - before this, it had been sorta hit and miss - the nulling is the key.

thanks!
Hobson

[soundrick]

Peeder, you are a gentleman!

Thanks for your time. thumbsup

[bdmctear]

Okay,

Seems like you might have the answer. About a two years ago when I was trying to figure out my own method of delay compensation for outboard Parallel bus compression, I got stopped in my tracks when I realized that listening to a return via an Aux In track sounded different (and infinitely better) than listening to the same return via a track put into record mode.

I say I got stopped in my tracks because I intended to use Aux In tracks until the point at which I knew I was finished and I could then print my outboard. I would print a parallel drum bus then use gear from the outboard chain on something else. I kept finding the drum bus sounded different after it was recorded. Still haven't found out why!!!!

By the way, really informative videos. Thank you!

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Here's a question for ya. What converters are you using for your "effects" sends/returns. I was extremely surprised that you were able to get a 100% phase cancellation there.

^^^ i'm curious about this as well.

with a large, multi-track mix, it'll make more sense to nudge the late tracks forward, otherwise adding multiple instances of Time-Adjuster would be a nightmare.

plus, it's rare that a mix will have only 1 reverb aux; with different verbs like AltiVerb and TL Space, to adjust and calculate how much compensation for differing dly could be a potential head-ache.

i do appreciate the ping-method, made my life easier to compensate outboard (as opposed to null method). btw, IMO it's better to have the ping in the beginning of the regions, so the ping won't interfere with say a reverb tail. just remember to cut and mute the outboard'd ping region.

[pressurepoint]

Is there any way to save these to disk? I cant seem to do so..
Would love to watch these offline as its something I'm trying to get right myself...

[Alxi]

This was actually the thing that kept me from using Protools M-Powered... Delay Compensation... Now i guess i have no reason to not use it

Thanks a million

-Alxi aka Scotty Beamus-

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by pressurepoint

Is there any way to save these to disk? I cant seem to do so..
Would love to watch these offline as its something I'm trying to get right myself...

Yes, I managed to do it with this method:

Originally Posted by ali48343

You can download them when you go one folder back (peeder > tutorials), there is an itunes button in the upper right corner. click on the itunes button. Then you will see the files either as RSS feeds or as .mov.

Thank you for doing this peeder, I´m on HD but will take a look into your method.

Greetz Achim

[ryst]

Originally Posted by theblotted

^^^ i'm curious about this as well.

with a large, multi-track mix, it'll make more sense to nudge the late tracks forward, otherwise adding multiple instances of Time-Adjuster would be a nightmare.

I have a template that includes the time adjuster plug on every track....saves a lot of time.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by ryst

I have a template that includes the time adjuster plug on every track....saves a lot of time.

but this doesn't solve multiple aux w/ differing dly's, while certain tracks going into each aux's.

e.g. Altiverb on Aux 1, TL Space on Aux 2, Vintage Warmer on Aux 3, etc... Snare on Aux 1 & 2, Kick on 2 & 3, Bass on only 3, so forth.

still makes more sense to me to nudge affected tracks forward than moving non-affected tracks later. the logic is non-affected tracks will usually be more than affected tracks. why deal with more numbers than what you have to?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by theblotted

but this doesn't solve multiple aux w/ differing dly's, while certain tracks going into each aux's.

e.g. Altiverb on Aux 1, TL Space on Aux 2, Vintage Warmer on Aux 3, etc... Snare on Aux 1 & 2, Kick on 2 & 3, Bass on only 3, so forth.

still makes more sense to me to nudge affected tracks forward than moving non-affected tracks later. the logic is non-affected tracks will usually be more than affected tracks. why deal with more numbers than what you have to?

That actually will not work in most situations. You need to compensate the tracks wrt each other, and then you need to compensate the busses wrt each other. It is mathematically impossible to do this in most real-world situations of any complexity via nudging the source regions earlier or later in time. In addition to the warnings about this extremely risky approach I give in MDC07!

