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-   -   Reverb Plugs vs. Lexicon PCM 90 (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/18839-reverb-plugs-vs-lexicon-pcm-90-a.html)

Nick Morris 24th May 2013 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S (Post 9066041)
I have 9 Lexicon reverbs, Bricasti, Eventide etc. I also own a ton of verb plugins UAD, Lexicon, Altiverb and a mess of others. There is just something in the randomness of Lexicon FX that just no way can be sampled or recreated in a plug-in.
PCM-90 = Sweet

Owning the hardware and plugins, I disagree. It's all the same, one is running its code in its own box, the other running the code ITB.

T_R_S 24th May 2013 08:02 AM

There are differences in the sound from plug-in the PCM 96 sounds nothing like the the Lexicon plug-in there is so much missing from the plug-in that is found in the hardware. The sounds of the tails and density in my 960, Bricasti and Evnentide nothing like in any of my plug-ins.
Even the Even H3000 plug-in does not have the phaser and verb algo's that sounds like no plug-in phaser.
Plus the reverb random modulation in hardware boxes just don't exist in a plugin.

Jantex 24th May 2013 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S (Post 9067686)
There are differences in the sound from plug-in the PCM 96 sounds nothing like the the Lexicon plug-in there is so much missing from the plug-in that is found in the hardware. The sounds of the tails and density in my 960, Bricasti and Evnentide nothing like in any of my plug-ins.
Even the Even H3000 plug-in does not have the phaser and verb algo's that sounds like no plug-in phaser.
Plus the reverb random modulation in hardware boxes just don't exist in a plugin.

I am sorry to say, but this is as biased opinion as it can be. 1+1=2 no matter what machine calculates it...PCM algos were taken directly from PCM 96, when I compared them, they sounded the same provided they were set the same.

thermos 24th May 2013 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S (Post 9067686)
Plus the reverb random modulation in hardware boxes just don't exist in a plugin.

This last statement kind of invalidates all of your other points. They exist in a plugin exactly as they do in the hardware, because the hardware are just plugins that run on a dedicated dsp (speaking of the pcm 96 VS the plugins). I can see how someone might like the idea of another box doing the same job that the plugin is doing, but to say they aren't capable of executing the same code is incorrect.

Tui 24th May 2013 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thermos (Post 9068554)
I can see how someone might like the idea of another box doing the same job that the plugin is doing, but to say they aren't capable of executing the same code is incorrect.

Sure, but AFAIK, apart from the PCM 96, there is no other hardware box that had its algos ported to native formats. Even biggies like Lexicon and Eventide, for one reason or another, don't have access to their old codes anymore - they couldn't port their legacy stuff even if they wanted to.

thermos 25th May 2013 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tui (Post 9068741)
Sure, but AFAIK, apart from the PCM 96, there is no other hardware box that had its algos ported to native formats. Even biggies like Lexicon and Eventide, for one reason or another, don't have access to their old codes anymore - they couldn't port their legacy stuff even if they wanted to.

True. Though he specifically mentioned the pcm 96 which I why I brought it up. Good that there is still a market for hardware boxes though.

T_R_S 25th May 2013 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thermos (Post 9068554)
This last statement kind of invalidates all of your other points. They exist in a plugin exactly as they do in the hardware, because the hardware are just plugins that run on a dedicated dsp (speaking of the pcm 96 VS the plugins). I can see how someone might like the idea of another box doing the same job that the plugin is doing, but to say they aren't capable of executing the same code is incorrect.

There are no chorus algo's in Lexicon PCM plug-in plus the reverb tails do sound the same from the 96 to the leicon plug-in. I have Eventide H3K totally different than the Eventide Factory plugin 80% of the H3K is not in the plug-in
I also have a 960 which again sounds completely different than teh Lexicon plug-in as well. My Eventide Blackhole plugin sounds nothing like the Blackhole preset in my DSP4000. And I have compared my Altiverb Bricasti samples again the reverb tail is very different from my M7. It not going to stop me from using reverb plug-ins but to say they are exactly the same that is clearly not the case.

thermos 25th May 2013 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S (Post 9070117)
There are no chorus algo's in Lexicon PCM plug-in plus the reverb tails do sound the same from the 96 to the leicon plug-in. I have Eventide H3K totally different than the Eventide Factory plugin 80% of the H3K is not in the plug-in
I also have a 960 which again sounds completely different than teh Lexicon plug-in as well. My Eventide Blackhole plugin sounds nothing like the Blackhole preset in my DSP4000. And I have compared my Altiverb Bricasti samples again the reverb tail is very different from my M7. It not going to stop me from using reverb plug-ins but to say they are exactly the same that is clearly not the case.

