Analog Mixer Emulation

[OldTimey]

Why hasn't (or if someone has, point me to it) a DAW maker ever created a summing engine that emulates the way an analog board sums signals? (with crosstalk, channel noise, channel saturation etc.) 32 bit fp summing engines are wonderfully perfect in how they go about their business. Companies have emulated all sorts of outboard gear (with varying levels of success, but some truly good processors have come out of this, this is not arguable) and they have emulated "Channel Strips" (uad-1 88rs, duende etc) but these only impart compressor/eq/filter qualities to our mixer channels. So called "character" plugins don't really accomplish this either because they don't account for cross talk and maybe some other factors I'm not mentioning.

I wonder if such a thing would even sound all that good. But I'm curious why it hasn't been done. Despite all the imperfections that go into mixing with a console, some people seem to prefer the sound of it, so why haven't software companies jumped on that?

[James Meeker]

I've thought the same thing. It's probably just around the corner....

It certainly makes for a solid platform for a new DAW... having Meta-Plugins... plugins that control how the DAW sounds as a unit. Imagine mixing your record through a virtual SSL G+ or Trident A Range where it pulls up the whole board--dynamics, EQ, bussing, etc....

[OldTimey]

that it is around the corner, you are probably right. and if done right, would be fun to play around with. (though i imagine whoever comes up with the technology will charge a pretty penny for it.)

[bitman]

I'll bet of all these good things the analog summing does, crosstalk might me the most difficult and processor hungry parameter to model properly.

But yea it's gotta be right around the corner but it has to replace your daw's internal mixer and afaik there is no crossplatform api like vst to do that.

[pigcat]

perhaps a switch between digital clean summing and analog color summing with just a simple button.

[mxeryus]

A kind of Focusrite LiquidConsole (mark my words!), with dynamic convolution of a bunch of consoles like SSL, Helios, Neve, and many others (in no particular order!) would suit the bill. Or a Sintefex Console Replicator....

[Markus Stock]

I think using SSL/Neve/API Plugs on each channel with the Analog Button switched on and the Buss Compressor + something like Colortone Pro (which is excellent in emulating analog gear!) on the Master Fader will bring you pretty close and is already available....

[redroom]

The URS saturation plug in can get you a long way towards a console vibe

[popmann]

Digital "clean"...funny.

[pigcat]

Originally Posted by popmann

Digital "clean"...funny.

How about digital "dirty".thumbsup

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Markus Stock

I think using SSL/Neve/API Plugs on each channel with the Analog Button switched on and the Buss Compressor + something like Colortone Pro (which is excellent in emulating analog gear!) on the Master Fader will bring you pretty close and is already available....

close... but no sigar

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by OldTimey

Why hasn't (or if someone has, point me to it) a DAW maker ever created a summing engine that emulates the way an analog board sums signals? (with crosstalk, channel noise, channel saturation etc.) 32 bit fp summing engines are wonderfully perfect in how they go about their business. Companies have emulated all sorts of outboard gear (with varying levels of success, but some truly good processors have come out of this, this is not arguable) and they have emulated "Channel Strips" (uad-1 88rs, duende etc) but these only impart compressor/eq/filter qualities to our mixer channels. So called "character" plugins don't really accomplish this either because they don't account for cross talk and maybe some other factors I'm not mentioning.

I wonder if such a thing would even sound all that good. But I'm curious why it hasn't been done. Despite all the imperfections that go into mixing with a console, some people seem to prefer the sound of it, so why haven't software companies jumped on that?

My guess is it hasn't been done because A) writing good code takes time and B) time is money and C) most good programmers are logical types who may not see the logic of trying to emulate flaws like crosstalk that would seem to defy imagining any positive value for.

Certainly, of course, crosstalk would be trivial to emulate -- whereas the more generally perceived as potentially desirable phenom of analog-style circuit saturation is -- demonstrably [as you indirectly note] -- difficult or even impossible to get right to the satisfaction of many or most.


People are looking for magical signal degradation here... and it's really hard to make something better by making it worse.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by bitman

I'll bet of all these good things the analog summing does, crosstalk might me the most difficult and processor hungry parameter to model properly.

