Sonic Timeworks made the best reverb I've heard in a computer.

[alfonso]

The Sonic Timeworks P100 plate reverb for Creamware Scope systems.
It's very demanding, but is the best reverb I've ever heard in a digital environment.

http://sonictimeworks.com/p_100.php

it's simply superb. I'm absolutely curious to hear what do you Scopers think, there is a demo available.
I bought it , and still don't believe my ears, and when I compare what I spent with the price of some other stuff around.....

Sonic Timeworks has some real kicking developers recently!


http://www.relab.dk/platemain.jpg
http://www.relab.dk/platealgo.jpg
http://www.relab.dk/platereverb.jpg
http://www.relab.dk/platesetup.jpg

[Broken]

I got to try this on my friends Pulsar system. It's very hard to tell the difference between this and my 90.

I might buy a Pulsar I like the minmoog emulation as well. thumbsup

[Jesse Skeens]

Did you do a side by side test? I'm pretty close to buying it too. I had a pcm80 and for some reason this P100 doesnt seem to sound like it. But maybe the 80 and 90 were much different sounding than I would think.

Jesse

[manning1]

some others to try.
some folks really like the free SIR reverb that uses impulses.
- check out noisevault.com sometime.
others a product called ambience i believe its called.
i'm also interested in this issue. of the best software reverb.
i find with some tweaking the ones in powertracks and magix music studio - multitrack software i like and use all the time -
are pretty good.
a trick i'll pass on. what i do is take a dry track , duplicate it on another track. then add the revb/and or echo in slight amounts
then push this effected track forward in time by a few milliseconds. the object editor in magix music studio lets me do this easily either in terms of samples or milliseconds. its a really neat feature. then i play around with panning and level to get what i'm after.

[jtienhaara]

I have to agree with Alfonso. The Sonic TimeWorks P-100 plate verb is freakin' phenomenal. For $99 you should NOT miss out on this!

Originally posted by Jesse Skeens
I had a pcm80 and for some reason this P100 doesnt seem to sound like it.

Jesse if you want to send me a track or 2 and your fave PCM 80 settings, I'd be happy to A/B the P-100 and the PCM 80 for you. PM or email me jtienhaara AT yahoo DOT com if you're interested.

Keep in mind that the P-100 is a plate reverb. The PCM 80 has various verb algorithms, plus the multiFX algos (chorus, delay and what-not). So the Lexicon will be more versatile. But the P-100 sounds huge and lush, and bang-for-your-buck it's a steal.

Cheers,

Johann

[Jesse Skeens]

Johann,

Thanks for the offer. Do you happen to have the 80 or 90? I sold mine so I don't have one to compare to. I thought about comparing the P-100 to some impulses of the 90 which I have. When I did have the 80 I compared it to impulses and they were close enough that I decided to sell it. I know that impulses won't have the modulation part of the effect but for some purposes this is fine.

That being said I do like what those modulations can do to a verb (when say modulation I just mean something thats not static, not necessarily chorus etc...)

Jesse

[jtienhaara]

Hi Jesse.

I have the PCM 80 outboard. Out of curiosity, what software are you using to emulate the 90?

I agree that a multi-effects / reverb unit can do wonderful things to sound. CreamWare does give you that ability. The problem is that there are no presets -- you have to add EQ or modulation or delay etc yourself.

Still I am impressed at the sound of the P-100. Right out of the box I would put it on drums or guitar.

For whatever it's worth, I like most of the stock CW plugins but I can't stand the verbs. They are "desert reverbs" in my books.

The P-100 isn't 1:1 comparable to a PCM 80 / 90, but it is still a "rainforest plate" verb in my opinion. I would put it on par with some PCM 80 algorithms; and I would use it before I turned on my Roland DEP-5 or Yamaha SPX-900 (both of which I love for certain tasks).

Anyway I'm not sure if you already have the P-100, but regardless I'm happy to do the A/B if you like.

If you have used it, though, I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,

Johann

[Kamurah]

I bought the P-100.....

I think it is a FANTASTIC reverb. Really...the best software reverb I have heard yet.

I'm a big fan of the Creamware system...and products like this just re-affirm my affection for this platform. I wish more people (esp composers) would give CW a look/listen.

Cheers

[Jesse Skeens]

Johann,

If you wouldnt mind sending something like a snare drum or vocal snippet through a few presets on the 80 and P-100 that would be great.