Holding down the option key can put a TimeAdjuster at Insert 5 (or insert 1, etc.) of every track. Option and shift will just put them in the selected tracks. Careful, this will overwrite any other plugins on those inserts! (And it isn't undoable... ). You can save TimeAdjuster presets for your most common delay times. However, I do not recommend relying blindly on charts or cheat sheets for delay times!

Thanks everyone for your kind words of support. I've had to buy more bandwidth to service all the interest! (Happy to do so anyway.)

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by peeder

That actually will not work in most situations. You need to compensate the tracks wrt each other, and then you need to compensate the busses wrt each other. It is mathematically impossible to do this in most real-world situations of any complexity via nudging the source regions earlier or later in time. In addition to the warnings about this extremely risky approach I give in MDC07!

Holding down the option key can put a TimeAdjuster at Insert 5 (or insert 1, etc.) of every track. Option and shift will just put them in the selected tracks. Careful, this will overwrite any other plugins on those inserts! (And it isn't undoable... ). You can save TimeAdjuster presets for your most common delay times. However, I do not recommend relying blindly on charts or cheat sheets for delay times!

Thanks everyone for your kind words of support. I've had to buy more bandwidth to service all the interest! (Happy to do so anyway.)

i still stand by the nudge the track back method.

compensating the track itself is not a problem, neither is compensating for bus. since plugin's are usually added one at a time any way, so it's one either track or bus, never both at the same time. i don't exactly know what "mathematical impossibility" you are referring to.

and your approach in video 07 is actually more risky. first of all, you mentioned change in delay... why would the delay change when using plugin inserts? delay changes only make sense when it's converter latency. even then, once printed, nudging it perfect sync and you're off the hook from changing delays.

also, you'll "skate on thin ice" more if you're [time] adjusting more tracks than nudging 1 track at a time. there's more room for error naturally. also, yes you can use "Option" to insert multiple instances of Time-Adjuster, but you cannot adjust them all at the same time... at least not that i know of. quickest prolly is saving it as a preset... but you gotta do that everytime? ugh.

lastly, i'm surprised that you didn't use the ping method to align the outboard return accurately in the video. while i'm thankful that you're showing these methods, you could've also shorten the videos (and thus bandwidth you paid for) by doing so. i know, it's part of "eduactional video".

anyways getting back on track - what i do is i duplicate the track using New Take, so at least i'll always have the original position to refer to. then when nudging, i write down in the comments field how much nudging occured (e.g., "n-64"); this way i'm always keeping track of how much and where. obviously outboard return doesn't need to be indicated since it needs to come back perfect sync anyway.

by not using multiple instances of Time-Adjuster, i gain:
1) less chance of error
2) another insert slot if i need it
3) less confusing math work in the "dly" field (doesn't combination of different insert plugins and Time Adjuster throw you off; thus forcing you to do more math?)


btw, by using "Option - H", i could nudge the tracks much faster than dragging and aiming.

[peeder]

Let's say I send to two reverbs in parallel, which I nearly always do, and the two reverbs have different latencies (say, my outboard and my plugin verb). How is nudging regions going to solve that problem, if I send any of the tracks to both reverbs at once (which I again nearly always do)?

Think upon that and please, post when the lightbulb comes on upstairs, so the other users know that even you realize it just don't work. tutt

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by peeder

Let's say I send to two reverbs in parallel, which I nearly always do, and the two reverbs have different latencies (say, my outboard and my plugin verb). How is nudging regions going to solve that problem, if I send any of the tracks to both reverbs at once (which I again nearly always do)?

Think upon that and please, post when the lightbulb comes on upstairs, so the other users know that even you realize it just don't work. tutt

i do this all the time.

here's your answer:

-print the outboard verb, nudge the printed track with a ping in the front so it'll be compensated.
-then nudge the plugin reverb'd tracks.

like you mentioned in the video's, reverb is a bit more forgiving b/c of predelay. thankfully i only use TL Space as reverb plugin (all others being outboard), which only has 1 sample of delay, so i haven't had to compensate that.