PCM Native Effects Plug-in Bundle | Lexicon Pro - Legendary Reverb and Effects + Lex PCM bundle= exactly the same code found in the PCM 96. Cool if you say they don't sound the same, but its the same code.

Nick Morris 25th May 2013 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S (Post 9070117)
There are no chorus algo's in Lexicon PCM plug-in plus the reverb tails do sound the same from the 96 to the leicon plug-in. I have Eventide H3K totally different than the Eventide Factory plugin 80% of the H3K is not in the plug-in
I also have a 960 which again sounds completely different than teh Lexicon plug-in as well. My Eventide Blackhole plugin sounds nothing like the Blackhole preset in my DSP4000. And I have compared my Altiverb Bricasti samples again the reverb tail is very different from my M7. It not going to stop me from using reverb plug-ins but to say they are exactly the same that is clearly not the case.

The Bricasti to Altiverb Bricasti sample is not going to sound as nice as the hardware, that's obvious.

When the plugin is running the same algorithm, the hardware and plugin are the same. When they are not, they aren't. Not hard to figure out.

People like what the old algorithms sound like. Plugins that don't have the old code won't sound the same. Look at it the other way now. The old boxes don't have the new algorithms that the plugins have. The old boxes can't sound like the plugins.

I wish I could make my pcm91 sound like my exponential audio reverbs. Can't get this great sound out of any hardware reverbs. ;)

psykostx 26th May 2013 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triez (Post 189048)
Reverb plug-ins are like virtual instruments - they can sound ok if you just load one up and listen, but as soon as you put the real thing beside it you go "Oops, the plug sounds like a thin mp3. I have done a lot of testing to back this up, I have A/B'd the virtual Yamaha CS-80, Prophet 5, MS-20, PPG and Oscar to name a few with the real thing which I have in my studio, and they all sound like papery lifeless tributes to the real machines. Any glossy adverts you see with high end musicians proclaiming that they dumped their CS-80 because the plug in is as good is a load of marketing BS.

Plug in reverbs are the same - you can get a result from them, but you have to work bloody hard. I tried for a while, and got tired if constantly tweaking but never getting the result that I could get immediately by just putting up a Kurzweil Rumour or a TC M2000. I buy up certin cheap boxes I see 2nd hand, such as SRV3030's, TC M.One's etc, and put them in the rack as even these cheap units sound better than plugs. Not to mention the massive reduction in CPU overhead.

Punters do not care or know what gear you have, they know what they hear, and my new favourite hobby is identifying the tracks on the radio that were made in the box with virtual instruments and plug ins against those made with real equipment, and with the exception of some well made stuff done by real pro's, it is easy - One sounds like video, and the other sounds like film.

A rack of Alesis NanoVerbs..kfhkh So much better than 90% of reverb plugins. I thought it was just me that noticed the lack of depth in most plugin reverbs, since they seem very popular. Only plugin verbs I've found useable so far are Breverb, Sonnox, and Room 2016. On voices the Sonnox is so so so good. The Eventide Room 2016 was a disappointment until I stopped using the "mix" knob and started using the effects sends in my DAW... now it's a cool signature sound. Altiverb sounds really great, but I don't have DSP acceleration so it's virtually unuseable.

Hardtoe 26th May 2013 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psykostx (Post 9073299)
Altiverb sounds really great, but I don't have DSP acceleration so it's virtually unuseable.

Dude, you ARE oldskool - what is DSP aceleration?

Do you mean a not ancient CPU? Any modern computer can run Altiverb no sweat (for like the last 5 years at least)

freshflowe

Wilburguy 26th May 2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0nguy (Post 188433)
All,

Have any of you found a reverb plug that will compare or beat an outboard Lexicon PCM90?

I tried D-Verb and its not that good......Reverb One sounded good to me....but a bit "flatter" than the Lexicon.

Thanks,

s0nguy

I had a PCM91. Sold it. Bought the PCM native bundle. Don't miss the PCM91 one bit.

I have Altiverb, IR1, TL Space, Revibe, Reverb 1, Ren Reverb, Sonnox Reverb, Lexicon PCMNative rules them all.