But yea it's gotta be right around the corner but it has to replace your daw's internal mixer and afaik there is no crossplatform api like vst to do that.

Cross talk is just signal bleed. Wherever you want your signal to crosstalk into -- just direct a bit of that signal into the summing matrix for that destination. Where's the sweat?

You could emulate it with bus sends.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by popmann

Digital "clean"...funny.

What do you mean?

Are you trying to suggest that digital can't get a "clean" transcription of an audio signal or sum multiple signals cleanly?

Not just theory but practice -- as attested to by test gear many, many times more sensitive than any human ear -- show that what digital does well, straight signal capture, it does very well.

And as far as straight summing goes -- one can easily test that summing with null inversion tests. If the 'residue' from such testing is below the level of audibibility, you're summing would, by reasonable definition, be "clean."

Now, to go back to the OP... clearly, people are not necessarily looking for straight, accurate summing, but rather want some of the desirable signal degradation that analog summing is so 'good' at in the opinion of many. And that, to my thinking, revolves to great extent around the putatively desirable degradation offered by analog saturation as well as other analog processes that might be involved like EQ.

Also, since most folks who mix through boards will almost certainly be using analog limiting/compression, there is that crucial issue.

While digital can be shown to offer very accurate transcription and summing -- it is notably less capable/desirable when it comes to the peculiarly non-linear processes at work in compression and/or saturation simulation.

And that I suspect is a real factor when people prefer analog mixed tracks.

[computa]

Originally Posted by Markus Stock

I think using SSL/Neve/API Plugs on each channel with the Analog Button switched on and the Buss Compressor + something like Colortone Pro (which is excellent in emulating analog gear!) on the Master Fader will bring you pretty close and is already available....

there's no saturation or reaction at different levels with colortone and the convolution technique. It's just a static type "EQ".

If waves stuff had a slightly different sound (crosstalk, stereo image, noise, saturation, etc) for each instance u opened up in a project it would get closer to analog.

[OldTimey]

I just feel like it would be fun to play around with. Something as simple as a digital emulation of a tape 4 track, model an old tascam or fostex 4 track, with all the terrible yet charming things they do to signals would be fun. A huge full screen graphic of a 4 track, without the rewinding.

yea sure, i can always get a real 4 track (which i have, but the transport finally died on me), but then i need to rewire everything in my studio around it.

[Markus Stock]

Originally Posted by computa

there's no saturation or reaction at different levels with colortone and the convolution technique. It's just a static type "EQ".

If waves stuff had a slightly different sound (crosstalk, stereo image, noise, saturation, etc) for each instance u opened up in a project it would get closer to analog.

In Colortone Pro you use Blend Mode and the warmth Knob for dynamic reaction to incoming transients...not the real thing of course, but VERY cool and handy to have. To me the "analogizer" Plug In I've tried (and I tried some).

I am still mixing hybrid, but stuff like the Tritone Plugs, Massey and the Waves Console Series makes me think twice of late if its worth to keep my Trident 65 for summing....

[OldTimey]

Originally Posted by computa

there's no saturation or reaction at different levels with colortone and the convolution technique. It's just a static type "EQ".

I'm pretty sure the UAD-1 33609 is modeled to do this...but it takes up 3/4 of whole DSP card!

[rockrev]

If there were a program that turned the Pro Tools mix window into little API knobs, I would be all over that sh!t . . . just because it looked cool! Hell, add some grease markers, masking tape, cigarette burns, and coffee stains . . . even better!

DAW Skins (TM) - I called it!

dj

[Karloff70]

Call me oldfashioned, but if I want a bicycle, I get a bicycle and if I want a desk (and I always do), I'd rather a real one that I can touch and surf than a 'supposed' one hiding in my DAW......

[Dom & Roland]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

If I want a bicycle, I get a bicycle

lol,nice!

[computa]

Originally Posted by OldTimey

I'm pretty sure the UAD-1 33609 is modeled to do this...but it takes up 3/4 of whole DSP card!

of course but UAD is not convolution modelled as I we were talking about colortone's convolution process

[computa]

Originally Posted by Markus Stock

In Colortone Pro you use Blend Mode and the warmth Knob for dynamic reaction to incoming transients...not the real thing of course, but VERY cool and handy to have. To me the "analogizer" Plug In I've tried (and I tried some).....