...and so how is using Time Adjuster on all the other tracks any easier??

the big question here is actually: if say you got different reverbs on different Aux's with different dly's, and multiple tracks are sent to either Aux's. what do you do in this case? do you Time-Adjust all the other tracks accordingly? there must be a point where you actually adjust the actual affected track...

i think both of our methods are still bottlenecked by the question above; it's just which way is relatively easier and less prone to mistakes.


(btw, just so you know that i learned the delay compensation thing from reading your posts in the past couple years peeder; i'm playing the devil's advocate here regarding which is a better method for compensation.)

[ryst]

Originally Posted by peeder

That actually will not work in most situations. You need to compensate the tracks wrt each other, and then you need to compensate the busses wrt each other. It is mathematically impossible to do this in most real-world situations of any complexity via nudging the source regions earlier or later in time. In addition to the warnings about this extremely risky approach I give in MDC07!

Holding down the option key can put a TimeAdjuster at Insert 5 (or insert 1, etc.) of every track. Option and shift will just put them in the selected tracks. Careful, this will overwrite any other plugins on those inserts! (And it isn't undoable... ). You can save TimeAdjuster presets for your most common delay times. However, I do not recommend relying blindly on charts or cheat sheets for delay times!

Thanks everyone for your kind words of support. I've had to buy more bandwidth to service all the interest! (Happy to do so anyway.)

That's the template I created. EVERY track in my template (busses, auxes, and audio tracks) has the TA plug on the 5th insert. I make sure all my audio tracks are lined up with each other, then all my busses get lined up with each other. It really doesn't take me much time to do this at all.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by theblotted

i do this all the time.

here's your answer:

-print the outboard verb, nudge the printed track with a ping in the front so it'll be compensated.
-then nudge the plugin reverb'd tracks.

It took me a while to wrap my head around just how bad an idea that is.

First of all, you won't be able to adjust your reverb or other parallel effect (whether latent ITB or outboard) in realtime. you will be hearing it back with an echo effect or excessive predelay, just as I demonstrate in MDC05.

Furthermore, that approach takes all the time for a whole pass of the entire song to be printed, and then nudged back in time.

But it gets worse...you then can't make ANY changes to your mix at all without having to go back and redo all of that.

That is a complete non-starter in practice. tutt MDC05 demonstrates how quick the nulling approach is in practice...and I'm doing it really REALLY slow to demonstrate how it works.

he big question here is actually: if say you got different reverbs on different Aux's with different dly's, and multiple tracks are sent to either Aux's. what do you do in this case? do you Time-Adjust all the other tracks accordingly? there must be a point where you actually adjust the actual affected track...

You compensate each of the printed audio tracks with regard to each other. You route them all through a "Dry" bypass bus. Then you compensate the dry bus wrt all the parallel returns, and all of those wrt each other.

So let's say your maximum dly of any audio track is 1024. You make sure each audio track plays back at that maximum delay time of 1024, as demonstrated in MDC02. Then let's say your maximum dly of any parallel return is 4128. You make sure all the parallel returns and the Dry bus all have a dly of 4128, as demonstrated in MDC03 and MDC05.

You could compensate the audio tracks wrt each other using nudging, but as I say, DON'T DO IT! What if you decide to remove a plugin and now your total dly is shorter than it was. You're going to have to renudge everything (but to where? )! Furthermore, your automation rides and your region locations might start to drift, if you use multiple playlists trying to protect yourself from tragedy. Etc.

It's just not the right way to do this. Time Adjuster is MANDATORY for parallel bus compensation, and it's HIGHLY ADVISED for audio tracks too, unless you take the approach (which I often do) of just making sure every audio track has plugins with the same amount of total delay. For instance, when using Liquid Mix I will often have one of those on every audio track, and if there are tracks I can't, I will use a Time Adjuster in their stead set to the current Latency which the plugin reports in its About screen.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by ryst

That's the template I created. EVERY track in my template (busses, auxes, and audio tracks) has the TA plug on the 5th insert. I make sure all my audio tracks are lined up with each other, then all my busses get lined up with each other. It really doesn't take me much time to do this at all.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by peeder

It took me a while to wrap my head around just how bad an idea that is.