Jesse

[jtienhaara]

Hi Jesse.

Sorry for the delay. I got a chance to do a *very informal* A/B of the PCM-80 plate settings vs. the STW P-100 verb tonight. I did a guitar segment (not vox or snare), hope that's OK.

Now I've got a bunch of short WAVs in a ZIP file that is 60 megabytes... I'd be happy to post that file to my website, or I could mail you a CD, or convert to MP3s, or... What do you think? What would be your preference?

(If anyone else is interested in hearing the A/B, drop me an email jtienhaara AT yahoo DOT com, or send me a PM, and let me know what format you'd prefer.)

Cheers Jesse,

Johann

[laser]

Originally posted by Kamurah
I bought the P-100.....

I think it is a FANTASTIC reverb. Really...the best software reverb I have heard yet.

I'm a big fan of the Creamware system...and products like this just re-affirm my affection for this platform. I wish more people (esp composers) would give CW a look/listen.

Cheers

About the CW system:
1) I've heard alarming stories about it not being very user friendly--major compatibility issues and limited support/poor manual.
2) the same people who have said the above also say some of the Vinco plugs are pretty impressive, especially the compressor.
3) Certainly wouldn't mind having an in-the-box transient designer, if it's performs as well as the outboard box.

Since you have the system (or are a fan and want to get the system), can you give us a better perspective on any/all of the three things above? Maybe a re-education is in order.

Thanks.

Laser

[Kamurah]

Well...
The system itself is pretty easily installed on most PC's. I ran it for a year on a Dell P3 800 box that I bought off ebay for 200.00.

The compatibility issues (IMO) come from when you integrate the system with another DAW via ASIO. I went through a few "trials" trying to get it to play nice with Cubase. (I am convinced this was a Cubase issue and NOT a CW issue....Steinberg software has some "quirks" that made me nervous) It runs perfectly fine now, I just prefer the Logic workflow.

Right now I use it standalone (it has its own software for routing) via lightpipe into Logic. I have never had the SFP software (the sw that runs the CW cards) crash.

Limited support from Creamware is probably accurate.....however....if you hang out at the PlanetZ website, you can always get help. Big community. Never really met anyone who had a problem (physically) with the system, so I cannot comment on CW's tech dept.

No. 2: Haven't tried Vinco or Transient Designer. Vinco is a 1176 model, and the TD obviously does what the outboard box does. But there are plenty of people on the PlanetZ website that have (www.PlanetZ.com). That site is the main user base...you could ask them there.

IMO, the main strengths of the system are 1)its routing capabilities - which really go beyond anything else out right now....and 2) the synthesizers and effects- which sound phenomenal.

If you have more specific ??? I'll be happy to oblige. If you have a dealer nearby, I encourage you to go get a demo.

Cheers

[jtienhaara]

I agree with Kamurah 100%.

For anyone who's considering a system, PlanetZ is a great place to ask "what setups cause problems with CreamWare?". Or just search the forums. If I'm not mistaken, HyperThreading is one of those iffy areas. Via chipsets used to be a big problem area too. And the new PCI Express bus is not (yet) supported. The other issues tend to be specific to each user's needs.

My $0.02 on a couple of items --


1) I've been using Nuendo, Logic and Vegas on a P4 with CreamWare since 2001. At this point I'm using 3 CW cards, and by far the most stable component in my DAW is still CreamWare.


2) Support -- I had an hour long conversation with a CW support rep last summer. This summer I called support on a national statutory holiday, expecting to get voice mail. But support picked up the phone and helped me out. Since that fateful day in 2001 when I first called them to ask whether a CW system would do what I wanted, they have always been good to me. The trick is just to pick up the damned phone! Email is much less effective.

I think dealers started spreading the word about "lack of CreamWare support" in response to market conditions around 2001-2002. That's when CW cards disappeared from Canadian retailers. Coincidentally Digidesign really soared at the same time. Now I'm not saying that Digidesign pampered their dealers or gave them lots of all-expense-paid training sessions or anything. But for whatever reason, dealers decided to band together and sideline CW from the professional DAW market. In 2002 when I was looking for a Canadian CW dealer, 2 of them told me they gave up because of "lack of support" issues -- a line which I have never believed.