Tui 27th May 2013 12:45 AM

I used to have a PCM 90 but replaced it with a TC M3000. I'm glad I did (the chorus algorithms alone were worth it). Lexicons tend to sound a bit sterile and uninspiring, but perhaps that's just my interpretation. Having said that, the PCM bundle is certainly a worthy contender and more than a substitute for the PCM 90, since the PCM bundle is more versatile.

aramism 27th May 2013 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Morris (Post 9067194)
Owning the hardware and plugins, I disagree. It's all the same, one is running its code in its own box, the other running the code ITB.

i disagree at your disagreement.

there's more to a sound than just an algorithm. even newer hardware units can't nail older ones sounds. pcm 96 on a copy setting of a pcm 70 doesn't sound the same! eventide eclipse can't copy sound of an h3000.

Nick Morris 27th May 2013 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramism (Post 9075797)
i disagree at your disagreement.

there's more to a sound than just an algorithm. even newer hardware units can't nail older ones sounds. pcm 96 on a copy setting of a pcm 70 doesn't sound the same! eventide eclipse can't copy sound of an h3000.

You are misunderstanding that you are comparing different code. Of course it will sound different! They are not meant to sound the same. Use the same algorithm in the hardware and plugin and it will sound the same. That was my point.

BobbyLAvenir 28th June 2013 10:46 AM

Borrowed one of those damn iLok dongles a short while back and manage to get a half decent demo of pcm native, imo it didn't have a patch on the hardware pcm 90 i have, just my opinion. However the relab, different stroy, I'm about to bite on this iLok nonsense as I want to try the slate vbc too so want to have a full demo for at least a week before i sell any hardware just make sure i'm making the right move going software to replace my hardware comps and verbs. I'll def try the pcm native again but it didn't make my jaw drop when i tried it last, Relab did.

Anyway my question is what would be better value and replace my pcm 90 algos in every way guys;

Relab 480 complete vs Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb vs Exponential Audio R2 vs anything else on this level (except Nebula, already got it, love hate thing going on)?

Max budget $400 or £265

Of course I'm going to demo them myself but I'd still appreciate feedback from anyone using these plugs over their Lexi hardware, might save me time as I'm kinda thinking just go Relab and don't waste the time with any more demo plugs?

Cheers

Nick Morris 28th June 2013 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9178961)
Borrowed one of those damn iLok dongles a short while back and manage to get a half decent demo of pcm native, imo it didn't have a patch on the hardware pcm 90 i have, just my opinion. However the relab, different stroy, I'm about to bite on this iLok nonsense as I want to try the slate vbc too so want to have a full demo for at least a week before i sell any hardware just make sure i'm making the right move going software to replace my hardware comps and verbs. I'll def try the pcm native again but it didn't make my jaw drop when i tried it last, Relab did.

Anyway my question is what would be better value and replace my pcm 90 algos in every way guys;

Relab 480 complete vs Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb vs Exponential Audio R2 vs anything else on this level (except Nebula, already got it, love hate thing going on)?

Max budget $400 or £265

Of course I'm going to demo them myself but I'd still appreciate feedback from anyone using these plugs over their Lexi hardware, might save me time as I'm kinda thinking just go Relab and don't waste the time with any more demo plugs?

Cheers

Relab and exponential are at the top of the heap.

Frisbi 28th June 2013 04:08 PM

well I think I tried almost any reverb because I was much unsatisfied by digital reverbs....

after I found 2C Breeze i found satisfaction :)

it's the only one that sounds like a real reverb

(also 2C Aether but it's very heavy for CPU)


2CAudio - Breeze | Simple. Light. Pristine.

Nick Morris 28th June 2013 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisbi (Post 9179647)
well I think I tried almost any reverb because I was much unsatisfied by digital reverbs....

after I found 2C Breeze i found satisfaction :)

it's the only one that sounds like a real reverb

(also 2C Aether but it's very heavy for CPU)


2CAudio - Breeze | Simple. Light. Pristine.

The 2c stuff is also great, just different. I love aether and B2. Need To try breeze.

BobbyLAvenir 3rd July 2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Morris (Post 9179199)
Relab and exponential are at the top of the heap.

Just got an ilok today so I'll be checking out a few plugs, don't have much time though.