First of all, you won't be able to adjust your reverb or other parallel effect (whether latent ITB or outboard) in realtime. you will be hearing it back with an echo effect or excessive predelay, just as I demonstrate in MDC05.

Furthermore, that approach takes all the time for a whole pass of the entire song to be printed, and then nudged back in time.

But it gets worse...you then can't make ANY changes to your mix at all without having to go back and redo all of that.

That is a complete non-starter in practice. tutt MDC05 demonstrates how quick the nulling approach is in practice...and I'm doing it really REALLY slow to demonstrate how it works.

actually, using PTMP w/ FW1814, at times i get outboard bounce that is BEFORE the ping. not sure why this happens, but it's there. altho i only use 1814 as a dongle/ADAT pipe to my Lavry Blue and FF800, perhaps there's the culprit. i've asked M-Audio about this, and they have no clue what i'm talking about.

but yes, it's not ideal: i can't do realtime effect. but neither can anybody, because PTLE/MP's outboard trip delay actually CHANGES... even within the same session. so even if you Time-Adjust, the delay changes... so what's the point? i much rather print it and not have the delay change on me. sounds like using TA for outboard is more risky if you ask me.

sure, it'll take a whole pass, but that comes with the territory. like you, i rather have EXACT compensation.

thankfully i usually put reverb effects till end of mix time, after all the EQ and comp treatment. and i don't mind committing to printing. if i need to reprint again, no big deal; do the changes, the reprint. yes, i'm aware that it takes longer.... until i can save up for a PTHD.

i don't usually do parallel comp, and even if i do it's ITB; so it's compensated for and i can still make changes.

see, it's not exactly "impossible" as you posted.

Originally Posted by peeder

You compensate each of the printed audio tracks with regard to each other. You route them all through a "Dry" bypass bus. Then you compensate the dry bus wrt all the parallel returns, and all of those wrt each other.

So let's say your maximum dly of any audio track is 1024. You make sure each audio track plays back at that maximum delay time of 1024, as demonstrated in MDC02. Then let's say your maximum dly of any parallel return is 4128. You make sure all the parallel returns and the Dry bus all have a dly of 4128, as demonstrated in MDC03 and MDC05.

You could compensate the audio tracks wrt each other using nudging, but as I say, DON'T DO IT! What if you decide to remove a plugin and now your total dly is shorter than it was. You're going to have to renudge everything (but to where? )! Furthermore, your automation rides and your region locations might start to drift, if you use multiple playlists trying to protect yourself from tragedy. Etc.

It's just not the right way to do this. Time Adjuster is MANDATORY for parallel bus compensation, and it's HIGHLY ADVISED for audio tracks too, unless you take the approach (which I often do) of just making sure every audio track has plugins with the same amount of total delay. For instance, when using Liquid Mix I will often have one of those on every audio track, and if there are tracks I can't, I will use a Time Adjuster in their stead set to the current Latency which the plugin reports in its About screen.

about removing a plugin, just nudge the region back to however many dly it was, or use the original region from playlist if you forgot already... (all it takes is put the removed plugin back on to see how much dly it was....)

where to renudge to? back to where it was... i can see how you get confused easily already with all the Time Adjusting you gotta do.

the "drifting" automation rides can be an issue if you are nudging 4128 samples. i can't see myself doing automation at the sample level... and with my method i haven't had to nudge anything over 64 samples. and i guess it's just another workflow difference, i don't use plugins with that huge delays, and i don't do automation rides until end of mix time.

i'm still surprised that you don't use a calculator when you "make sure all the parallel returns and the Dry bus all have a dly of 4128"...

-------------------

i can see that it's MANDATORY for you... but i guess it really comes down to workflow and how you compensate for it (pun).