Cool if it works for u. Ur just turning up the static "eq" preset to cover the transients more. no saturation happening w/ convolution. I went thru the colortone thing for a sec but my stereo image suffered big time because it doesnt react. sounds good on kiks, snares, bass

[pigcat]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Call me oldfashioned, but if I want a bicycle, I get a bicycle and if I want a desk (and I always do), I'd rather a real one that I can touch and surf than a 'supposed' one hiding in my DAW......

so are you saying you don't use any analog emulation plugins at all?

[Bassace]

you forgot to mention hiss emulation too

[Markus Stock]

Originally Posted by computa

Cool if it works for u. Ur just turning up the static "eq" preset to cover the transients more. no saturation happening w/ convolution. I went thru the colortone thing for a sec but my stereo image suffered big time because it doesnt react. sounds good on kiks, snares, bass

The warmth knob on Colortone Pro does add harmonics independent of the Convultion Engine in reaction to the incoming signal. And as we know added harmonics are one of the key elements of Saturation + blend mode does some compression like transient rounding. It's not saturation (Saturation being an extreme fast form of limiting) per se, but pretty close to it. I of course get your point of the staticness of Convultion. But I still think there's right now nothing that sounds so close to the real thing as using covultion in some form (Same with Amp Simulations i.e) whilst I still prefer the real thing I may point out!
The stereo image shrink has more to do with how the freguency range of your mix looks like. Something with strong mids will always sounds more narrow as opposed to something that has more bass and high frequencies, so chosing an Impulse in Colortone Pro that has a strong mid focus and less highs and bass will make your mix sound smaller and more narrow - that's the nature of things.
Whatever, to each his own

I'll probably to some tests soon with my Trident summing and analog SSL Compression vs. Digital summing with Digital SSL Compression and some coloring of the Mix Buss and post some clips....

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by pigcat

so are you saying you don't use any analog emulation plugins at all?

No, but a desk is a thing that comes down to more than its sound, even if there WAS something that could sound like a good desk ITB. I like dials. I like dubbing delays. You can 'perform' on a desk! And its quick and gratifying. Sometimes I like Colourtone on something. Other times it sounds like cheap shite, especially when you stare at the screen at the setting and it says some beautiful piece of gear's name, but sounds nowhere near as good or interesting......causes me emotional conflict and disappointment....good desk never does. If I want tapesound, I put it on tape. Like I say, bicycle........

ISN'T IT CRAZY HOW EVERYONE FOCUSES ON COPYING STUFF VITUALLY THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN REALITY INSTEAD OF JUST USING IT...???

You want a drummer, get a drummer....don't get BFD, get the real thing. If I want a desk I want a desk, not its supposed copied sound characteristic without the actual desk!

[joemeek]

Originally Posted by rockrev

If there were a program that turned the Pro Tools mix window into little API knobs, I would be all over that sh!t . . . just because it looked cool! Hell, add some grease markers, masking tape, cigarette burns, and coffee stains . . . even better!

DAW Skins (TM) - I called it!

dj

Reaper has an API-style skin..a little dark for my taste but funny and cooool...

[OldTimey]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

ISN'T IT CRAZY HOW EVERYONE FOCUSES ON COPYING STUFF VIRTUALLY THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN REALITY INSTEAD OF JUST USING IT...???

(added the 'R' for you)

whatever dude, go use a giant abacus instead of a calculator next time you need to do some heavy math.

Or find some pen pals to whine to instead of coming onto the "Music Computers" board.

seriously i may want a bicycle, but what if i can't ride a bicycle cause i have no legs? are you saying I shouldn't go out and buy a computer game that simulates riding a bike?

[Joe Porto]

Back in the late 90's, Ensoniq released a product called PARIS that was supposed to compete with protools. It worked just like a console. You couldn't hard clip it. You could jack up the channel gain knob and get a good simulation of a saturating transformer. You could slam a channel way past 0db and it would never clip hard.

The system had some die hard fans, despite the sale of Ensoniq to Emu/Creative, the complete lack of support, and the fact that the software developers outright lied about releases and bugfixes that never came.