Do you think it's worth checking out the Exponential over the Relab?
Which one would give me more and depth miles over time?
Also i'm confused at which exponential verb is the one slutz rave about, phoenix or R2?

cheers

hyposonic 3rd July 2013 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9194162)
Do you think it's worth checking out the Exponential over the Relab?

absolutely.
and not only for the sound. Exponential seems to be very active about improvements, updates, support, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9194162)
Also i'm confused at which exponential verb is the one slutz rave about, phoenix or R2?

both, of course.
but i think most of the surprise came from the simpler and cheaper one.

BobbyLAvenir 3rd July 2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyposonic (Post 9194182)
absolutely.
and not only for the sound. Exponential seems to be very active about improvements, updates, support, etc.



both, of course.

Thanks for the speedy reply, I was going to ask about stability so you've answered that question for me too.

Kinda like the idea of the Relab being one plug for all algos, if the Phoenix can do all the algos in the relab than I'll prob get that without even running a demo/shootout, it's half the price.

Do I really need R2 if I get Phoenix? I'm replacing my Lexicon pcm90 hardware with one of these plugs.

Do you or is anyone else here using both relab complete and the 2 exponential plugs?
Again I can't afford both and I want to make sure what I get is not based on whatever flatters me the most during the short time I'll get to demo/shoot them out against one another.


Cheers

Nick Morris 3rd July 2013 03:29 PM

I would go with exponential over relab if I had to choose just one.


...But I felt I had to buy them all.

Michael Carnes 3rd July 2013 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9194230)
Do I really need R2 if I get Phoenix? I'm replacing my Lexicon pcm90 hardware with one of these plugs.

Pardon me for butting in, but maybe I can help a little. R2 and Phoenix really have a different sound from each other--even though they have many of the same parameters. PhoenixVerb is more 'pure' and R2 is more 'classic'. If you're replacing a PCM90, you might find that PhoenixVerb has a similar vibe (except that it's cleaner and more complex). R2 and the Relab address many of the same needs--a reverb that stands out in a more active way--but they sound different from each other. FWIW, PhoenixVerb seems to find more of a home in acoustic music and (strangely enough) heavy metal. R2 is used in more classic rock and vocal music and also is used in post a fair amount. But that's just a rough outline. There are plenty of people who use them in the exact opposite way!

TS-12 3rd July 2013 07:08 PM

I only tried cubases's, waves, ni, And relab lx480. I found lx480 very useful, especialy on vocals that i didnt even look further

BobbyLAvenir 3rd July 2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Carnes (Post 9194657)
Pardon me for butting in, but maybe I can help a little. R2 and Phoenix really have a different sound from each other--even though they have many of the same parameters. PhoenixVerb is more 'pure' and R2 is more 'classic'. If you're replacing a PCM90, you might find that PhoenixVerb has a similar vibe (except that it's cleaner and more complex). R2 and the Relab address many of the same needs--a reverb that stands out in a more active way--but they sound different from each other. FWIW, PhoenixVerb seems to find more of a home in acoustic music and (strangely enough) heavy metal. R2 is used in more classic rock and vocal music and also is used in post a fair amount. But that's just a rough outline. There are plenty of people who use them in the exact opposite way!

Thanks Michael, i make house music, or edm as they call it now:facepalm:
Anyone else using these plugs for house/edm?

Cheers

BobbyLAvenir 3rd July 2013 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Morris (Post 9194571)
I would go with exponential over relab if I had to choose just one.


...But I felt I had to buy them all.

Thinking LX480 and phoenix, not sure about the one random hall algo in LX480 though, is it worth waiting until i can afford phoenix and relab complete?

Cheers

electro 3rd July 2013 08:27 PM

Audiodamge ADverb
Audio Damage // ADverb

IK Multimedia CSR is said to be based on PCM90
IK Multimedia | Classik Studio Reverb

Michael Carnes 3rd July 2013 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9195368)
Thanks Michael, i make house music, or edm as they call it now:facepalm:
Anyone else using these plugs for house/edm?
Cheers

There are a couple I know of--they use both plugs. I'm sure there are more, but I don't really know how someone uses a plug unless they drop me a line.

thermos 4th July 2013 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir (Post 9195430)
Thinking LX480 and phoenix, not sure about the one random hall algo in LX480 though, is it worth waiting until i can afford phoenix and relab complete?

Cheers

Gotta try them all. For me if I had to pick one out of all 3 of those, it would be R2. Its like the LX-480 but more modern. Though they are all amazing and I have them all!


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