Oh, and FWIW I ended up going to Shawn at Infinite Vortex, a very friendly, knowledgeable, helpful (and cheap!) CreamWare dealer.


3) Vinco -- it really doesn't sound like the 1176, but it does behave like it. It sounds much more transparent, and is a little more flexible. The outboard 1176 adds a lot of colour, which can be good or bad, depending on your politics and the task at hand.

I do love me some Vinco though. A lot of folks think the outboard 1176 is infinitely versatile, but personally I hate it on drums. For my money Vinco is great on kick, snare and toms, not to mention the other instruments 1176 is good at (bass, vox especially).

Cheers,

Johann

[Jesse Skeens]

Johann,

I'd be happy to download them from your site if thats ok.

Jesse

[Jesse Skeens]

Originally posted by laser
About the CW system:
1) I've heard alarming stories about it not being very user friendly--major compatibility issues and limited support/poor manual.
2) the same people who have said the above also say some of the Vinco plugs are pretty impressive, especially the compressor.
3) Certainly wouldn't mind having an in-the-box transient designer, if it's performs as well as the outboard box.

Since you have the system (or are a fan and want to get the system), can you give us a better perspective on any/all of the three things above? Maybe a re-education is in order.

Thanks.

Laser

No compatibility problems here, runs like a champ. I dont use the plugs within a DAW though (I don't know many who do). I pipe stuff in and out of the SCOPE software using its amazing routing (which exteneds to the midi sitr as well). Other than that though the ASIO drivers work great for me when in a DAW.

Vinco is not a line of plugins, its a single compressor. I a/b'd it with my dbx 160sl blue and sold it the next week, its amazing.
Same with their filter plug, Interpole, sold my mutator quickly after. I beta tested their Arp as I have a MKIII here and its extremely close. I own the Attacker which is the attack portion of the TD but I don't use it a whole lot as I'm normally trying to smooth out my drums now, not add even more attack. But it is useful sometimes.

Jesse

[jtienhaara]

My humble apologies for taking so long.

Here is the (very informal) shootout:

Sonic TimeWorks P-100 and Lexicon PCM-80 shootout

It is a 30 megabyte ZIP file with 16-bit WAVs inside (I dithered down the original 24 bit ones to cut the overall size of the ZIP in half).

Here's what I did: I stepped through the PCM-80's plate reverbs (with the exception of P3-3.5-Wobble Plate, which is probably doable with some patience). For each PCM-80 setting I found the closest P-100 preset that I could for the comparison. For the most part I didn't modify the P-100 settings, except where there was a glaring difference (and as noted below).

Sound-wise you'll hear slight differences between the Lexicon and the STW. However quality-wise I think they're comparable sonically. And interface-wise I would rather use the P-100 any day. The interface is quite easy to use, and very very powerful.

Test 1:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 0.6 Tiled Room
P-100: Preset 4 Small Bright Plate

Test 2:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.2 Vox Plate
P-100: Preset 3 Drum Plate

Test 3:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.3 Good ol Plate
P-100: Preset 2 Warm Plate

Test 4:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.4 Slap Plate
P-100: Preset 0 Vocal Plate
Dly Lvl L: -5.7 dB
Dly Lvl R: -5.7 dB
F.Back L: 25%
F.Back R: 24%

Test 5:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.5 Brass Plate
P-100: Preset 3 Drum Plate

Test 6:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.6 Drum Plate
P-100: Preset 3 Drum Plate
Size = 6.6m

Test 7:
PCM-80: Preset P3 / 1.7 Rich Plate
P-100: Preset 2 Warm Plate

By all means let me know what you think. I would be happy to tweak a particular preset or 2 in the P-100 if you'd like. I can also run a few samples of yours through the P-100 if you'd like. Just let me know.

Hope this helps anyone else who is considering the P-100, too!

Cheers,

Johann

[Jesse Skeens]

Johann,

Many thanks for the comparison.

If you dont mind a couple of examples with just a snare
sample and a fairly long decay would be awesome.

Jesse

[jtienhaara]

Sure no problemo Jesse. Just email it to me at: jtienhaara AT yahoo DOT com.

That goes for anyone else too.

If it's more than 10 megs we may have to transfer it some other way, but hopefully a snare hit is <= 10 megs?

Cheers,

Johann

[Jesse Skeens]

Check your mail.